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2013 Ducks toughness thread (with updates)

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Old
04-06-2013, 11:07 PM
  #451
Dirk316
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Ive asked this question multiple times and it keeps getting ignored.
What is the Ducks record when Beleskey and 1 of Maroon or Staubitz is in the lineup?
AKA a tough 4th line
Heres a hint ITS GOOD
It clearly shows this team is just as effective with a proper 4th line and it destroys any argument by anti fighting posters like joeman etc that the success of this team has nothing to do with bb soft philosophy but the best 1st line in the league and good goaltending

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04-06-2013, 11:09 PM
  #452
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Well his name is joetheman
Not joetheman'sman

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04-07-2013, 05:55 AM
  #453
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04-07-2013, 09:30 AM
  #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Ive asked this question multiple times and it keeps getting ignored.
What is the Ducks record when Beleskey and 1 of Maroon or Staubitz is in the lineup?
AKA a tough 4th line
Heres a hint ITS GOOD
It clearly shows this team is just as effective with a proper 4th line and it destroys any argument by anti fighting posters like joeman etc that the success of this team has nothing to do with bb soft philosophy but the best 1st line in the league and good goaltending
I'll answer this, being a poster who is firmly in your camp. That comparison isn't all that helpful, since the team's record is good regardless. The Ducks are not an easy team to beat on any given night.

That said, the easiest way to beat them is to beat them up, because they don't have an effective response for it. The majority of their skill players are vulnerable to physical play. Yes, Perry and Getzlaf will answer, eventually. Yes, it is to Etem's credit that he responded to Palmieri's hit. To me, that's not an effective response. Skill players fighting is a measure of that player's personal fortitude, not of a team's overall toughness. If a skill player responds that way, great. If a skill player HAS to respond that way because the team is being run, that's bad. That's an overall roster weakness. That's a weakness this roster has.

Boudreau's teams win a lot; I don't really blame him for ignoring it. Personally, I don't think it can work for a team trying to come out of the west.

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04-07-2013, 11:15 AM
  #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Ive asked this question multiple times and it keeps getting ignored.
What is the Ducks record when Beleskey and 1 of Maroon or Staubitz is in the lineup?
AKA a tough 4th line
Heres a hint ITS GOOD
It clearly shows this team is just as effective with a proper 4th line and it destroys any argument by anti fighting posters like joeman etc that the success of this team has nothing to do with bb soft philosophy but the best 1st line in the league and good goaltending
Staubitz: 9 wins 3 losses 1ot 19 of 26 points (73%)
Beleskey: 24 wins 7 losses 3ot 51 of 68 (75%)
Maroon: 8 wins 3 losses 16 of 22 (72%)

Regulation losses:
Vancouver: Beleskey
Dallas: Beleskey, Staubitz (17pims, roughing, spearing5min, game misconduct in first period, Perry fought)
LA: Beleskey, Staubitz (Souray fought)
Detroit: Beleskey (Getzlaf,Ryan,Palmieri fought)
Detroit2: Beleskey (Beleskey fought)
SJ: Staubitz
SJ2: None (Allen, Perry, fought)
Dallas: Beleskey (Etem fought)

OT/SO lose
SJ: Beleskey
Phoenix: Beleskey
Phoenix2: Beleskey
St.Lous: Beleskey
Columbus: Staubitz

Injuries:
Fowler(LA): Beleskey played
Palmieri1(yotes): Beleskey
Palmieri2(SJ): Staubitz, Beleskey

Those were only cheap shot injuries.

Games they didn't play:
Staubitz: 16w - 5l -4ot 36 points of 50 (72%)
Beleskey: 1win - 1l - 1ot 3 points of 6 (50%)
Maroon: 17 - 5 - 5 39 of 54 (72%)

In total:
Staubitz: Got 73% of points with him, 72% of points without (1 of 3 injuries with him in lineup)
Beleskey: 75% of points with, 50% of points without (3 of 3 injuries with him in lineup)
Maroon: 72% of points with, 72% of points without (Forgot to look for his role in injury games)

They win pretty much equally with or without them in lineup.

Errors to stats:
- Beleskey only missed 4 games, his point % without him is affected by that
- Alot of the losses were goalies that stole games (have nothing to do with enforcers). So if goalies didn't steal games points without Staubitz/Maroon would be higher.
- A couple of the losses (Last 1 against Dallas especially) had to do with bad goaltending, and players playing horribly + goalie stealing game. Nothing Staubitz/Maroon would have changed.
- Forgot to see what games were Reg/OT and injures with Maroon in them.

So currently our 4th lines is just effective in terms of games won/loss as if Maroon, Staubitz played. The difference is in close games the current 4th line would be more likely to score then the other players which raises their value to the team.

If Team A won 80% of games and Team B won 80% of games but had a 20% better chance of scoring, you would take Team B. Which is what BB is doing with the 4th line, team is effective with both, but has a better chance at scoring with the other players. Many of the early wins came from the 4th line scoring goals when the top line wasn't doing much.


Last edited by douglast5: 04-07-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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04-07-2013, 11:21 AM
  #456
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I'll just address the fact that some folks have said Etem shouldn't have to fight. At this point in his career he is not a top 6 player counted on for his scoring. As such, he has to do other things to earn his keep. And he has done that admirably. But based on what I saw in that fight, I'd say his ability to kick somebody's ass should not be discounted.

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04-07-2013, 01:07 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by DaDucks View Post
Well his name is joetheman
Not joetheman'sman
Hilarious.

Such BS that the majority of a fanbase that was delivered the Cup primarily on the back of physical, mean hockey are now pacifists, or pacinofists if I can borrow from DaDucks comedic stylings.

Brad May against Minnesota, Pronger on Holmstrom, Moen KO'ing Weber and on and on. The '07 team was talented but it also had criminals on it that allowed that skill to do whatever the hell it wanted. Fast forward to this year--which isn't even at the halfway point of a real season--and the Ducks don't need toughness because they have a great record after 38 games and Cogliano has 12 goals. Pretty funny.

Beleskey is enough? Glorious. Reminds me of when the Kings trotted out Tom Kostopolous as a sacrificial lamb to that '07 Ducks squad. Would be like if the Kings had only Colin Fraser out there but, it's cool because he drops the gloves, nevermind the fact he gets beat every time and shouldn't fight heavyweights.

If Nolan plays, he'll be looking for another scalp from the Ducks blueline tonight. Already has Allen's and Souray's...hoping for Beauchemin next. I wouldn't dare come in and type something like that on the Ducks board in years past so, please, keep it up.

I will say I was surprised to actually see posts in this thread because, when I read the title, I figured I would be directed to a "Page not found" screen.

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04-07-2013, 01:15 PM
  #458
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And boom goes the dynamite

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04-07-2013, 01:31 PM
  #459
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Even other teams fans are making fun of us because we're soft. He brings up a good point...Nolan has been kicking our *****. I'd like to see Staubitz fight him tonight.

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04-07-2013, 01:32 PM
  #460
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I feel tonight this thread will explode

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04-07-2013, 01:34 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Even other teams fans are making fun of us because we're soft. He brings up a good point...Nolan has been kicking our *****. I'd like to see Staubitz fight him tonight.
Clifford can handle Staubitz again: Nolan is systematically taking out your blueline.

http://youtu.be/ZJ_OYpIK2vw

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04-07-2013, 01:37 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Even other teams fans are making fun of us because we're soft. He brings up a good point...Nolan has been kicking our *****. I'd like to see Staubitz fight him tonight.
Not me. If we are going to dress an enforcer, they need to play like an enforcer. Their biggest use isn't fighting the other team's goon. It's running the other team's skill players so that they tell their own goons to back off because they're tired of getting hurt. The Ducks haven't had a player like that since Thornton/Moen/Brown. Parros was worthless.

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04-07-2013, 01:45 PM
  #463
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Why do people keep leaving out that we signed Maroon to a one-way extension for two years? Our fourth line is being used as a testing ground for our top six, next year. We aren't going to be staffing that line with the same type of players on a long term basis. This whole argument seems just a different side of the 'make us an instant contender' in that the problem is that people are looking at this year as our window, when no one should be looking at a team with this much unpolished talent as a team that is contending for the cup. How far we go in the playoffs at this point is just gravy, just as it was with our team in '05 or the Kings were before they were in a position to make big trades for Richards and Carter. Derek Roy wasn't going to transform this team, nor was Jay Rosehill. We signed or re-upped, what...PL3, Bodie, Maroon, and Staubitz over the last year. Those players don't need to be gradually brought in to 4th line roles if they show that they're ready down there, the way that you have to with players like Palmieri, Etem, Holland, Bonino, or Vatanen. We also didn't stupidly trade away Devo, Wagner, or Clark for picks or rentals. What we see right now isn't going to be the model for every team we ice from here on out.

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04-07-2013, 02:19 PM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Ive asked this question multiple times and it keeps getting ignored.
What is the Ducks record when Beleskey and 1 of Maroon or Staubitz is in the lineup?
AKA a tough 4th line
Heres a hint ITS GOOD
It clearly shows this team is just as effective with a proper 4th line and it destroys any argument by anti fighting posters like joeman etc that the success of this team has nothing to do with bb soft philosophy but the best 1st line in the league and good goaltending
Dirk you're argunent also proves that the fourth line is just as effective without those guys in the lineup. It's hilarious that you think having Staubitz in the lineup makes us a better team. He sucks at fighting and hits as hard as Etem. I would be all for the kind of player you think he is but he's not. And we're on the same page about Maroon. I don't know what the issue is there. If he was a better skater or penatluy killer he'd be here right now.

And for the millionth time I LOVE FIGHTING! Always have. Todd Ewen and Stu Grimson were my favorite players when this team showed up. Beauch's fight with Ignla was the moment this franchise became legit. I can watch the video of Sheldon Brookbank breaking Brad Richardson's face all day. A George Parros jersey hangs in my closet. Fighting is great and should always be a part of the game.

My point this whole effing time has been that we need guys who can play first and fight second. Where we disagree is that I feel this team wins plenty, 25 games out of 38 so far, without being the kind of team that has to fight and grind constantly. If we could do both that would be great but we'd have to sacrifice skill and rely more on our PK which I don't want to do.

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04-07-2013, 02:24 PM
  #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDucks View Post
Well his name is joetheman
Not joetheman'sman
That would have been clever if you actually got my screen name right. Plus I've always felt the notion of being "a man's man" sounds more like your orientation so in that regards you are right. I don't think my wife would be too happy if I was a man's man.

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04-07-2013, 02:30 PM
  #466
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Hahahaha that Nolan is killing our players. Rewatch the fight. Whats he land 2 hits in total, flailing his arms around hitting nothing.

Allen - http://youtu.be/L8rSixlAIGI Lands maybe two hits and flails his arms around.

Yea, sure killed him.

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04-07-2013, 02:33 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Don't go there because your argument is simply stupid.

Tie Domi was 5'10 and one of the toughest guys in the league. Brown, Tootoo and Konopka are not heavyweights, they are middleweights. Selanne is the size of those guys, does that make him a tough guy? That's just stupid.

Steve McKenna was what 6'7 and still sucked as a tough guy, Antti Aalto was 6'3 and softer than butter.
No one has given me examples of how we've been beaten because of physical play yet this season is my point. If we were than I would agree with your whole point but it's not the case and you still haven't given proof why my point is stupid.

Those players are the tough guys of this conference, plain and simple. The towering giants who can mess a dude up just don't exist anymore. Prove me wrong please.



Quote:
You're 100% missing the point.

This team could be even better if they had more toughness. Like I said, nobody's calling for full goon squad, some people (like me) just would like to see players play the game harder AND with more truculence (yeah, quoting Brian Burke).

What you seem to totally miss is that Ducks could play more physical without being any worse.
That's just where we will have to agree to disagree. Like I just told Dirk, if we could ice such a team without sacrificing skill and chemistry to this squad than great. I just don't think it's possible or necessary. It's a moot point anyway since the deadline has passed and what we have is what we've got.

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04-07-2013, 02:39 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
That would have been clever if you actually got my screen name right. Plus I've always felt the notion of being "a man's man" sounds more like your orientation so in that regards you are right. I don't think my wife would be too happy if I was a man's man.
Irrelevant
It's still hilarious.
it doesn't matter what your name is
(To quote the Rock)


Last edited by DaDucks: 04-07-2013 at 03:10 PM.
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04-07-2013, 02:49 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by douglast5 View Post
Hahahaha that Nolan is killing our players. Rewatch the fight. Whats he land 2 hits in total, flailing his arms around hitting nothing.

Allen - http://youtu.be/L8rSixlAIGI Lands maybe two hits and flails his arms around.

Yea, sure killed him.
Allen looked horrible; Nolan drew blood on both guys with the Souray fight being a momentum changer that was referenced by players and coaches alike post-game.

Allen went after Williams end of the 1st period, Nolan makes him answer for it same game.

Stoll boards Fowler, puts him on IR, Stoll goes home to Manhattan Beach.

I think that is the point of this thread.


Last edited by Ducks DVM: 04-07-2013 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Don't need to know what Stoll does at home
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04-07-2013, 03:49 PM
  #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post

Those players are the tough guys of this conference, plain and simple. The towering giants who can mess a dude up just don't exist anymore. Prove me wrong please.




.
In the Western Conf. alone:

Brian McGrattan
Ryan Reaves
Tom Sestito
Brandon Bollig
Jared Boll
and that's just off the top of my head...and if you think these guys aren't "big enough"...you do know that John Scott is still playing, right?

Players of this size, and skill set are going to be used more and more as the Play-offs get closer, to try and soften up the competition before the postseason even begins.

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04-07-2013, 04:00 PM
  #471
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What he's saying is somewhat true. The queens won the Cup with that game plan: 4th line plug takes questionable run on oppositions skill player, injuring said player...move to next round. If 4th line plug gets penalty, so what. If 4th line plug gets suspended, so what. The damage was done. If stoll "accidentlly" runs Fowler again, giving him an "upper body injury", Fowler would be out for the Play-offs. Let's suppose stoll sits for 2-3 games, do you see a fair trade off there?




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04-07-2013, 06:46 PM
  #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
Allen looked horrible; Nolan drew blood on both guys with the Souray fight being a momentum changer that was referenced by players and coaches alike post-game.

Allen went after Williams end of the 1st period, Nolan makes him answer for it same game.

Stoll boards Fowler, puts him on IR, Stoll goes home to Manhattan Beach.

I think that is the point of this thread.
Bingo

Its not hard to see the difference in coaching Philosophies.

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04-07-2013, 06:52 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by Papaspud View Post
In the Western Conf. alone:

Brian McGrattan
Ryan Reaves
Tom Sestito
Brandon Bollig
Jared Boll
and that's just off the top of my head...and if you think these guys aren't "big enough"...you do know that John Scott is still playing, right?

Players of this size, and skill set are going to be used more and more as the Play-offs get closer, to try and soften up the competition before the postseason even begins.
Mike Rupp
Tim Jackman
Mike Brown
Bissonette
Multi Kings players
Lane McDermott
Patrick Bordeleau
Alll are big and would send Beleskey into a coma

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04-07-2013, 07:01 PM
  #474
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Nolan and even Clifford would destroy Beleskey. We better dress our enforcer tonight

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04-07-2013, 07:14 PM
  #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
I'll just address the fact that some folks have said Etem shouldn't have to fight. At this point in his career he is not a top 6 player counted on for his scoring. As such, he has to do other things to earn his keep. And he has done that admirably. But based on what I saw in that fight, I'd say his ability to kick somebody's ass should not be discounted.
I don't get this. And I agree with you. Whoever said a scorer shouldn't fight? Do we really need to bring in Byfuglien, Hartnell, etc? Hell even Getzlaf and Perry have faught in past games. If my linemate hits the ice and lays there from a high stick I'm whooping some ass regardless if I'm a scorer/depth/ tough guy/playmaker. To judge a players character for fighting is stupid. It's hockey after all and tempers flare.

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