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14 teams..?

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Old
04-02-2013, 10:10 AM
  #1
Teus
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14 teams..?

It's mentioned in media weekly, but when will it finally happen?

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/gruppsi...rtikel=5472836
http://bloggar.expressen.se/nystrom/...s-till-14-lag/
http://www.sydsvenskan.se/sport/isho...reppet-saknas/

I think this year's Kvalserien once against showed that there is room for more than 12 teams in our top division. Örebro, 6th placed in Allsvenskan, got promoted to the SEL and so did Leksand. It's not like 5 years ago, when some top Allsvenskan teams didn't even want to be promoted. Now we have a bunch of teams aiming for the SEL and the gap between the leagues just gets smaller and smaller.

I think there's a great opportunity to promote the SEL as a league for all of Sweden with teams all over the country and an increase to 14 teams just adds to this. The lost money, due to two more teams sharing the TV deal, should easily be covered with the added range/exposure for the teams' sponsors and the broadcasting companies thanks to 2 more teams (and maybe cities).

What I think:

SEL:
11-13 to Kvalserien
14 to Allsvenskan

Hockeyallsvenskan:
1 to SEL
2-3 to Kvalserien
4-7 competing for last spot in Kvalserien

I remember reading earlier this year that HV71 wanted to make it tougher to get relegated from the SEL. I actually think something like what I mentioned above will be healthier for both SEL and Allsvenska teams as the relegation won't be as rough as you have a better chance of getting promoted again.

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04-02-2013, 10:32 AM
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First of all, agree 14 teams is long due.

What I want.

Elitserien:
1-6: Playoffs
7-10: Wildcard round, 7vs10, 8vs9, bo3.
11: Season over
12-13: Qualies
14: Buh bye.

Allsvenskan:
1: Promoted
2-5: Qualies

-Rewards Allsvenskan's winner, punishes Elitserien's bottom dweller and removes the concept of "preparing for Kvalserien" altogether.
-The Wildcard round brings competition into the regular season standings to the very end with battles for #1, top4, top6, top10, top11 and top13.
-The Wildcard round is sorted out during the "rest week" before the playoffs, so it doesn't affect the length of the season.
-No Kvalserien team will have to wait for some Allsvenskan playoff round to determine the last team, so there's no advantage or disadvantage in having to wait/get right at it.

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04-02-2013, 12:27 PM
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BPilgrim
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I'm not totally convinced that 14 teams is the right way to go. If you look at this season Rögle and Timrå were too bad to sustain a qualitative league over 55 games. I would prefer if it was easier to be demoted/promoted but still 12 teams. If you expand to 14 teams we risk having the same scenario as Allsvenskan in football were there's a few teams that just isn't good enough over a long run. It would probably also hurt the brand Allsvenskan (ice hockey) which has done a really good job promoting the league and the teams -- what if the that series would only contain teams like Karlskrona, Sundsvall, Asplöven etcetera? That could result in lower incomes for that league and those team, creating an even bigger gap between Elitserien and Allsvenskan.

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04-02-2013, 01:42 PM
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Jussi
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What's the financial situation of teams in Allsvenskan? A poster at the Finnish jatkoaika.com forums said last week he had talked to two guys working for the Swedish hockey federation and that they were very worried about the near future of few unnamed teams there. Grave fears of bankruptcy. They said there were several reasons but the biggest one was Kvalserien and teams economically unhealthy manners in trying to get into that.

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Old
04-02-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
What's the financial situation of teams in Allsvenskan? A poster at the Finnish jatkoaika.com forums said last week he had talked to two guys working for the Swedish hockey federation and that they were very worried about the near future of few unnamed teams there. Grave fears of bankruptcy. They said there were several reasons but the biggest one was Kvalserien and teams economically unhealthy manners in trying to get into that.
Timrå has really poor economy(now demoted), and Leksand has all but spent the bank to get back to Elitserien, and finally did. AIK and a few others are also in far from good shape I would think. Overall it's a no-win business for the most part, just keeping it afloat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPilgrim View Post
I'm not totally convinced that 14 teams is the right way to go. If you look at this season Rögle and Timrå were too bad to sustain a qualitative league over 55 games. I would prefer if it was easier to be demoted/promoted but still 12 teams. If you expand to 14 teams we risk having the same scenario as Allsvenskan in football were there's a few teams that just isn't good enough over a long run. It would probably also hurt the brand Allsvenskan (ice hockey) which has done a really good job promoting the league and the teams -- what if the that series would only contain teams like Karlskrona, Sundsvall, Asplöven etcetera? That could result in lower incomes for that league and those team, creating an even bigger gap between Elitserien and Allsvenskan.
With 14 teams, there would still be at least five of Västerås, Rögle, Timrå, Djurgården, Malmö, Mora, Karlskoga etc. left for Allsvenskan. And now we have Björklöven and Hammarby marching back aswell. There are probably around 20 teams in total with a direct intention to try and play/stay in Elitserien and has a building for it. So there's gonna be good teams/cities on the outside even with 14.

And isn't that what we ultimately want, a little bigger gap between the 1st and 2nd tier? I can say right away that the emergence of Allsvenskan as a league has taken away from my interest in Elitserien. I don't see how that is any good either.

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04-02-2013, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
And isn't that what we ultimately want, a little bigger gap between the 1st and 2nd tier? I can say right away that the emergence of Allsvenskan as a league has taken away from my interest in Elitserien. I don't see how that is any good either.
Kvalserien outside of the cities where the playoff teams comes from, tend to get more media attention than the playoffs themselves when kvalserien is close (not like this year). I enjoy it, it's exciting, but for the good of Swedish hockey, getting Djurgården and Malmö up is pretty important. 2 teams that draws a lot of people, and I'm pretty sure Malmö would be competing for number 1 spectator spot if they had team in Elitserien.

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04-03-2013, 05:09 AM
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A year ago expanding the SEL would have made a lot of sense. The league seemed to get more even every year. Then came the 2012-2013 season and all of a sudden we were back where we were ten years ago or so, with the bottom teams being so bad that we got four teams with more than 100 points (that's a first I think) and one with 94 points.

The thing to do right now is not add more teams, it's to try and make those you have better to make the product better. Hopefully the new CBA rules for drafted European players and the removed limit on non- EU players can fix this, but we have to wait and see.

As for the direct demotion... we are probably not gonna see that one. I remember seeing something about the SEL teams blaming the fear of relegation as the main reason why so many teams play defensive, boring, hockey. As I understand it they are looking at options for making relegation less likely or to make the financial hit of demotion less hard. Automatic demotion doesn't really go hand in hand with this.

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04-03-2013, 05:16 AM
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Seen from abroad, the situation in Sweden looks very good. Having a strong second tier allows for good opportunities for player development and brings high level hockey (and thus interest for the sport) all around the country. I would love it if in Switzerland we had 5 or 6 teams trying to get promoted every year (we only have one, it doesn't make the NLB very exciting if you don't actively root for a team).

I can see why people would like to see teams such as Malmö or Djurgården in Eliteserien, but even with a 14 teams league they wouldn't have made it anyway.

Just my foreign two cents (or two kronor)

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04-03-2013, 06:56 AM
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Teus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPilgrim View Post
I'm not totally convinced that 14 teams is the right way to go. If you look at this season Rögle and Timrå were too bad to sustain a qualitative league over 55 games. I would prefer if it was easier to be demoted/promoted but still 12 teams. If you expand to 14 teams we risk having the same scenario as Allsvenskan in football were there's a few teams that just isn't good enough over a long run. It would probably also hurt the brand Allsvenskan (ice hockey) which has done a really good job promoting the league and the teams -- what if the that series would only contain teams like Karlskrona, Sundsvall, Asplöven etcetera? That could result in lower incomes for that league and those team, creating an even bigger gap between Elitserien and Allsvenskan.
I think the depth in terms of quality is a lot bigger in Swedish hockey than in Swedish football, which makes it hard to compare the SEL with Allsvenskan in football.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
What's the financial situation of teams in Allsvenskan? A poster at the Finnish jatkoaika.com forums said last week he had talked to two guys working for the Swedish hockey federation and that they were very worried about the near future of few unnamed teams there. Grave fears of bankruptcy. They said there were several reasons but the biggest one was Kvalserien and teams economically unhealthy manners in trying to get into that.
One team drops (or almost drops) every other season due to economical reasons.

Some I can think of on top of my head:
12-13: Almost Leksand
11-12: Borås and almost Malmö
09-10: Björklöven
08-09: Almost Malmö
07-08: Nyköping
05-06: Halmstad
03-04: AIK

Spreading out the TV money thanks to more teams going up and down between the leagues would be healthy for Swedish hockey I think.

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04-03-2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teus View Post
Spreading out the TV money thanks to more teams going up and down between the leagues would be healthy for Swedish hockey I think.
And unlikely to happen. The big forces of Swedish hockey want an even bigger piece, not spreading it around further.

It's also starting to become a TV battle between Cmore and Viasat. Every single Allsvenskan game is televised or streamed now. That multi-platform deal for Allsvenskan will only continue to get more lucrative, and the gap between the leagues will get smaller with the current format. So really, the two leagues are not co-operating, they are competing against each other. Other than the guidelines the federation has set up, they set their own rules. That might be seen as healthy competition, but I'm not so sure it is.

Let's play..

Elitserien with:
HV
Frölunda
Färjestad
MoDo
Luleå
Skellefteå
Linköping
Brynäs
Växjö
Örebro
Timrå
Karlskoga

Left for Allsvenskan:
Djurgården
Leksand
AIK
Malmö
Södertälje
Rögle
Västerås
Björklöven
Hammarby
Mora
Troja/Ljungby
Almtuna
Oskarshamn
Karlskrona

Yeah, it's a little unreasonable, but far from impossible. This scenario could happen as soon as the 14/15 season, and it would "only" take a Leksand/AIK demotion, Karlskoga/Timrå promotion. Hammarby back would just be the cherry on the top. How would that Elitserien season fare, competiting against Stockholm derbies, Siljan derby, Skåne derby, Uppsala, Västerås, Södertälje, Björklöven and smaller teams with solid fanbases?

If you're not proactive you could very well end up with two leagues that go head to head sooner than you think. I want a top division, not 1a, 1b.

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04-04-2013, 03:37 AM
  #11
Teus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
And unlikely to happen. The big forces of Swedish hockey want an even bigger piece, not spreading it around further.

It's also starting to become a TV battle between Cmore and Viasat. Every single Allsvenskan game is televised or streamed now. That multi-platform deal for Allsvenskan will only continue to get more lucrative, and the gap between the leagues will get smaller with the current format. So really, the two leagues are not co-operating, they are competing against each other. Other than the guidelines the federation has set up, they set their own rules. That might be seen as healthy competition, but I'm not so sure it is.

Let's play..

Elitserien with:
HV
Frölunda
Färjestad
MoDo
Luleå
Skellefteå
Linköping
Brynäs
Växjö
Örebro
Timrå
Karlskoga

Left for Allsvenskan:
Djurgården
Leksand
AIK
Malmö
Södertälje
Rögle
Västerås
Björklöven
Hammarby
Mora
Troja/Ljungby
Almtuna
Oskarshamn
Karlskrona

Yeah, it's a little unreasonable, but far from impossible. This scenario could happen as soon as the 14/15 season, and it would "only" take a Leksand/AIK demotion, Karlskoga/Timrå promotion. Hammarby back would just be the cherry on the top. How would that Elitserien season fare, competiting against Stockholm derbies, Siljan derby, Skåne derby, Uppsala, Västerås, Södertälje, Björklöven and smaller teams with solid fanbases?

If you're not proactive you could very well end up with two leagues that go head to head sooner than you think. I want a top division, not 1a, 1b.
Maybe next step after that would be Allsvenskan wanting a transfer agreement with the SEL.

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04-06-2013, 09:50 AM
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I would love to see a more NHL inspired idea for sweden, some big changes in the leagues. Maybe even having a few games every regular season between the SEL and Allsvenskan teams to spread the two leagues over the country. (There is alot of hockey fanatic small places out there) Hockey in Sweden need some kind of radical change, just 14 teams would not do that but just destorying the product Allsvenskan has become in later years.

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04-06-2013, 12:46 PM
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svartgul
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How about a much larger Nordic league with, say 20 teams in two divisions, a northern with mostly eastern swedish teams and some finnish ones, a southern division with some danish and norwegian teams thrown in.

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04-06-2013, 12:55 PM
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How about a much larger Nordic league with, say 20 teams in two divisions, a northern with mostly eastern swedish teams and some finnish ones, a southern division with some danish and norwegian teams thrown in.
Nope.

Why would Finland be content with just that?

If a nordic league is to work there has to be an eastern and western division. Eastern = Swedish. Western = Finish. And somewhere in the mix a Danish and a Norweigian team.

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04-06-2013, 01:21 PM
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I know you are all against KHL, but you should consider it as option.

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04-06-2013, 01:43 PM
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If we want to destroy Swedish hockey, it sure is an option.

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04-06-2013, 02:08 PM
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I know you are all against KHL, but you should consider it as option.
No mate it's not even an option. We would have the same attendence as in European trophy

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04-06-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
Nope.

Why would Finland be content with just that?

If a nordic league is to work there has to be an eastern and western division. Eastern = Swedish. Western = Finish. And somewhere in the mix a Danish and a Norweigian team.
Uhm, that's exactly what just I said. The northern swedish division would constitute northern/eastern swedish teams and finnish ones, and the southern one would include southern swedish teams and danish/norwegian ones. Swedish hockey is better all around and financially stronger than the nordic neighbors so a nordic league would include mostly swedish teams for it to work, at least initinially.

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04-06-2013, 03:33 PM
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No mate it's not even an option. We would have the same attendence as in European trophy
I agree, KHL is just a new NHL, where money matters more than fans.

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04-06-2013, 03:33 PM
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Personally I am not interested in seeing the SEL merge with FEL or KHL or something similar. I am perfectly fine watching Swedish teams play other Swedish teams. Expand the league to 14 teams? I dont know, I am not really against it my only problem is that we might lower the quality of the whole league by doing so. Some times less is more. But I have watched some of Allsvenskan this year and there are a lot of well supported teams with nice arenas in Sweden so it might work.

I would like to see a Champions League with hockey. if it works in football, basketball and handball why the hell can it not work with hockey?

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04-06-2013, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svartgul View Post
Uhm, that's exactly what just I said. The northern swedish division would constitute northern/eastern swedish teams and finnish ones, and the southern one would include southern swedish teams and danish/norwegian ones. Swedish hockey is better all around and financially stronger than the nordic neighbors so a nordic league would include mostly swedish teams for it to work, at least initinially.
So who gets included? Just wondering cuz skåne alone would fill this league a few times. Unless ur just talking about an additional even bigger increase in elitserien.

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04-06-2013, 03:43 PM
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I would like to see a Champions League with hockey. if it works in football, basketball and handball why the hell can it not work with hockey?
Much bigger sports ainec

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04-06-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post

I would like to see a Champions League with hockey. if it works in football, basketball and handball why the hell can it not work with hockey?
Why? Because Europe does not have money for it. Only Russians have. As I can see, you are against cooperating with KHL, so forget for Champions League. It wont happen without russian/KHL support.

I dont know if you guys realise it, but IIHF has been doing last 2 years what KHL wants. So, no Champions League, no Nordic League, nothing.

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04-06-2013, 05:07 PM
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vorky has found this thread, let's all bow our heads to mighty mother Russia.


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04-06-2013, 05:38 PM
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Does our favorite russian remind anyone else of this lovely creature?


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