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Ilya Kovalchuk vs Patrick Kane

View Poll Results: Who would you rather have?
Ilya Kovalchuk 221 64.06%
Patrick Kane 124 35.94%
Voters: 345. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-06-2013, 05:03 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
You're insufferable. After Kane's 88 point season he had 73 in 73. Pretty close. Last season wasn't too good but he's back to over PPG this year which you conveniently ignore. The last three seasons argument for which Kane has outproduced Kovalchuk doesn't even include his 88 point season.
Still includes Kovalchuk's ridiculously uncharacteristic 60 point season..

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04-06-2013, 05:05 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
You're insufferable. After Kane's 88 point season he had 73 in 73. Pretty close. Last season wasn't too good but he's back to over PPG this year which you conveniently ignore. The last three seasons argument for which Kane has outproduced Kovalchuk doesn't even include his 88 point season.
It hasn't been ignored. It's been addressed a few times. Not many people are impressed by what Kane is doing, because it is a shortened season. If this was an 82 game season he would slow down and prolly end up with around 70-80 points. He's hot right now. But in a normal season, stars slump and that's exactly what would happen and he wouldn't keep up his stellar play. It's the same with kovalchuk. Everyone slumps.

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04-06-2013, 05:28 PM
  #128
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Kane was forced to play center for long stretches of last season.
Obviously his numbers would suffer playing out of position like that.

Kane is on the way up.
Kovy is on the way down.

This is a no-brainer.

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04-06-2013, 05:33 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Penosity View Post
Kane was forced to play center for long stretches of last season.
Obviously his numbers would suffer playing out of position like that.

Kane is on the way up.
Kovy is on the way down.


This is a no-brainer.
Please explain.

And Kovy played RW for the first time in his career last year.. worked fine

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04-06-2013, 05:56 PM
  #130
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Not even 30, player is done. Love me some HF.

Kovalchuk is one of, if not the most productive player offensively since he entered the league. And the competitors he faced during these last 12 years is a lot tougher than Mister Patrick Kane.

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04-06-2013, 05:58 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
It hasn't been ignored. It's been addressed a few times. Not many people are impressed by what Kane is doing, because it is a shortened season. If this was an 82 game season he would slow down and prolly end up with around 70-80 points. He's hot right now. But in a normal season, stars slump and that's exactly what would happen and he wouldn't keep up his stellar play. It's the same with kovalchuk. Everyone slumps.
Oh god, here come the asterisks.

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04-06-2013, 06:14 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
Kovalchuk is one of, if not the most productive player offensively since he entered the league. And the competitors he faced during these last 12 years is a lot tougher than Mister Patrick Kane.
What does that second sentence even mean?

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04-06-2013, 06:55 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Please explain.

And Kovy played RW for the first time in his career last year.. worked fine
Just shows the mobility of Kovy. Was an offense minded person, now plays defense. Was LW, now is RW. Not to mention his special teams play.

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04-06-2013, 06:57 PM
  #134
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It means call me back when Patrick Kane has been an elite offensive player for 12 years and counting. Barring a severe injury, Kovalchuk's likely to hit the 1000 pts mark even before turning 35. He's a consistent, established 1PPG player for over a decade.

But we should be impressed with Kane outproducing him for a number of 32 games ? Hmm, not yet, really.

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04-06-2013, 07:45 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
It means call me back when Patrick Kane has been an elite offensive player for 12 years and counting. Barring a severe injury, Kovalchuk's likely to hit the 1000 pts mark even before turning 35. He's a consistent, established 1PPG player for over a decade.

But we should be impressed with Kane outproducing him for a number of 32 games ? Hmm, not yet, really.
Cool. Unfortunately we're not talking about who's had the better career.

Jaromir Jagr is actually not the best player in the NHL today. I know, isn't it surprising?

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04-06-2013, 08:42 PM
  #136
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What career ? you guys are implying clearly stating that Kovalchuk, a proven elite offensive player for the last 12 years now, is definitely on his way down.... Because he'll turn 30 soon.

It's laughable.

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04-06-2013, 09:28 PM
  #137
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No, we're saying he's on his way down because his production clearly reflects that.

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04-06-2013, 09:41 PM
  #138
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Right now, Kovalchuk.

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04-06-2013, 09:41 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
No, we're saying he's on his way down because his production clearly reflects that.
Umm..

what

do you just blindly spew out complete ******** or are you trying to be as factually incorrect as possible?

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04-06-2013, 09:46 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Umm..

what

do you just blindly spew out complete ******** or are you trying to be as factually incorrect as possible?
Only 27 points in 32 games this year, he's washed up.

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04-06-2013, 09:48 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by 1rd View Post
Only 27 points in 32 games this year, he's washed up.
Better that than claiming he got a 58 point season followed by a 27 point season without realizing that was the same exact season.

I mean, I know NHL.com makes it hard for you.. you have to do the addition yourself.. but c'mon.

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04-06-2013, 09:55 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
I'm talking 26 points in 26 games.. why's the cutoff at 12 games which includes 9 points in 3 games and a not as impressive 8 points in the other 9.
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Where did I say that someone's Corsi didn't benefit from the streak? What I said was that Sharp's still entirely from the streak and hasn't been affected by the cooling off that came afterwards. The point streak ended the first game after Sharp got injured.

As for Kane's points since the streak ended -- which is entirely different from Corsi, but okay -- if 17 points in 12 games (1.42 PPG) is how you define cooling off, you must be watching a completely different hockey league than the NHL. Especially since before that he was scoring at 1.125 PPG.
At the time of writing, the streak had ended 12 games ago. I thought that was obvious.

If it makes you feel better, since Kane didn't score in today's game, now he's down to 17 points in 13 games (1.31 PPG) since the streak ended.

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04-06-2013, 10:04 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Yea, I have a problem with people piecing together select years of the past few seasons and making any claims, especially without considering context (mind you, the Kunitz example fits perfectly here).

Until Kane outproduces Kovy consistently (not two years ago and in half a season), I'm going to go with the guy who's consistently put up numbers that Kane has only ever hit ONCE before (4 years ago) as recently as last year.

Your point about primes is irrelevant because players past their 'prime' ages can still produce (see: Elias). You can't just assume that one player in his prime will outproduce another player outside of his prime. Kind of have to establish what each player will do in their new age range by seeing it for a consistent amount of time before judging anything.
You have a problem with piecing together select years for Kovy, but no problem with piecing together select games for Kane. Especially without considering context. (And no, the Kunitz example is still nonsense.)

Until Kovy gets back to consistently outproducing Kane, there's absolutely an argument for Kane's offensive game being above Kovy's. Unless you want to asterisk this season because it's shorter, which of course would mean we'd have to asterisk everything that happened in the shortened 1994-95 season as well, including the Cup.

Your point about primes is irrelevant because anecdotal evidence doesn't refute stats. That's why we measure stats in the first place. Stats say scorers tend to have their best years between 25-28. Kovy's leaving that range, Kane is entering it. Simple as that.

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04-06-2013, 10:05 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
At the time of writing, the streak had ended 12 games ago. I thought that was obvious.

If it makes you feel better, since Kane didn't score in today's game, now he's down to 17 points in 13 games (1.31 PPG) since the streak ended.
I was referring to Kane getting off to a ridiculously impressive start as his team came out firing on all cylinders.. and having since cooled down (now just under a PPG).

If this was a full season, who knows where Kane would finish. He's playing great, but I'm not putting the same amount of stock in 48 games as I do in 82..

It's going to take more than a season and a half in the past 3 years to convince me that one player is better offensively than the other..

Tell me otherwise, please do. Because I don't get the "what have you done lately for me" close-minded mentality... so use logic to tell me that 1.5 seasons (not consecutive, mind you) >>> all other seasons.

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04-06-2013, 10:09 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Umm..

what

do you just blindly spew out complete ******** or are you trying to be as factually incorrect as possible?
He's a PPG player and that's with ridiculous amounts of TOI for a forward, much of the extra time being spent on the PP. He used to be both more efficient and more productive at a gross level than that.
Apparently it's impossible to even say anything that's blatantly obvious without drawing the ire of fans.

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04-06-2013, 10:10 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
You have a problem with piecing together select years for Kovy, but no problem with piecing together select games for Kane. Especially without considering context. (And no, the Kunitz example is still nonsense.)

Until Kovy gets back to consistently outproducing Kane, there's absolutely an argument for Kane's offensive game being above Kovy's. Unless you want to asterisk this season because it's shorter, which of course would mean we'd have to asterisk everything that happened in the shortened 1994-95 season as well, including the Cup.

Your point about primes is irrelevant because anecdotal evidence doesn't refute stats. That's why we measure stats in the first place. Stats say scorers tend to have their best years between 25-28. Kovy's leaving that range, Kane is entering it. Simple as that.
I'm not piecing together any select years for Kovalchuk.. never even mentioned piecing together games for Kane. Piecing together would mean taking one, skipping a few and taking another. That's what you guys are trying to tell me with Kane, disregarding the season in between..

And the Kunitz example is relevant here. Context matters. If it doesn't, Kunitz is a top player in this league. Consider context and you're going to find it hard to explain Kovalchuk's season two years ago.. please try to do that if you would like.

Why does Kovalchuk have to be the one to consistently outproduce Kane? Why not vice versa? Why does Kane get the benefit of the doubt that HE is the better player...? Why can't this season be the aberration for Kane vs. Kovy instead of last year? THAT is piecing things together and choosing games/seasons to talk about..

And yes, primes are irrelevant. Players have different peaks. A player outside of his prime can still be better than a player in his prime... pretty obvious... Kovy outside of his prime years can still put up more points than Kane, ya know. Until we actually see what each peak will be, can't really say which will be better than which..

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04-06-2013, 10:12 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
He's a PPG player and that's with ridiculous amounts of TOI for a forward, much of the extra time being spent on the PP. He used to be both more efficient and more productive at a gross level than that.
Apparently it's impossible to even say anything that's blatantly obvious without drawing the ire of fans.
Please show me how his stats clearly indicate he is on a downward trend in his career, as you stated.

Stats are numbers, mind you.. not your opinion. So you can take back that statement and say that's what you see/think.. but otherwise, ill wait for those numbers..

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04-06-2013, 10:17 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Please show me how his stats clearly indicate he is on a downward trend in his career, as you stated.

Stats are numbers, mind you.. not your opinion. So you can take back that statement and say that's what you see/think.. but otherwise, ill wait for those numbers..
The last season he was significantly above a PPG was 09-10 with the Thrashers, when he put up 58 points in 49 games.
Was traded to New Jersey, scored at a PPG the rest of that season.
60 points in 81 games the next year (of course, that doesn't count!!! ). But in fairness, it's quite obvious he's a much better player than that.
83 points in 77.
27 points in 32.

He was significantly above a PPG at his peak, which was in Atlanta. In NJ he gets more icetime than he ever has in his career, but the numbers hover pretty much right at a PPG (give or take a few hundredths). He doesn't produce as much anymore despite having more opportunity than he ever has before.

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04-06-2013, 10:34 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
I was referring to Kane getting off to a ridiculously impressive start as his team came out firing on all cylinders.. and having since cooled down (now just under a PPG).

If this was a full season, who knows where Kane would finish. He's playing great, but I'm not putting the same amount of stock in 48 games as I do in 82..

It's going to take more than a season and a half in the past 3 years to convince me that one player is better offensively than the other..

Tell me otherwise, please do. Because I don't get the "what have you done lately for me" close-minded mentality... so use logic to tell me that 1.5 seasons (not consecutive, mind you) >>> all other seasons.
So you picked a totally arbitrary game to start measuring from, and are trying to use that to illustrate a point about how you want Kane's production to have an asterisk because it won't last. Great. What's the huge thing that happened to Patrick Kane 27 games ago that caused this trend and how do you know it will continue on for the rest of the season, O Wise One?

That's precisely what I meant when you said you were piecing together games for Kane. You only want to count the trend from 27 games ago, but not the trend of the whole season. You don't care about the trend since the point streak ended because it had some 3 point games. You're picking and choosing only the trends that agree with you, with no context at all, when the overall trend goes against you. Yet when people do this for Kovy over a timespan of years instead games, only then is it a problem.

As for your other point, present >>> past. Simple as that. We're talking about how these players match up today. What Kovy did 12 years ago isn't what Kovy does today (proof: today he plays on the PK) and what Kane did when he was 18 years old isn't what Kane's doing now at 24.

This is not some 1-year wonder. Not even a split 1.5 year wonder. This is a player that's always had elite potential growing into an elite player. If you don't want to believe that, I can't force you, but the stats bear it out no matter how you try to slice, dice, and dispute them.


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04-06-2013, 10:51 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
I'm not piecing together any select years for Kovalchuk.. never even mentioned piecing together games for Kane. Piecing together would mean taking one, skipping a few and taking another. That's what you guys are trying to tell me with Kane, disregarding the season in between..

And the Kunitz example is relevant here. Context matters. If it doesn't, Kunitz is a top player in this league. Consider context and you're going to find it hard to explain Kovalchuk's season two years ago.. please try to do that if you would like.

Why does Kovalchuk have to be the one to consistently outproduce Kane? Why not vice versa? Why does Kane get the benefit of the doubt that HE is the better player...? Why can't this season be the aberration for Kane vs. Kovy instead of last year? THAT is piecing things together and choosing games/seasons to talk about..

And yes, primes are irrelevant. Players have different peaks. A player outside of his prime can still be better than a player in his prime... pretty obvious... Kovy outside of his prime years can still put up more points than Kane, ya know. Until we actually see what each peak will be, can't really say which will be better than which..
I don't need to explain Kovalchuk's season two years ago. He produced well under his career average. Kane did the same thing last year. It happened and there's no need to refute it or contextualize it because they both proved (at least in my eyes) that those years were not the norm for them. Kunitz, no matter how many times you bring him up, is still completely irrelevant because he hasn't proven this season isn't a Crosby-induced aberration for him.

What you're continually saying is that Kane's redeeming himself this season doesn't count, something for which there is absolutely no evidence. Something I wonder if you would even be claiming if there weren't a poll comparing Kane to Kovalchuk.

Kovalchuk has to be the one to outproduce Kane because Kane is already outproducing Kovalchuk. This is not that hard to understand. You can call any season an aberration until it's proven otherwise, but that's just it, it has to be proven otherwise. The burden of proof is now on Kovalchuk.

What you're arguing now is how much Kovalchuk will fall vs. how much Kane will rise, assuming both are currently leaving and entering the primes respectively. Not only is this totally different from saying "primes are irrelevant", but it's also complete crap. Kovy might not even be in his prime yet, he might hit it at 32. Kane might hit his at 36. It's not worth it to discuss those as serious possibilities though because there's zero evidence for either claim. There is evidence that primes come between the ages of 24 and 28, so it only makes sense to consider the claim with some evidence over the claim with none.

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