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Perennial Roster Overhauls and Relationship to Postseason Success (Sting's Thread)

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Old
04-05-2013, 05:27 PM
  #126
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I'm pretty excited about this team for the rest of the season and going into next year. Brassard strengthens us down the middle (which has been a weakness for years) and allows Boyle to play wing (where he's better). Clowe brings an element that we haven't had, probably, since Adam Graves. Moore has a lot more upside than people think and Dorsett is a Prust clone. Kreider gets more time to develop and JT Miller has flashes and I think he'll be fine. Really liked him before we drafted him. We'll get Staal back, hopefully by the playoffs and I think this team can compete with anyone in the Eastern conference.

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04-05-2013, 05:30 PM
  #127
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All this back and forth can make ones head spin a bit. I'll say this and consider it accurate.

The current roster core:
Hank
Del Zotto
Staal
Girardi
McDonagh
Stepan
Callahan
Hagelin

and the current prospect core:
Kreider
Miller
Fasth
Linberg
McIlrath
Thomas
....is the best we've had in decades.

The Rangers will NEVER do a bolt off rebuild. It will NEVER happen. EVER.

I hated to part with Dubi and Arty, I was against the deal, but a guy like Nash becomes available, you would be crazy not to go get him at that price. I realize that now...and I'm willing to admit I was wrong. Same with Richards. Who would have figured that a guy with his credentials would mope around like a guy who's had his puppy shot every morning at sunrise. Not me. He was a guy they needed and not getting him would have been the only thing worse than where we are with him now.

For the Rangers, this will be a longer, harder road. We can't suck and tank it for high draft picks like other franchises. Blessing and a curse. It's better than it was, maybe not by much yet, but I think we are getting there. Even if the getting is painfully slow. You role the dice sometimes or you never progress or win.

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04-05-2013, 05:32 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Wamsutta View Post
We're now last year's Rangers only with an infinitely worse Brad Richards and a group of guys who don't know each other at all.
Infinitely worse? He is having a down year. That doesn't make him "infinitely worse." You have no idea how he is going to play next season. Let's wait until we see him play more than 30-something games of a shortened season.

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04-05-2013, 05:38 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
I get what you're saying... but I feel like that is just the attitude of a fanbase that hasn't ever known anything different; so they settle in as a defense mechanism. To me, that's not good enough, and we should be demanding more.

Once you've tasted what its like to be a perennial contender, you won't want anything else.

My father turned me on to the Red Wings (he's from Detroit) when I was younger as a way to help the sting of what I saw to be a brutal Rangers playoff series loss. This was right as they were turning their team around and building a dynasty - and they've been my #2 team since. And, even in their off years, it is an absolute breath of fresh air to watch them when I have the chance - because they are almost always in contention to win it all and competing for the top 4 spots in the conference.

Actually not too happy about the Wings coming to the East next year (even though it makes sense), because it means they'll be playing the Rangers a ton more; and while of course, I'll side with the Rangers, its just easier to not have to pick sides.
Regardless defense mechanism or not it is up to each individual I think to judge what success is for themself.
Everyone knows a D is a crappy grade but for some people it's not the worst grade possible so it's ok. And obviously there's a downside to having your standards be too low. But is this the equivalent of a D or a C or a B-?

I think post lockout ignoring pre lockout it's a B-. I believe within two years I will be giving post lockout an A. Cup is ours! lol. If I look over Sathers entire tenure it's an F.

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04-05-2013, 05:45 PM
  #130
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The big question for me was/is could last year's team have taken the next step if Sather kept it completely, or at least mostly, intact. I mean, if the Nash trade never happened and Prust was resigned, could we expect the Rangers to make it back to the ECF (in a more convincing fashion) or even to the SCF? I personally think the answer is no.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Rangers were extremely lucky last year. They won one goal games at an unsustainable pace, and they scratched and clawed their way past lower seeds before getting exposed by the Devils. I would not have been surprised if, even in a full season, that roster would have taken a large step back this year just due to regression.

That said, I am completely on board with the consistency/anti-churn crowd, assuming you are applying that philosophy to a roster that is capable of growing into something special. I like the current makeup and balance of this group a bit more than last year's, and I'd like to see very few, if any, moves made before the start of next season. Let's get that chemistry back and let it grow with what looks to be a more talented group holistically speaking.

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04-06-2013, 08:43 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
The big question for me was/is could last year's team have taken the next step if Sather kept it completely, or at least mostly, intact. I mean, if the Nash trade never happened and Prust was resigned, could we expect the Rangers to make it back to the ECF (in a more convincing fashion) or even to the SCF? I personally think the answer is no.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Rangers were extremely lucky last year. They won one goal games at an unsustainable pace, and they scratched and clawed their way past lower seeds before getting exposed by the Devils. I would not have been surprised if, even in a full season, that roster would have taken a large step back this year just due to regression.

That said, I am completely on board with the consistency/anti-churn crowd, assuming you are applying that philosophy to a roster that is capable of growing into something special. I like the current makeup and balance of this group a bit more than last year's, and I'd like to see very few, if any, moves made before the start of next season. Let's get that chemistry back and let it grow with what looks to be a more talented group holistically speaking.
Terrific post.

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04-06-2013, 09:03 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
All this back and forth can make ones head spin a bit. I'll say this and consider it accurate.

The current roster core:
Hank
Del Zotto
Staal
Girardi
McDonagh
Stepan
Callahan
Hagelin

and the current prospect core:
Kreider
Miller
Fasth
Linberg
McIlrath
Thomas
....is the best we've had in decades.
.
Is that really saying much?

It also pales in comparison to the core/prospects of the early 90's, which led to the only team to win a Cup in 70+ years.

And, really, isnt that the main objective? At least I think it is -- reading this thread would lead you to believe its not in the minds of a lot of fans.

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04-06-2013, 09:15 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Terrific post.
Yes, this is a very nice post.

Both game 7s between the Caps and Sens could've been decided with the flip of a coin. We easily could've been tossed in the 1st or 2nd rounds.

I'd like think that we're a more skilled version of last years team:

Nash > Gaborik regrading overall play
Clowe > Dubinsky
Brassard ? Anisimov (Not sure about this one, but Brassard makes some sweet passes)
Dorsett > Prust
Stepan and Hagelin are playing well
We now have our 6th D-man with Moore
Zuccarello is back, injecting us with more offense
etc.

I have never really noticed the major roster overhauls until Sting and others mentioned it.

Between 2005-2006 and 2007-2008, we built around Jagr and friends. Then, we decided to build around Drury and Gomez. Then Gomez goes in the 2009 offseason and we bring in Gaborik. We begin to build a team with Gaborik, Stepan, Callahan, Boyle, Richards, etc. Then, this past offseason we deal Dubinsky and Anisimov, solid bottom 6 players, for a superstar in Nash, bring in Pyatt, Asham and Halpern. We let go of Prust and Fedotenko, very good utility players. We're ready for the Cup! Not really, because we underachieve and trade Gaborik for 3 new faces and trade picks for Clowe. Another roster turnover. We should probably try maintaining a roster few some years before we keep trying to change it.

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Old
04-06-2013, 09:17 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Yes, this is a very nice post.

Both game 7s between the Caps and Sens could've been decided with the flip of a coin. We easily could've been tossed in the 1st or 2nd rounds.

I'd like think that we're a more skilled version of last years team:

Nash > Gaborik regrading overall play
Clowe > Dubinsky
Brassard ? Anisimov (Not sure about this one, but Brassard makes some sweet passes)
Dorsett > Prust
Stepan and Hagelin are playing well
We now have our 6th D-man with Moore
Zuccarello is back, injecting us with more offense
etc.

I have never really noticed the major roster overhauls until Sting and others mentioned it.

Between 2005-2006 and 2007-2008, we built around Jagr and friends. Then, we decided to build around Drury and Gomez. Then Gomez goes in the 2009 offseason and we bring in Gaborik. We begin to build a team with Gaborik, Stepan, Callahan, Boyle, Richards, etc. Then, this past offseason we deal Dubinsky and Anisimov, solid bottom 6 players, for a superstar in Nash, bring in Pyatt, Asham and Halpern. We let go of Prust and Fedotenko, very good utility players. We're ready for the Cup! Not really, because we underachieve and trade Gaborik for 3 new faces and trade picks for Clowe. Another roster turnover. We should probably try maintaining a roster few some years before we keep trying to change it.
The common denominator to the poor roster moves since the lockout is management's complete overreaction to modest tastes of success. None more egregious than thinking those Jagr teams could compete for a cup and bringing in Gomez and Drury at superstar rates.

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Old
04-06-2013, 09:25 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The common denominator to the poor roster moves since the lockout is management's complete overreaction to modest tastes of success. None more egregious than thinking those Jagr teams could compete for a cup and bringing in Gomez and Drury at superstar rates.
Patchwork, essentially.

The 2005-2006 season was not supposed to be successful, but we made the playoffs.

So they tried to "build" a Cup contending team by patching the holes, rather than realizing it was more of a lightning-in-a-bottle thing. Is that was you're saying?

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04-06-2013, 09:38 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Patchwork, essentially.

The 2005-2006 season was not supposed to be successful, but we made the playoffs.

So they tried to "build" a Cup contending team by patching the holes, rather than realizing it was more of a lightning-in-a-bottle thing. Is that was you're saying?
Somewhat.

Basically, I think its ridiculous that folks who have made it to the top levels of NHL management thought that squad was giving $85+ to Drury/Gomez away from legitimately competing for a cup.

Those teams were less lightning in a bottle and more a one-line squad with a great goaltender.

Overall, Sather has given me no confidence that he can walk and chew gum at the same time as an executive. When one hole opens, he fixes it (usually poorly), and another hole usually opens. We are currently in a vicious cycle of swinging between top-end talent and depth.

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04-06-2013, 09:47 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Somewhat.

Basically, I think its ridiculous that folks who have made it to the top levels of NHL management thought that squad was giving $85+ to Drury/Gomez away from legitimately competing for a cup.

Those teams were less lightning in a bottle and more a one-line squad with a great goaltender.

Overall, Sather has given me no confidence that he can walk and chew gum at the same time as an executive. When one hole opens, he fixes it (usually poorly), and another hole usually opens. We are currently in a vicious cycle of swinging between top-end talent and depth.
He's done a decent job of fixing his mistakes - now if only he wouldn't make them in the first place.....

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04-06-2013, 10:23 AM
  #138
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We are currently in a vicious cycle of swinging between top-end talent and depth.
That's the center of the issues certainly.

Hopefully this is the end of that cycle as they have been able to draft a lot of very solid depth players. They traded some to get Nash, and moved Gaborik to get it back. If this trade works out, and a few more prospects step up to the plate, things may finally level out a bit.

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04-06-2013, 03:13 PM
  #139
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Is that really saying much?

It also pales in comparison to the core/prospects of the early 90's, which led to the only team to win a Cup in 70+ years.

And, really, isnt that the main objective? At least I think it is -- reading this thread would lead you to believe its not in the minds of a lot of fans.
That's b/c while it's the main goal it's not the only goal and there are other ways to garner enjoyment from cheering for a team other than judging whether they were the absolute best. There is nothing wrong with demanding nothing less than a cup but it's unrealistic to act as if all fans are demanding the same thing. We might crave it and we might fly into a fit of euphoria when it happens but there are many ways to be satsified with a teams performance.

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04-06-2013, 03:16 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Yes, this is a very nice post.

Both game 7s between the Caps and Sens could've been decided with the flip of a coin. We easily could've been tossed in the 1st or 2nd rounds.
.
This is exactly why I don't think the Devs exposed us by any means. All teams are exposed it's just a matter of whether you won the round or not. If the Sens get one more goal they win but because they missed out on one single goal they weren't the ones to expose us? Same happened with washington and hell we easily could have won two of the devs games we lost. To me exposed means you had such a tactical advanatge that the other team looks lost and loses bad. We were a great team. The Devs were a great team. We played a tough series and lost. I guess it's just a glass half full vs half empty way of thinking.

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04-06-2013, 03:42 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Yes, this is a very nice post.

I have never really noticed the major roster overhauls until Sting and others mentioned it.

Between 2005-2006 and 2007-2008, we built around Jagr and friends. Then, we decided to build around Drury and Gomez. Then Gomez goes in the 2009 offseason and we bring in Gaborik. We begin to build a team with Gaborik, Stepan, Callahan, Boyle, Richards, etc. Then, this past offseason we deal Dubinsky and Anisimov, solid bottom 6 players, for a superstar in Nash, bring in Pyatt, Asham and Halpern. We let go of Prust and Fedotenko, very good utility players. We're ready for the Cup! Not really, because we underachieve and trade Gaborik for 3 new faces and trade picks for Clowe. Another roster turnover. We should probably try maintaining a roster few some years before we keep trying to change it.
Agreed, good post SBOB.

The roster overhauls have extended far beyond 2005-06 though, Jabroni - this is not just a post-lockout phenomenon with Sather (or this organization for that matter). His love for signing new free agents is an annual thing in the offseason.

In 2001-2002 he brings in Lindros, Bure, Rucinsky, Poti, Berard, Murray, Barnaby

2002-2003 he brings back Kovalev, gets Anson Carter, signs Holik and Kasparaitis, and picks up Mironov and bunch of other ****** fill in pieces.

2003-2004 its Jagr, gets Sandy McCarthy back, Mike Green and even more ****** pieces.

We haven't had a stable core for Sather's entire tenure until the past 2-3 years with the development of our own prospects, much less a stable roster.

And don't even get me started on Neil Smith.

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04-06-2013, 04:04 PM
  #142
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Synergy27's post is spot on.. i think eventually we had to make changes and with the changes this deadline that we made.. i feel we're a deeper and more proven team..most of all we're still young!!

it also helps that Stepan and Hags took a giant leap this year in production and larger roles with the team... with that said with the changes we made and their development this team is deeper and better for the long run..

we have to gain chemistry and see where we're at going into next year.. we really need Kreider to make that jump and show he can score and i think this team takes that step on the way to the promise land..

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04-06-2013, 04:07 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
Agreed, good post SBOB.

The roster overhauls have extended far beyond 2005-06 though, Jabroni - this is not just a post-lockout phenomenon with Sather (or this organization for that matter). His love for signing new free agents is an annual thing in the offseason.

In 2001-2002 he brings in Lindros, Bure, Rucinsky, Poti, Berard, Murray, Barnaby

2002-2003 he brings back Kovalev, gets Anson Carter, signs Holik and Kasparaitis, and picks up Mironov and bunch of other ****** fill in pieces.

2003-2004 its Jagr, gets Sandy McCarthy back, Mike Green and even more ****** pieces.

We haven't had a stable core for Sather's entire tenure until the past 2-3 years with the development of our own prospects, much less a stable roster.

And don't even get me started on Neil Smith.
I only started watching the Rangers post-lockout in 2005. Fortunately, I didn't suffer through the "Dark Ages", but what you said gives even more support to Sting's concept.

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04-06-2013, 04:52 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Is that really saying much?

It also pales in comparison to the core/prospects of the early 90's, which led to the only team to win a Cup in 70+ years.

And, really, isnt that the main objective? At least I think it is -- reading this thread would lead you to believe its not in the minds of a lot of fans.
Yes, it is saying something. How much is up to you.

From where we were in the spring of '04, I believe we've come a very long way. Proper drafting and development are now the rule in the organization rather than the exception as it certainly was then. We had nothing close to the skill that Clark and Gorton benefit our scouting, drafts, and development with now. The Rangers were the butt of nearly an endless stream of jokes back then. Not so much now....except maybe on this board. Some of them very well deserved.

In retrospect, the prospects from the early 90's (Leetch, Amonte, Richter, Zubov, et. al.) were a solid, solid bunch. We may sit back and say the same of this current crop down the road as well. But Without over thinking it, this is the best prospect group we've had in two decades. Just my opinion.

I think we can all agree on the objective. Everyone here wants to win the cup. Suggesting otherwise is a bit silly. There is certainly more than one way to get there.

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