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04-07-2013, 08:59 AM
  #226
Ivan13
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Playing with better players will probably make every player look better and playing with bad/worse players will make them look worse. I find it quite amusing that some people find that as a some kind of an alien concept.

EDIT:

In general this board is mostly filled with two kinds of posters:

a) people who raise every single Avs player in the sky, everything is peachy according to them, Sacco is our only problem and they attack everyone who dares to say anything against them
b) people who think that the vast majority of our players sucks and that there's no hope for this team

I have a hard time deciding who's more annoying in their blind attempts do defend their POV.


Last edited by Ivan13: 04-07-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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04-07-2013, 09:04 AM
  #227
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He has already made Hunwick look good. Or at least not a liability.
Was gonna say this. This is the most impressive Hunwick has looked to me apart from a brief spell last season last season where he may also have been paired with Johnson. The *****ing about Johnsons partners isn't because he doesn't make them better, its the fact he has to make them better to make them a passable defending. This means he isn't allowed to flourish and use all his skills as he is too busy making his partner adequate.

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04-07-2013, 09:22 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Playing with better players will probably make every player look better and playing with bad/worse players will make them look worse. I find it quite amusing that some people find that as a some kind of an alien concept.

EDIT:

In general this board is mostly filled with two kinds of posters:

a) people who raise every single Avs player in the sky, everything is peachy according to them, Sacco is our only problem and they attack everyone who dares to say anything against them
b) people who think that the vast majority of our players sucks and that there's no hope for this team

I have a hard time deciding who's more annoying in their blind attempts do defend their POV.
It's not an allien concept, on the contrary it is pretty obvious.

But the EJ defending is ridiculous to the point that after his blunder against Detroit a few fans managed to blame Hunwick for that.

You can't blame Hunwick for EJ's poor production or his terrible performance on the PP. What happens here is this:

Hunwick plays a good game = EJ makes him a passable Dmen
Hunwick plays a bad game = God Hunwick sucks!
EJ has a good game = See, he needs to play for 30 minutes.
EJ has a bad game = Poor EJ, had to spend the night covering for Hunwick.

Let's not forget that when we signed Hejda he was supossed to be the veteran stay at home defensemen to pair with EJ, and they sucked mightly toghether. Now the sexy name around here is Scuderi.

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04-07-2013, 09:37 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
It's not an allien concept, on the contrary it is pretty obvious.

But the EJ defending is ridiculous to the point that after his blunder against Detroit a few fans managed to blame Hunwick for that.

You can't blame Hunwick for EJ's poor production or his terrible performance on the PP. What happens here is this:

Hunwick plays a good game = EJ makes him a passable Dmen
Hunwick plays a bad game = God Hunwick sucks!
EJ has a good game = See, he needs to play for 30 minutes.
EJ has a bad game = Poor EJ, had to spend the night covering for Hunwick.

Let's not forget that when we signed Hejda he was supossed to be the veteran stay at home defensemen to pair with EJ, and they sucked mightly toghether. Now the sexy name around here is Scuderi.
Yeah I agree that it's ridiculous to blame every single one of EJ' blunders (and sadly he had a fair share of them this season) on his partners, but I tend to think that it's also unreasonable to think that a better partner wouldn't help EJ.

As for Hejda - EJ pairing, they sucked when they first got put together, but when Hejda calmed down and started playing better they were never put together as a pairing. I simply can't understand why Sacco didn't even try that for a game or two, he had nothing to lose by doing so.

Now considering Scuderi, he's miles better than Hejda, he's one of the best pure defensive defensemen in the game and if we do get him I'd rather see him play with Barrie than with EJ because I believe that EJ needs a guy who can actaully move the puck next to himself. IMHO he's much like Shea Weber in that regard (FTR I'm not saying he's as good as Weber), Weber looked much better when he had Suter (who was the primary puck carrier on that pairing) comapred to how he looked with Hamphuis in the past and Josi this season. As I've said before idealy you move Stastny for a PMD who can play with EJ (of course if Radar and Dutchy are re-signed long term), then you bring in Scuderi to play with Barrie on the 2nd pairing and you move Hejda down to the 3rd pairing and play him with Elliott.

Granted thsi scenario is a bit of a long shot since it would require the Avs to get rid of at least two of Zanon, Hunwick, Wilson and O'Brien and Scuderi would need to sign with us.

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04-07-2013, 10:31 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Playing with better players will probably make every player look better and playing with bad/worse players will make them look worse. I find it quite amusing that some people find that as a some kind of an alien concept.

EDIT:

In general this board is mostly filled with two kinds of posters:

a) people who raise every single Avs player in the sky, everything is peachy according to them, Sacco is our only problem and they attack everyone who dares to say anything against them
b) people who think that the vast majority of our players sucks and that there's no hope for this team

I have a hard time deciding who's more annoying in their blind attempts do defend their POV.
I'll go out on a limb and say that literally no one on this board thinks Sacco is the only thing wrong with this team. Most if not everyone here would agree there were about 3-4 defenseman that were god awful this season, and the rest of the leaders they need to lean on for points outside of Dutchy and PAP didn't have particularly good seasons either. Especially Jones who was awful. Everyone also would agree that EJ was concussed for a while, and hasn't been anything special in most of the games he did play.

Saying this team will be much better with a new coach, and that certain players can play better under someone else isn't giving excuses to guys. They should have been better, but this isn't exactly the first time a promising young team has underperformed. Many times the remedy is the extra years of development and learning from the experience, and a new coach. Doesn't mean they don't also need a better defense, and another top pairing D and maybe scoring winger.

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04-07-2013, 10:53 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'll go out on a limb and say that literally no one on this board thinks Sacco is the only thing wrong with this team. Most if not everyone here would agree there were about 3-4 defenseman that were god awful this season, and the rest of the leaders they need to lean on for points outside of Dutchy and PAP didn't have particularly good seasons either. Especially Jones who was awful. Everyone also would agree that EJ was concussed for a while, and hasn't been anything special in most of the games he did play.

Saying this team will be much better with a new coach, and that certain players can play better under someone else isn't giving excuses to guys. They should have been better, but this isn't exactly the first time a promising young team has underperformed. Many times the remedy is the extra years of development and learning from the experience, and a new coach. Doesn't mean they don't also need a better defense, and another top pairing D and maybe scoring winger.
I've seen enough of posters saying EJ is awesome when in reality he's just OK, I've seen a lot of people jumping up wanting to take someones head off when they say Duchene or Landeskog are playing under their best level.

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04-07-2013, 11:19 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
What happens here is this:

Hunwick plays a good game = EJ makes him a passable Dmen
Hunwick plays a bad game = God Hunwick sucks!
EJ has a good game = See, he needs to play for 30 minutes.
EJ has a bad game = Poor EJ, had to spend the night covering for Hunwick.
Absolutely perfect replay of what routinely happens in this forum. Well done.

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04-12-2013, 03:07 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Yep. Avs got an OK player, but gave up two darn good ones.

Too bad.
Out of honest curiosity, if Shatty doesn't become the stud everyone thinks, and stays a 40 point offensive defenseman, and Stewart continues along his hot cold path and puts up 15 goals and 30 points next year, does your opinion on how lopsided the trade change?

They've both come back down to earth since their hot start this year.

Shattenkirk - 1g 1a in the last 15 games.
Stewart - 1g 1a in the last 9 games.

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04-12-2013, 03:33 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Out of honest curiosity, if Shatty doesn't become the stud everyone thinks, and stays a 40 point offensive defenseman, and Stewart continues along his hot cold path and puts up 15 goals and 30 points next year, does your opinion on how lopsided the trade change?

They've both come back down to earth since their hot start this year.

Shattenkirk - 1g 1a in the last 15 games.
Stewart - 1g 1a in the last 9 games.
But that's more goals than EJ has all season!

Dater says he's doubtful to play tomorrow due to a wrist injury.

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04-12-2013, 03:42 PM
  #235
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But that's more goals than EJ has all season!

Dater says he's doubtful to play tomorrow due to a wrist injury.
EJ hurt his wrist? That should help the tank.

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04-12-2013, 03:43 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Out of honest curiosity, if Shatty doesn't become the stud everyone thinks, and stays a 40 point offensive defenseman, and Stewart continues along his hot cold path and puts up 15 goals and 30 points next year, does your opinion on how lopsided the trade change?

They've both come back down to earth since their hot start this year.

Shattenkirk - 1g 1a in the last 15 games.
Stewart - 1g 1a in the last 9 games.
Stewart still has 10 points in his last 15 games, and 2 points in his last 4 games. He's had a very good season, but went through a five game pointless streak recently.

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04-12-2013, 04:06 PM
  #237
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Stewart still has 10 points in his last 15 games, and 2 points in his last 4 games. He's had a very good season, but went through a five game pointless streak recently.
He's very hot and cold. I'm saying if he's cold next year, doesn't that change things?

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04-12-2013, 04:23 PM
  #238
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Stewart still has 10 points in his last 15 games, and 2 points in his last 4 games. He's had a very good season, but went through a five game pointless streak recently.
It's his contract season. Of course he's going to play well.

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04-12-2013, 04:31 PM
  #239
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He's very hot and cold. I'm saying if he's cold next year, doesn't that change things?
If he's still relatively productive and the Avalanche still stink, then no.

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04-12-2013, 05:48 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Out of honest curiosity, if Shatty doesn't become the stud everyone thinks, and stays a 40 point offensive defenseman, and Stewart continues along his hot cold path and puts up 15 goals and 30 points next year, does your opinion on how lopsided the trade change?
Of course. It makes no sense to stubbornly adhere to a position if evidence doesn't support it.

But what would change my opinion even more, is EJ consistently playing like a 1st pairing defenseman.

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04-12-2013, 05:55 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Of course. It makes no sense to stubbornly adhere to a position if evidence doesn't support it.

But what would change my opinion even more, is EJ consistently playing like a 1st pairing defenseman.
That's fair.

Also, under that situation, would EJ playing solid D, and putting up around 35 points with a legit D partner that handles more of the offense, and them forming a good duo with a new coach qualify as being a top pairing defenseman? Or does he have to be in the 45+ point category in your opinion?

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04-12-2013, 06:40 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
That's fair.

Also, under that situation, would EJ playing solid D, and putting up around 35 points with a legit D partner that handles more of the offense, and them forming a good duo with a new coach qualify as being a top pairing defenseman? Or does he have to be in the 45+ point category in your opinion?
That's basically Weber/Suter/Chara territory.

40,20,53,43,48,49-Weber (42 point average)
16,24,31,45,37,39,46-Suter (34 average, 39.6 if you only take last 5 seasons)
43,43,51,50,44,44,52-Chara (since lockout)

To expect EJ to be at around 45 points, while also playing against the top opposition 25 minutes a night, is basically expecting him to be Weber.

Guys like Edler/Seabrook/Phaneuf (Toronto)/Kronwall would probably be more fitting. More 35 point range with hopes for repeating one of the their career best seasons.


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04-12-2013, 06:45 PM
  #243
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That's basically Weber/Suter/Chara territory.

40,20,53,43,48,49-Weber (42 point average)
16,24,31,45,37,39,46-Suter (34 average, 39.6 if you only take last 5 seasons)
43,43,51,50,44,44,52-Chara (since lockout)

To expect EJ to be at around 45 points, while also playing against the top opposition 25 minutes a night, is basically expecting him to be Weber.
Except Weber is better defensively, has one of the hardest shots in the game that actually gets through, and is actually good at shutting down the other team.

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04-12-2013, 06:56 PM
  #244
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Except Weber is better defensively, has one of the hardest shots in the game that actually gets through, and is actually good at shutting down the other team.
Right... So if EJ needs to get 45+ points to be considered a top pairing defenceman, which is right around where Weber usually finishes, then the expectation is for him to perform like Weber.


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04-12-2013, 07:45 PM
  #245
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Right... So if EJ needs to get 45+ points to be considered a top pairing defenceman, which is right around where Weber usually finishes, then the expectation is for him to perform like Weber.
He also needs to hit and get his shots on net to be Weber.

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04-12-2013, 07:47 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
That's fair.

Also, under that situation, would EJ playing solid D, and putting up around 35 points with a legit D partner that handles more of the offense, and them forming a good duo with a new coach qualify as being a top pairing defenseman? Or does he have to be in the 45+ point category in your opinion?
In truth, I had the number 40 points in my head, but that number is somewhat arbitrary.

35 points and good consistent defense against other teams' best forwards would be fine by me, and would mitigate the sting of that trade quite a bit.

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04-12-2013, 08:52 PM
  #247
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In truth, I had the number 40 points in my head, but that number is somewhat arbitrary.

35 points and good consistent defense against other teams' best forwards would be fine by me, and would mitigate the sting of that trade quite a bit.
I think he could do it with a competent coach and partner, I mean hell... Suter took a down grade to Spergeon, but Spuggy is WAY better than Hunwick or Zannon.

Yeah yeah... Partner, coach, excuse, excuse... Still I'd like to see EJ get the same chance some of these other #1 defenders have gotten before judging how hes turning out.

Even Weber has taken a hit this year after losing Suter, hes not even in the Norris conversation this year. I think good to great can be the difference in some of these things factoring in. EJ has been pretty good defensively IMO and is still growing.

I'm not giving him a pass, I'm just saying I want to see a different coach and a solid partner before saying that we 'lost' the trade.

Stewart and EJ were both two of my favorite players when the trade happened, and I would rather have EJ here than Stewart, and Barrie is starting to slowly but surely fill in for Kirk's absence.

Does anyone else think that Elliott has looked a little more comfortable in the last couple games as well? Hes starting to get his shot through to the net again, and isn't having insanely blatant defensive blunders once or twice a game now. It's only been a couple games but he seems to be coming out of that shell just a little bit.

Unfortunately, he'll probably score again Saturday and then be sent back down... (Probably not with EJ's injury, but you get the idea...)

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04-13-2013, 04:31 AM
  #248
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I think he could do it with a competent coach and partner, I mean hell... Suter took a down grade to Spergeon, but Spuggy is WAY better than Hunwick or Zannon.
Gods, please tell me that's not really his nickname.

But it's an interesting example. Suter goes from Weber to Spurgeon and puts up the same numbers. Plays the same quality game. This is what I want to see from EJ, regardless of who his partner is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Yeah yeah... Partner, coach, excuse, excuse... Still I'd like to see EJ get the same chance some of these other #1 defenders have gotten before judging how hes turning out.

Even Weber has taken a hit this year after losing Suter, hes not even in the Norris conversation this year.
He's still 10th in the NHL amongst defensemen in scoring, having lost Suter as a partner and having a crew of forwards that are simply terrible. Another player who's putting up solid numbers, even though a great partner left him.

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I think good to great can be the difference in some of these things factoring in. EJ has been pretty good defensively IMO and is still growing.
I agree with both of those statements (though 'pretty good' does not equal fantastic/awesome, etc.). But the guy is 25 years old. How much growth and development is really left? Some guys are late bloomers. I hope he's one.

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04-13-2013, 07:18 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Gods, please tell me that's not really his nickname.

But it's an interesting example. Suter goes from Weber to Spurgeon and puts up the same numbers. Plays the same quality game. This is what I want to see from EJ, regardless of who his partner is.



He's still 10th in the NHL amongst defensemen in scoring, having lost Suter as a partner and having a crew of forwards that are simply terrible. Another player who's putting up solid numbers, even though a great partner left him.



I agree with both of those statements (though 'pretty good' does not equal fantastic/awesome, etc.). But the guy is 25 years old. How much growth and development is really left? Some guys are late bloomers. I hope he's one.
Suter played like crap when he was with Spurgeon and Gilbert to start the season.

Then he's been with Brodin. Who makes strong for the best rookie this year. And already #2, arguably. And will be good for years to come..

Though it's not all about Brodin, it took time with Suter to adjust to new system and be 'the man' as he had no Weber.

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04-13-2013, 09:33 AM
  #250
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Gods, please tell me that's not really his nickname.

But it's an interesting example. Suter goes from Weber to Spurgeon and puts up the same numbers. Plays the same quality game. This is what I want to see from EJ, regardless of who his partner is.
Suter is probably going to win the Norris this season, and makes almost twice what EJ does. Of course he will transition easier from an amazing partner to a good partner.

This is like saying a guy like PAP probably wouldn't help Duchene anymore than Olver because Crosby can switch between wingers and not miss a beat.

I really don't know how you can think that a better partner wouldn't help Johnson. It may not make him a 40+ point defenceman, but it'll probably help him settle into what type of player he is going to be, and allow him to be it consistently.

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