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Has Marc Bergevin made his first mistake as a Habs GM?

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Old
04-07-2013, 07:20 AM
  #51
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if we're looking to point out mistakes... not signing Subban to a multi-year contract in the ~5M$ range was/is his biggest mistake thus far.

deciding not to pay massive trade deadline premiums for average players was a stroke of genius
Yup, good post.
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
I applauded this move...like it lot... a dman depth move. However, Wiskey is now going to be playing 20 minutes a game? Something he has never done in the NHL before.

I was thinking someone like Robin Regher... a solid experienced D.

Our defence is now going to be severely tested. I hope someone like Tinordi or Drewiski or Beaulieu breaks out and starts playing qaulity minutes.
I liked the Drewskie move and I'm glad we didn't sell the farm for a vet blueliner.

And how smart is MB looking for picking up Halpern for nothing? All of a sudden we have an effective penalty killer who can actually win faceoffs. Minor move but it looms large late in the game when you need those faceoff wins.

Ryder for Cole I felt would probably hurt us but at least we'd get rid of both contracts by the end of the year so I liked the move... now Ryder is looking like our best forward.

MB hasn't made too many mistakes as far as I can see. As Millertime pointed out, lowballing PK and signing him short term will haunt him but he didn't lose the player and it's not a huge mistake.

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04-07-2013, 07:29 AM
  #52
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Bergevin has done a phenomenal job.........The trade deadline was perfect. I still want the 5th back and hoping we can get that in the offseason.
Dont forget he has auditioned 3 defencemen already so they do have a little taste as to what its like.
This season has been a bonus and if we can get some of our AHL D in some playoff action this year it will also speed up their progression.

Bergevin has a plan and it looks like a beauty.

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04-07-2013, 07:31 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
At the deadline, Marc Bergevin decided that the habs would stand pat and only made minor dman depth move.

With the habs losing Emelin, we are now short a #4 dman and we will have to start playing our inexperienced young dman big minutes.

This habs team has lots of character and Bergevin has done a fantastic job putting this team together... But should Bergevin have spent a 2nd or 3rd round pick to get a solid #4/ #5 experienced dman for the playoffs?
No.

We have depth at defence in the form of prospects. Some good ones, too. Remember Subban coming in for us in the 2010 playoffs?

Bergevin is doing great - I've yet to see a bad move.

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04-07-2013, 07:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Forgedias View Post
I'm going to chip in here because I think people need to understand and listen to what Marc Bergevin has said all along. He is building for the future for many years to come. I think most of you heard that when he had his news conference at the trade deadline. Those draft picks are precious and he isn't willing to mortgage the club's future by trading them for rentals.

We all know how deep and franchise changing this draft will be. There are already several players we can deem as superstars in the 2013 draft. Last years draft we can't even say that, with Yakupov only doing ok and Galchenyuk having a good year, but probably will not win the Calder. Maybe this might change in the 10 games left, but its safe to say either Huberdeau or maybe Gallagher will win the Calder.

But the 2013 draft is so deep that we are more then likely to see over 40 players that have 1st round grades come into that draft. And with Montreal holding Calgary's 2nd round draft pick, its really another 1st if you consider how badly Calgary is tanking right now. With so many skilled players and players like Droin, Jones, Barkov, Nichushkin and maybe Mckinnon potentially having the superstar tag on them. 2013 is shaping up to be a year where prospects can change the fortunes of a franchise around. There hasn't been a draft this deep and this potentially important in a decade. Bergevin was smart to keep all his high draft picks, he has 4 draft picks in the first 2 rounds, and 6 for the top 90 players. All of these picks can be potentially number one picks since we know from past experience teams will pick quite frequently draft for either need or potential and let round one graded players drop.

For me, this draft is just too important, more important then getting Montreal into the playoffs, because this draft can solidify Montreal for years to come. So I am happy Bergevin didn't get swayed by the public and fork over high draft picks for rentals, because if Pittsburgh was willing to forgo 2 second rounders for a player like Murray, then you know it was going to be expensive to get rentals for the playoffs.

Back to the quote on top, I may be in the minority here, but I think Bergevin did the smart thing when he kept to his guns and got Subban signed to a bridge contract, Many of you are figuring that to resign Subban, its going to cost us even more. I agree it will cost us more. But your forgetting that as an organization Montreal has to show their players that they want them to prove that they are not a one year wonder and should be rewarded for that. How much is the Sabres regretting that ridiculous contract they gave to Tyler Myers. His 6million or so contract is becoming an albatross for their organization. Myers had a great year playing his entry level contract and they rewarded him for that with a massive contract and his play has never returned to those levels after that.

Montreal in turn has rewarded Carey Price and Pacioretty with long term deals that pay them what they deserve. Plekanac as well. Could we have gotten Subban cheaper? Sure, but these bridge contracts help both sides. I think everyone here believes Subban was going to be worth at least 5million and we would of been happy if Subban got that, but Montreal also needs to stabilize their cap. They can't keep rewarding their prospects with big contracts everytime their entry deal is over. That bridge contract is key to Montreal because they have more wiggle room to work out the long term contracts from their older veteran players. Those two years is very helpful in managing their cap situation. Remember our Cap for next year will be around 60million, but the 2015 year, many of our long term contracts with players like Gionta and Markov will be over. In fact we will clear 40million off our cap in 2015. Managing your cap is vital if Montreal is going to stay competitive. 2015 is also the year that Subban will be extended and it will be no surprise to any of us that he will be rewarded. In fact lets just say he will take over Markov's 5.75million cap hit from then on. He will be well worth this.

Looking at what Bergevin has already done this season, he really has knocked it out of the park. He started with the Stellar draft with the pick up of Galchenyuk, hired Michel Therrien which many of us questioned but turned out to be one of the better hires for Montreal in a long time. Traded for Micheal Ryder and traded away an underperforming player in Cole. And picked up Drewskie who is looking like an awesome pick up with Emelin's injury. Drewskie played 23minutes and played very tough agains the Bruins.

My only question mark was signing David Desharnais to a 4year extension. That surprised me, not extending Desharnais, but giving him 4 years. He's an exploitation forward and needs snipers on his wings to be effective. He isn't a top centerman that can play both ends of the rink. He gets exposed when he has to defend against a top line as we saw against the 7-6 loss to Pittsburgh.

In final, for me it doesn't matter how well Montreal does in the playoffs this year. I know that sounds sacrilegious, but for me, its this upcoming draft that is so important. This draft if Bergevin can do his homework will forever change Montreal for many years to come. The 2012-2013 drafts will be franchise changing drafts for Montreal. And that has got me excited like I haven't been for a very long time.
Very well said. You are bang on

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04-07-2013, 07:48 AM
  #55
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He made a mistake only if you desperately wanted him to make a mistake.

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04-07-2013, 07:58 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
At the deadline, Marc Bergevin decided that the habs would stand pat and only made minor dman depth move.

With the habs losing Emelin, we are now short a #4 dman and we will have to start playing our inexperienced young dman big minutes.

This habs team has lots of character and Bergevin has done a fantastic job putting this team together... But should Bergevin have spent a 2nd or 3rd round pick to get a solid #4/ #5 experienced dman for the playoffs?
Should we have picked up Luongo also, in case Price gets hurt?

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04-07-2013, 08:37 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
At the deadline, Marc Bergevin decided that the habs would stand pat and only made minor dman depth move.

With the habs losing Emelin, we are now short a #4 dman and we will have to start playing our inexperienced young dman big minutes.

This habs team has lots of character and Bergevin has done a fantastic job putting this team together... But should Bergevin have spent a 2nd or 3rd round pick to get a solid #4/ #5 experienced dman for the playoffs?
Doubt it...glad he did pick up DD though.

I think the 2013 draft, along with 2012 draft will be cornerstone of our future. With extra picks and Timmins shown decent if not good ability, of finding gems late first round to later rounds. Like to see him deal a player at the draft to acquire a 4th and 5th round picks.

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04-07-2013, 09:03 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Forgedias View Post
I'm going to chip in here because I think people need to understand and listen to what Marc Bergevin has said all along. He is building for the future for many years to come. I think most of you heard that when he had his news conference at the trade deadline. Those draft picks are precious and he isn't willing to mortgage the club's future by trading them for rentals.

We all know how deep and franchise changing this draft will be. There are already several players we can deem as superstars in the 2013 draft. Last years draft we can't even say that, with Yakupov only doing ok and Galchenyuk having a good year, but probably will not win the Calder. Maybe this might change in the 10 games left, but its safe to say either Huberdeau or maybe Gallagher will win the Calder.

But the 2013 draft is so deep that we are more then likely to see over 40 players that have 1st round grades come into that draft. And with Montreal holding Calgary's 2nd round draft pick, its really another 1st if you consider how badly Calgary is tanking right now. With so many skilled players and players like Droin, Jones, Barkov, Nichushkin and maybe Mckinnon potentially having the superstar tag on them. 2013 is shaping up to be a year where prospects can change the fortunes of a franchise around. There hasn't been a draft this deep and this potentially important in a decade. Bergevin was smart to keep all his high draft picks, he has 4 draft picks in the first 2 rounds, and 6 for the top 90 players. All of these picks can be potentially number one picks since we know from past experience teams will pick quite frequently draft for either need or potential and let round one graded players drop.

For me, this draft is just too important, more important then getting Montreal into the playoffs, because this draft can solidify Montreal for years to come. So I am happy Bergevin didn't get swayed by the public and fork over high draft picks for rentals, because if Pittsburgh was willing to forgo 2 second rounders for a player like Murray, then you know it was going to be expensive to get rentals for the playoffs.

Back to the quote on top, I may be in the minority here, but I think Bergevin did the smart thing when he kept to his guns and got Subban signed to a bridge contract, Many of you are figuring that to resign Subban, its going to cost us even more. I agree it will cost us more. But your forgetting that as an organization Montreal has to show their players that they want them to prove that they are not a one year wonder and should be rewarded for that. How much is the Sabres regretting that ridiculous contract they gave to Tyler Myers. His 6million or so contract is becoming an albatross for their organization. Myers had a great year playing his entry level contract and they rewarded him for that with a massive contract and his play has never returned to those levels after that.

Montreal in turn has rewarded Carey Price and Pacioretty with long term deals that pay them what they deserve. Plekanac as well. Could we have gotten Subban cheaper? Sure, but these bridge contracts help both sides. I think everyone here believes Subban was going to be worth at least 5million and we would of been happy if Subban got that, but Montreal also needs to stabilize their cap. They can't keep rewarding their prospects with big contracts everytime their entry deal is over. That bridge contract is key to Montreal because they have more wiggle room to work out the long term contracts from their older veteran players. Those two years is very helpful in managing their cap situation. Remember our Cap for next year will be around 60million, but the 2015 year, many of our long term contracts with players like Gionta and Markov will be over. In fact we will clear 40million off our cap in 2015. Managing your cap is vital if Montreal is going to stay competitive. 2015 is also the year that Subban will be extended and it will be no surprise to any of us that he will be rewarded. In fact lets just say he will take over Markov's 5.75million cap hit from then on. He will be well worth this.

Looking at what Bergevin has already done this season, he really has knocked it out of the park. He started with the Stellar draft with the pick up of Galchenyuk, hired Michel Therrien which many of us questioned but turned out to be one of the better hires for Montreal in a long time. Traded for Micheal Ryder and traded away an underperforming player in Cole. And picked up Drewskie who is looking like an awesome pick up with Emelin's injury. Drewskie played 23minutes and played very tough agains the Bruins.

My only question mark was signing David Desharnais to a 4year extension. That surprised me, not extending Desharnais, but giving him 4 years. He's an exploitation forward and needs snipers on his wings to be effective. He isn't a top centerman that can play both ends of the rink. He gets exposed when he has to defend against a top line as we saw against the 7-6 loss to Pittsburgh.

In final, for me it doesn't matter how well Montreal does in the playoffs this year. I know that sounds sacrilegious, but for me, its this upcoming draft that is so important. This draft if Bergevin can do his homework will forever change Montreal for many years to come. The 2012-2013 drafts will be franchise changing drafts for Montreal. And that has got me excited like I haven't been for a very long time.
This is an awesome post. One of the most well thought/reasoned posts I have seen on HF. Kudos to you.

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Originally Posted by Giddens View Post
It's great to have so many picks for the next draft but I look forward to seeing some smart "assets management" as well. There is a limit to the number of contracts per team of course. At some point we will have to start trading young players that don't have a future in Montreal. A guy like Weber comes to mind. Maybe Leblanc also. Both players have fallen down in the depth chart.
Excellent post also. Actually, this really didn't occur to me but after signing Kristo how many contracts do we have?

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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Should we have picked up Luongo also, in case Price gets hurt?
My thought upon seeing the thread name was I hope some person doesn't complain about Bergy not being a seer and prophet. The same thread could have been created and asked whether we should have gone out and traded for a Number 1C after Pleks' groin injury.

Luongo didn't occur to me because after all we have Budaj - who is better than Price because Price doesn't steal games for us

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04-07-2013, 09:12 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if we're looking to point out mistakes... not signing Subban to a multi-year contract in the ~5M$ range was/is his biggest mistake thus far.

deciding not to pay massive trade deadline premiums for average players was a stroke of genius
but it is not...he's given us a window with a norris d-man on a caphit of 2.6.....that capspace gives us aan oportunity to bulk up next year....and even though we may sign some ufa's or aquire contracts that extend beyond there....gionta...markov come off the books...so it gives us an excellent...excellent opportunity to win it all next year.....and we're right in the thick of things this year...i applaud everything MB has done

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04-07-2013, 09:15 AM
  #60
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When i read the thread title... I was convinced that we were talking about re-signing DD for another 4 years!

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04-07-2013, 09:17 AM
  #61
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The fact that our GM promoted 3 defenseman in an effort to assess his internal options, then obtained an NHL ready defenseman by shrewdly taking advantage of a surplus created on another team's roster, all the while ending the season with better draft picks than when the season started, seems to be confusing the **** out of people.

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04-07-2013, 09:19 AM
  #62
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I just don't get why we didn't get Torres for a 3rd round pick
Because it wouldn't have cost us a 3rd rounder. PHX got Florida's 3rd rounder for Torres, which will be in the top 3 picks of round 3.

Habs would have had to trade their own 2nd to get Torres.

Bergevin has made 2 mistakes in my books. Hiring Lefebvre instead of an actual head coach and the Subban bridge deal. Moen could become one, but he seems to be stepping it up. Desharnais pretty much has to fall to like a 40 point level for that extension to be a 'mistake'.

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04-07-2013, 09:22 AM
  #63
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Just becuase he's has not been dealing and whealing like some would like, I would say he has done a pretty good job.
It's very easy to sit behing a heyboard and complane about this one and that one but come on guys, the team is winning, we have a core that is strong, well coached and depth.
If you look at the trades, it was all draft picks and prospect traded for roster players.
I also don't buy that signing PK to a bridge contract was a mistake, in fact I think it was the best move he's done. Had he signed him to a long contract, I would had liked it less but that would not be a mistake either.

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04-07-2013, 09:28 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by walsy37 View Post
Actually, this really didn't occur to me but after signing Kristo how many contracts do we have?
Check out this sticky that I maintain:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...83&postcount=2

We have 48 guys on contract now, including Kristo. Dietz is signed as of next year, making 49.

I assume we re-sign the below four, or find other FAs to replace them on the big league roster:
Davis Drewiske
Peter Budaj
Michael Ryder
Jeff Halpern

We lose the following players to UFA status, bringing us down to 45:
Petteri Nokelainen
Frédérick St. Denis
Jason de Santis
Colby Armstrong

We buy out :
Thomas Kaberle

Going to Europe:
Robert Mayer

I think we will not qualify or trade the following RFAs:
Blake Geoffrion (probably retire anyway)
Yannick Weber

So, after all these moves, we will be at 40 contracts, plus Engqvist and Mayer in Europe that don't count

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04-07-2013, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
I applauded this move...like it lot... a dman depth move. However, Wiskey is now going to be playing 20 minutes a game? Something he has never done in the NHL before.

I was thinking someone like Robin Regher... a solid experienced D.

Our defence is now going to be severely tested. I hope someone like Tinordi or Drewiski or Beaulieu breaks out and starts playing qaulity minutes.
Regher wasn't even capable of playing 20 min on the lowly sabres.

If anything Drewiske is unknown quantity. Let's see what he can do once he has shaken off the rust.

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04-07-2013, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Because it wouldn't have cost us a 3rd rounder. PHX got Florida's 3rd rounder for Torres, which will be in the top 3 picks of round 3.

Habs would have had to trade their own 2nd to get Torres.

Bergevin has made 2 mistakes in my books. Hiring Lefebvre instead of an actual head coach and the Subban bridge deal. Moen could become one, but he seems to be stepping it up. Desharnais pretty much has to fall to like a 40 point level for that extension to be a 'mistake'.
Yes, look at how well it is working for Edmonton. Give the RFA's big contracts when they have no leverage and then you have no money to get veteran players to compliment these young guns or help tem over teheran top. If GM's don't use the salary cap then shame on them.

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04-07-2013, 09:34 AM
  #67
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I strongly disagree that not moving big at the deadline was a mistake. In fact it was a pretty smart move. Plus, he got Drewiski for peanuts who, while not a world beater, will certainly alleviate the current losses of Diaz and Emelin.

Here's the point. If you want to stay on top for a long time under a salary cap structure, you need to draft and draft well, develop those picks and set a solid contract structure that allows you to have young players hitting their stride at a low price for a few seasons. Moreover, players groomed from within your organisation tend to cost less than UFAs, overall. In short, what you're after is good bang for your buck, at every position.

That's the theory anyway, and most of what Bergevin is doing is along these lines.

Moreover, Bergevin came in and assessed what he had. I believe he came to the conclusion that he had a glorious gem in his coffers, one that if used well can bring in a lot of success for our team for years and years. That gem is Trevor Timmins. So, why throw draft picks at opposing teams for rentals when you know that if you just keep them, you can hit homeruns almost every draft? Bergevin isn't blind. He sees the amount of Timmins drafted talent we currently have with us and he knows the following drafts are going to be strong ones. It's also why he put in so much effort in developping a solid farm coaching team to help bring those kids along. Whether the current team will be successful remains to be seen, but the players we saw coming from Hamilton this year seemed ready - not out of place at all. We can't just stop at Leblanc, and the team record, to assess their contribution.

Also, what was he supposed to do? Force the issue to look like bigger movers and better than the Pens? After so much hard work liberating salary for the 64 millions cap 2013-2014? No way. I'm guessing his thought was that it's useless to rush for the cup this year if we're a middle of the pack team for the next few years again. Especially since the Pens hit it so hard. So this year we go with what we have, and next year we come back stronger.

So I'd say he played it well. We still have Kaberle and Weber, as well as Tinordi and Beaulieu. Most teams don't have this luxury.

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04-07-2013, 09:35 AM
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Signing DD during the season instead of at the end of the season was a mistake I think...He's been so crappy since he signed his extension.

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04-07-2013, 09:35 AM
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I actually heard from Elliot Friedman today on CBC that Phx was asking for a 2nd round pick, not 3rd for Torres. MB didnt want to give any of our 2nd round picks thats why it didnt go through.
It's definitely possible that MB being a rookie GM, other teams were testing him and asking more from him to see if he'd cave to the pressure and make mistakes.

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04-07-2013, 09:35 AM
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Yes, look at how well it is working for Edmonton. Give the RFA's big contracts when they have no leverage and then you have no money to get veteran players to compliment these young guns or help tem over teheran top. If GM's don't use the salary cap then shame on them.
Taylor Hall is 9th in league points race. I am sure they are beyond thrilled he's signed long-term @ 6 M right now.

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04-07-2013, 09:35 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Because it wouldn't have cost us a 3rd rounder. PHX got Florida's 3rd rounder for Torres, which will be in the top 3 picks of round 3.

Habs would have had to trade their own 2nd to get Torres.

Bergevin has made 2 mistakes in my books. Hiring Lefebvre instead of an actual head coach and the Subban bridge deal. Moen could become one, but he seems to be stepping it up. Desharnais pretty much has to fall to like a 40 point level for that extension to be a 'mistake'.
dd is currently on a 47 point pace.

I think a 2-year deal for Desharnais would have been fine, probably for less money, since the final two years we bought were UFA years. We could have decided during the 14-15 season whether to extend him again or trade him, or let him walk for nothing.

If after this season, an arbitrator had to make a 2-year award, I doubt dd was getting more than about $2.75M. I think we overpaid in both dollars and term. Not a HUGE mistake, but maybe a small one. The only problem is that to fix the mistake, Bergevin would have to trade dd, and he won't want to do that with a dearth of francophones on the team, and the player being very likeable. This is why shorter term could have been better. The PR effect is a lot less if the player walks away from a decent offer to get big bucks from a non-playoff team somewhere.

At any rate four years is a long-time, and the situation could change. For the next one to two years, we need him.

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04-07-2013, 09:37 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by 1UP View Post
I strongly disagree that not moving big at the deadline was a mistake. In fact it was a pretty smart move. Plus, he got Drewiski for peanuts who, while not a world beater, will certainly alleviate the current losses of Diaz and Emelin.

Here's the point. If you want to stay on top for a long time under a salary cap structure, you need to draft and draft well, develop those picks and set a solid contract structure that allows you to have young players hitting their stride at a low price for a few seasons. Moreover, players groomed from within your organisation tend to cost less than UFAs, overall. In short, what you're after is good bang for your buck, at every position.

That's the theory anyway, and most of what Bergevin is doing is along these lines.

Moreover, Bergevin came in and assessed what he had. I believe he came to the conclusion that he had a glorious gem in his coffers, one that if used well can bring in a lot of success for our team for years and years. That gem is Trevor Timmins. So, why throw draft picks at opposing teams for rentals when you know that if you just keep them, you can hit homeruns almost every draft? Bergevin isn't blind. He sees the amount of Timmins drafted talent we currently have with us and he knows the following drafts are going to be strong ones. It's also why he put in so much effort in developping a solid farm coaching team to help bring those kids along. Whether the current team will be successful remains to be seen, but the players we saw coming from Hamilton this year seemed ready - not out of place at all. We can't just stop at Leblanc, and the team record, to assess their contribution.

Also, what was he supposed to do? Force the issue to look like bigger movers and better than the Pens? After so much hard work liberating salary for the 64 millions cap 2013-2014? No way. I'm guessing his thought was that it's useless to rush for the cup this year if we're a middle of the pack team for the next few years again. Especially since the Pens hit it so hard. So this year we go with what we have, and next year we come back stronger.

So I'd say he played it well. We still have Kaberle and Weber, as well as Tinordi and Beaulieu. Most teams don't have this luxury.
well said.

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04-07-2013, 09:38 AM
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We have Kaberle, Diaz injured, Tinordi and co. in Hamilton. And yes, Weber.

This is actually why I was a fan of keeping Kaberle around for the playoff run.

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04-07-2013, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
I think the Desharnais 4 year contract was a hasty move and possibly another mistake by Bergevin... but there is another thread to discuss that one.

As far as massive premiums, I am speaking of a third, maybe a second round pick... The East is wide open this year and if you have a decent chance to get to a Stanley Cup final you should be a little more aggressive in protecting your defensive depth.
I keep asking myself what the rush was to sign DD at this time? He does not bring enough in the regular season, let alone the playoffs

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04-07-2013, 09:43 AM
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These guys complaining must be trolls

I don't know what these so called Habs fans are expecting. The season after finishing last in the eastern conference, we are challenging for first in the conference. All that plus the cap is under control, we have a good farm of young dmen, we have 2 excellent rookies, one of which is potentially up for the calder and we have 6 picks in the first 3 rounds of a fantastic draft.

I've been a Habs fan since the late 70's and cannot remember the last time so many things have been looking positive for us.

Take you complaints elsewhere bandwagon fans. I'm sure the Leafs will accept you as one of their own.

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