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All Encompassing Tortorella Thread Pt. II

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Old
04-06-2013, 05:10 PM
  #901
Son of Steinbrenner
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
He's not wasting them, he's using them.
No he's wasting them. It's a waste to use them in the first period for an icing. Do you think that's going to be the ONLY icing of the game? I can see using a timeout in the 2nd period because of the long change. I can see using a timeout in the 3rd period but the 1st period it's called wasting a timeout.

I'm all for using a time out to shake up the team at any point in a game because a team will do that MAYBE 3 or 4 times a year. Torts treats timeouts like he has more than 1.....

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04-06-2013, 05:14 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
No he's wasting them. It's a waste to use them in the first period for an icing. Do you think that's going to be the ONLY icing of the game? I can see using a timeout in the 2nd period because of the long change. I can see using a timeout in the 3rd period but the 1st period it's called wasting a timeout.

I'm all for using a time out to shake up the team at any point in a game because a team will do that MAYBE 3 or 4 times a year. Torts treats timeouts like he has more than 1.....
Can you see using it in the first period to set a tone for the rest of the game? Every period matters, every goal matters, every defensive zone draw matters. There's no waste when the alternative is getting scored on.

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04-06-2013, 05:23 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Can you see using it in the first period to set a tone for the rest of the game? Every period matters, every goal matters, every defensive zone draw matters. There's no waste when the alternative is getting scored on.
Yawn....

Do you think when the Rangers ice the puck in the 1st period that's going to be the last icing of the game?

I already stated I can see using a timeout at any point of the game to shake up the team because that only should happen 3 or 4 times a year. That's different because a team isn't going to do that often. Torts burns thru timeouts. If the players can't handle a long shift or a big faceoff after an icing during the 1st period that's a huge problem that goes beyond this conversation.

If the Rangers can't handle getting scored on in the 1st period because of an icing than the coach is the problem. It shows he has no faith in the players.

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04-06-2013, 05:23 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
The strategy in the D zone, which is the cause of the poor breakouts, isn't changing because this team was 3rd in GA/G last year and is currently 4th this year. The D zone strategy is working and shouldn't be overhauled IMO. Maybe they should practice breakouts more, maybe not. I have next to no idea how much they work on any specific thing in practice and I strongly suspect that nobody around here does.
i think our vezina winning goalie is a main part of that statistic. this is what i mean though, at what point is it time to maybe sacrifice some defense to generate more offense? 30th in goals for, and torts hasn't changed any part of his strategy. he's bad at adapting.

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04-06-2013, 05:36 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Yawn....

Do you think when the Rangers ice the puck in the 1st period that's going to be the last icing of the game?

I already stated I can see using a timeout at any point of the game to shake up the team because that only should happen 3 or 4 times a year. That's different because a team isn't going to do that often. Torts burns thru timeouts. If the players can't handle a long shift or a big faceoff after an icing during the 1st period that's a huge problem that goes beyond this conversation.

If the Rangers can't handle getting scored on in the 1st period because of an icing than the coach is the problem. It shows he has no faith in the players.
That's absurd. Next you're going to say holding practices shows the coach has no faith in his players. Talking to them before the game shows no faith. Talking to them on the bench shows no faith.

You're mistaking displays of no faith, with coaching.

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04-06-2013, 05:41 PM
  #906
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Thought it was a good TO - the players on ice were tired and running around. Allowing a first goal there could change the game. I was glad to see them get a breather.

I don't love everything about our coach, but that seemed like a solid move. This isn't like football or hopes where you need keep some TOs for the end of the game.

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04-06-2013, 05:44 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
That's absurd. Next you're going to say holding practices shows the coach has no faith in his players. Talking to them before the game shows no faith. Talking to them on the bench shows no faith.

You're mistaking displays of no faith, with coaching.

The only thing that's absurd about this conversation is somebody trying to justify using a timeout after an icing...in the first period.

Don't ever try to put words in my mouth. Stop with the straw man argument. I pointed to one thing that Torts does that is annoying. I backed it up with a reasonable argument. It Torts had faith in his players conditioning he wouldn't use the time out in the 1st period. I don't have the major hyperbole issues that most fans have with Torts. Don't try to paint this picture when you don't have any idea what I'm thinking or even talking about. Should I type slow so you understand? It's... not... coaching... when... you ...call.. a. ..timeout.. for.. an.... icing....in..the...first....period....you...only.. get..1...timeout...during...a...game....so...it's. ..stupid...to..use...it...during...the...1st...per iod...because...you...will...probably...need...it. ..during...another...more...important....part...of ...the...game....

Does that help you?

No...

ok...

In the second period a team has the long change. It's smarter to keep that timeout in your pocket because the team will probably have to ice the puck during that period....It's smarter to save it for the 3rd period because a team may need it to rest guys for an important power play or down by a goal in the last minute of the game. Every minute is important but some minutes of a game are more important than others. Why don't teams use a timeout for the first power play of the game in the 1st period?

Wasting timeouts is something Torts does. It's has burned the Rangers in the past and will burn them again.


Last edited by Son of Steinbrenner: 04-06-2013 at 05:53 PM.
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04-06-2013, 05:46 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
The only thing that's absurd about this conversation is somebody trying to justify using a timeout after an icing...in the first period.

Don't ever try to put words in my mouth. Stop with the straw man argument. I pointed to one thing that Torts does that is annoying. I backed it up with a reasonable argument. It Torts had faith in his players conditioning he wouldn't use the time out in the 1st period. I don't have the major hyperbole issues that most fans have with Torts. Don't try to pain this picture when you don't have any idea what I'm thinking or even talking about. Should I type slow so you understand? It's... not... coaching... when... you ...call.. a. ..timeout.. for.. an.... icing....in..the...first....period....you...only.. get..1...timeout...during...a...game....so...it's. ..stupid...to..use...it...during...the...1st...per iod...because...you...will...probably...need...it. ..during...another...more...important....part...of ...the...game....
im convinced kel is john tortorella

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04-06-2013, 05:52 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by Ryan McDonut View Post
im convinced kel is john tortorella
I don't even know who Kel is. Does he just defend Torts from all posters? If so I'm just wasting my time.....

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04-06-2013, 10:59 PM
  #910
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Torts just gets lonely sometimes and wants everybody to be together.

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04-06-2013, 11:01 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
The only thing that's absurd about this conversation is somebody trying to justify using a timeout after an icing...in the first period.

Don't ever try to put words in my mouth. Stop with the straw man argument. I pointed to one thing that Torts does that is annoying. I backed it up with a reasonable argument. It Torts had faith in his players conditioning he wouldn't use the time out in the 1st period. I don't have the major hyperbole issues that most fans have with Torts. Don't try to paint this picture when you don't have any idea what I'm thinking or even talking about. Should I type slow so you understand? It's... not... coaching... when... you ...call.. a. ..timeout.. for.. an.... icing....in..the...first....period....you...only.. get..1...timeout...during...a...game....so...it's. ..stupid...to..use...it...during...the...1st...per iod...because...you...will...probably...need...it. ..during...another...more...important....part...of ...the...game....

Does that help you?

No...

ok...

In the second period a team has the long change. It's smarter to keep that timeout in your pocket because the team will probably have to ice the puck during that period....It's smarter to save it for the 3rd period because a team may need it to rest guys for an important power play or down by a goal in the last minute of the game. Every minute is important but some minutes of a game are more important than others. Why don't teams use a timeout for the first power play of the game in the 1st period?

Wasting timeouts is something Torts does. It's has burned the Rangers in the past and will burn them again.
Reductio ad absurdum. I was showing that your original point was false because the logic it's based off of results in absurd conclusions if carried through. That's not a straw man, that's a legitimate argument.

Unrelated but I love how quite this thread gets after wins.

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04-06-2013, 11:03 PM
  #912
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Lol Kel does defend Torts to no end here. I agree that Torts does burn time-outs, sometimes he gets bailed out, but if we had a goalie like Ellis in net, Torts would have been canned a long time ago.

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04-06-2013, 11:19 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Reductio ad absurdum. I was showing that your original point was false because the logic it's based off of results in absurd conclusions if carried through. That's not a straw man, that's a legitimate argument.

Unrelated but I love how quite this thread gets after wins.
I'm sure you are a nice enough person but that doesn't mean I take what you say seriously.

My original post was my opinion. It isn't false to say a team shouldn't burn a timeout in the 1st period. It isn't something that most teams do. It isn't something that most coaches do. I don't think you understand that you only get 1 timeout in a game. This is hockey we are talking about. Perhaps you have this sport confused with Football or Basketball. I'm not sure nor do I care. You feel the need to defend Torts which is your right. I don't think he's as bad a coach as some posters make him out to be but that doesn't make him above criticism.

I would be wrong if a team could only be called for one icing a game. I would be wrong if a team had 3 timeouts a game. Torts using a timeout 8 minutes into a game is what's absurd. It seems like you feel the need to defend Torts from all comers but in this case you are wrong. Unless a coach needs to light a fire under his team a timeout should never be used in the first period to rest players for an icing.

I'm done with this argument.

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04-07-2013, 01:00 AM
  #914
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Obligatory consistency Fire Torts message. He's got the players that allows him to be "inflexible". The next bump on the road will come and it'll be interesting to see what it is and how he handles it.

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04-07-2013, 06:04 AM
  #915
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Interesting. You could be right, but I could not say. I could think of a few ways I would characterize Tort's. Sloppy would not be one of them.

What specifically tells you he is a sloppy coach?
I generally find this team's play in its own zone pretty bad, often resulting in poor outlet passes and weak transition. Offensive zone, I find myself screaming at my TV the amount of times no one is near or in front of the opposition's net. Long stretches where the D and forwards are not using one another in the offensive zone, and the forwards are on their own, playing 3 against 5. Watching our guys miss the net from 12 feet away. Passing and a PP so bad it looks like we never practice them.

So many things that should be fundamental and are drilled into hockey players at a young age aren't executed well on this team. There are also some highly questionable decisions that, as a former regional sales manager and hockey captain, I would never employ. If you're going to sit someone down for a talk, do it in the locker room and do it for ALL players playing poorly... don't single certain guys out, in public, and let others entirely off the hook. It's crap leadership 101 and it's a morale cancer.

I watch over 100 non-NYR games each season and see how other coaches do things. Most team's have much worse player personnel to work with, but play more cohesive hockey. I'll leave it at this. Lundqvist is ridiculously good, and his amazing play covers most of the mess of this team in the defensive zone. If not for Lundvist, this team misses the playoffs 3 of the 4 years Tortorella is here and Tortorella is very exposed.

These are simply my opinions, nothing more. But I have been playing and watching hockey since the mid-1970s, so my opinion isn't entirely uneducated or totally out of left field. I like Torts personally and if he stays, I hope it works out. He's kind of a dick head and could have easily been one of the guys I grew up with in the Bronx lol

 
Old
04-07-2013, 07:41 AM
  #916
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I don't even know who Kel is. Does he just defend Torts from all posters? If so I'm just wasting my time.....
Yes you are.

You are correct though, using timeouts on first period icings, always a bad idea.

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04-07-2013, 09:28 AM
  #917
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Prust also went from being an extra forward scoring single digit point totals to a valuable bottom 6 piece under Torts.

I can't agree with "bottom 10 if not 5 among 30 coaches" at all. He's not top 5 by any means, but come on. Last year his team had 109 points, was second in the league in point percentage, 11th in goals/game and third in goals against/game. Yeah, Hank was in god mode, but he wasn't scoring goals and he had a smart, hard-working team defense in front of him. As much as people love to push last year off as the aberration - last year was a normal season and this year is a last minute bastardized season. This year is an aberration by definition. I don't mean to imply that this team is a 109 point, ECF team from now on, becuase that remeains to be proven and/or seen, but this season is the weird one. Last year, this coach crafted a gameplan that fit his roster perfectly and a lot of players (Hank, Gaborik, Callahan most notably) had the best seasons of their careers in that system. That's not bottom 5 coaching.
Yeah, and Boyle also established himself under Torts.

But that is basically the key there, verge players that become full-timers are bound to score a little more.

We are in year 9 of our rebuild. We have assets to be a contender. I was certainly not always that impressed with how we played last season, but Hank was fantastic.

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04-07-2013, 11:39 AM
  #918
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Yeah, and Boyle also established himself under Torts.

But that is basically the key there, verge players that become full-timers are bound to score a little more.

We are in year 9 of our rebuild. We have assets to be a contender. I was certainly not always that impressed with how we played last season, but Hank was fantastic.
we never rebuilt or were consider rebuilders.. we just brought in guys on slats staff (gordie and gorton) to actually start drafting better and establishing homegrown players.. No NY team will ever rebuild, it's not allowed!! haha.. after lockout we signed Nylander, straka, jagr was back and we brought in guys like rosi malik etc... we never had young guys in our lineup outside of Prucha dawes and hank right after the lockout.. then Girardi came, callahan was on the scene for a few games.. then we saw staal etc...

all our young talent came in bits and pieces and now we are the team we envisioned back then.. young core of guys... we never were in a rebuild..

but back to torts the guy has really developed and pushed a lot of guys in org since hes been here..

guy turned stralman boyle, prust, mitchell into great effective and serviceable players..

developed and pushed Stepan, hags, callahan, staal, girardi mcd sauer into top players

great coach and we are deff a better organization from top to bottom post 04-05 lockout.. we went from a joke org to a good one..

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04-07-2013, 11:48 AM
  #919
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I find it funny that the 3 guys we just traded for had huge nights when Torts said he did not coach them at all before the game and just told them to go out and play. Since then with his coaching they have all dropped back to normal including Moore being benched.

Playing Boyle (who had 1 goal in 33 games) 20 plus minutes is an insult to Rangers fans. Boyle is a 8-10 minute player who now plays PP, PK and 2nd line shifts. I hear fans say he is played for defensive reasons and while that may be true the guy is by far the worst minus player (-11) on the team.

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04-07-2013, 11:57 AM
  #920
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What has Tortarella done differently that warrants him getting any credit for these wins?

Sather completely changed his roster for him, and they still gave up 48 shots to the Hurricanes.

To me, it's an indictment of coaching ability where you need to trade players to get the entire team to put forth an effort.

Torts is not a good coach. He's not a bad coach either. He's just there, relying on the Vezina winner he has between the pipes. Changing lines 15 times a game is an admission to "I have no idea what I'm doing, but law of averages says at some point one player will score a goal"

He preaches unity, effort, and sacrafice. Not much else after that.

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04-07-2013, 12:05 PM
  #921
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What has Tortarella done differently that warrants him getting any credit for these wins?

Sather completely changed his roster for him, and they still gave up 48 shots to the Hurricanes.

To me, it's an indictment of coaching ability where you need to trade players to get the entire team to put forth an effort.

Torts is not a good coach. He's not a bad coach either. He's just there, relying on the Vezina winner he has between the pipes. Changing lines 15 times a game is an admission to "I have no idea what I'm doing, but law of averages says at some point one player will score a goal"

He preaches unity, effort, and sacrafice. Not much else after that.
Well said. Some people give him all the credit for any wins and hold him blameless for the losses. The talent on this team is much better than the team record. Most teams do not have the best goalie in the world, 2-3 all stars at forward and 3-4 dmen that can also be all stars.

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04-07-2013, 12:14 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
What has Tortarella done differently that warrants him getting any credit for these wins?

Sather completely changed his roster for him, and they still gave up 48 shots to the Hurricanes.

To me, it's an indictment of coaching ability where you need to trade players to get the entire team to put forth an effort.

Torts is not a good coach. He's not a bad coach either. He's just there, relying on the Vezina winner he has between the pipes. Changing lines 15 times a game is an admission to "I have no idea what I'm doing, but law of averages says at some point one player will score a goal"

He preaches unity, effort, and sacrafice. Not much else after that.
this is true. if anything it just goes to show you he refused to adapt and sather had to change the roster for him.

and torts does exactly what everyone used to hate renney for, just sit back on a lead in the third and let the other team impose their will.

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04-07-2013, 12:36 PM
  #923
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Boyle is still getting too much ice time. There's no one else to blame for that but Torts. He has driven me to dislike Boyle by putting him in a position to fail over and over.

He should never be out on the PP, ever. He is redundant with Clowe out there, and has zero offensive skill. He gets top line PP time and Zucc rides the pine. Real ****ing brilliant Mr. Tortorella.

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04-07-2013, 12:38 PM
  #924
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
I find it funny that the 3 guys we just traded for had huge nights when Torts said he did not coach them at all before the game and just told them to go out and play. Since then with his coaching they have all dropped back to normal including Moore being benched.

Playing Boyle (who had 1 goal in 33 games) 20 plus minutes is an insult to Rangers fans. Boyle is a 8-10 minute player who now plays PP, PK and 2nd line shifts. I hear fans say he is played for defensive reasons and while that may be true the guy is by far the worst minus player (-11) on the team.
It would be fine if he got 8-10 a night on the PK and defensive zone draws, along with his normal line time. One of the plusses of this trade was hoping Boyle would finally get the ice time he deserves. WRONG! Same ol'.

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04-07-2013, 12:51 PM
  #925
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
It would be fine if he got 8-10 a night on the PK and defensive zone draws, along with his normal line time. One of the plusses of this trade was hoping Boyle would finally get the ice time he deserves. WRONG! Same ol'.
Sad to say but I think Brian Boyle is the last remaining personnel that needs to be jettisoned before the Rangers can make a serious cup run.

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