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Ilya Kovalchuk vs Patrick Kane

View Poll Results: Who would you rather have?
Ilya Kovalchuk 221 64.06%
Patrick Kane 124 35.94%
Voters: 345. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-06-2013, 11:21 PM
  #151
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Kovalchuk also gets to play with players with offensive talent in Elias...Zajac.

Kane gets to play with Bolland, Kruger, Carcillo and Jimmy Hayes.

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04-06-2013, 11:47 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kovalchuk also gets to play with players with offensive talent in Elias...Zajac.

Kane gets to play with Bolland, Kruger, Carcillo and Jimmy Hayes.
doesn't play with Elias and Zajac is terrible this year.

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04-07-2013, 12:03 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kovalchuk also gets to play with players with offensive talent in Elias...Zajac.

Kane gets to play with Bolland, Kruger, Carcillo and Jimmy Hayes.
And Kane has spent his entire career with Sharp, Toews, Hossa, etc.

Please, this argument is tired. He's spent about 30 games this season without those guys and still gets ample PP time with all of the above mentioned.

Who were Kovy's linemates when he was scoring 40 and 50 goals consistently in Atlanta?

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04-07-2013, 12:07 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
And Kane has spent his entire career with Sharp, Toews, Hossa, etc.

Please, this argument is tired. He's spent about 30 games this season without those guys and still gets ample PP time with all of the above mentioned.

Who were Kovy's linemates when he was scoring 40 and 50 goals consistently in Atlanta?
I should start counting how many times people try to answer "who's the better player right now" with "well this guy was better 5 years ago!!!!!!"

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04-07-2013, 12:41 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
And Kane has spent his entire career with Sharp, Toews, Hossa, etc.

Please, this argument is tired. He's spent about 30 games this season without those guys and still gets ample PP time with all of the above mentioned.

Who were Kovy's linemates when he was scoring 40 and 50 goals consistently in Atlanta?
Kane does not play the PP with Toews, Hossa, Sharp.

He plays with Stalberg, Kruger and sometimes Saad on the PP.

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04-07-2013, 01:10 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
I don't need to explain Kovalchuk's season two years ago. He produced well under his career average. Kane did the same thing last year. It happened and there's no need to refute it or contextualize it because they both proved (at least in my eyes) that those years were not the norm for them. Kunitz, no matter how many times you bring him up, is still completely irrelevant because he hasn't proven this season isn't a Crosby-induced aberration for him.

What you're continually saying is that Kane's redeeming himself this season doesn't count, something for which there is absolutely no evidence. Something I wonder if you would even be claiming if there weren't a poll comparing Kane to Kovalchuk.

Kovalchuk has to be the one to outproduce Kane because Kane is already outproducing Kovalchuk. This is not that hard to understand. You can call any season an aberration until it's proven otherwise, but that's just it, it has to be proven otherwise. The burden of proof is now on Kovalchuk.

What you're arguing now is how much Kovalchuk will fall vs. how much Kane will rise, assuming both are currently leaving and entering the primes respectively. Not only is this totally different from saying "primes are irrelevant", but it's also complete crap. Kovy might not even be in his prime yet, he might hit it at 32. Kane might hit his at 36. It's not worth it to discuss those as serious possibilities though because there's zero evidence for either claim. There is evidence that primes come between the ages of 24 and 28, so it only makes sense to consider the claim with some evidence over the claim with none.
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
So you picked a totally arbitrary game to start measuring from, and are trying to use that to illustrate a point about how you want Kane's production to have an asterisk because it won't last. Great. What's the huge thing that happened to Patrick Kane 27 games ago that caused this trend and how do you know it will continue on for the rest of the season, O Wise One?

That's precisely what I meant when you said you were piecing together games for Kane. You only want to count the trend from 27 games ago, but not the trend of the whole season. You don't care about the trend since the point streak ended because it had some 3 point games. You're picking and choosing only the trends that agree with you, with no context at all, when the overall trend goes against you. Yet when people do this for Kovy over a timespan of years instead games, only then is it a problem.

As for your other point, present >>> past. Simple as that. We're talking about how these players match up today. What Kovy did 12 years ago isn't what Kovy does today (proof: today he plays on the PK) and what Kane did when he was 18 years old isn't what Kane's doing now at 24.

This is not some 1-year wonder. Not even a split 1.5 year wonder. This is a player that's always had elite potential growing into an elite player. If you don't want to believe that, I can't force you, but the stats bear it out no matter how you try to slice, dice, and dispute them.
I'll ignore the condescending remarks, funny that its coming from the guy in light blue

I simply looked at Kane's point totals and there was a significant drop off 27 games ago. Went from multiple points every game to barely any points... what happened?

I'm not disregarding this season at all, I'm asking (as you go into later) that Kane back this season up to prove its not an aberration. Past play does matter in this context. We all know Kunitz is Crosby-induced because he hasn't produced like this in the past. The onus is magnified for Kunitz, he has to produce like this again for us to believe this is the player he is given his inferior past production. A guy like Kovalchuk who has hit the marks we're talking about several times in the past has much less of an onus.. he's already shown that his top numbers aren't an aberration.

It sounds like you would say that Kovy is the better offensive player if it were not for Kane's production this season (given that last year, Kovy outproduced Kane). That's basing this whole thread on a span of 37 games.. hardly a significant sample size...

For me, the burden of proof is on Kane because, as you said, we don't know what his peak is. It could come at age 36 and be 90 points. It could have been the 88 points a few years ago. We don't know. He's the unknown. Kovalchuk's not, he's done this before. He's produced at the levels we're expecting Kane to produce at going forward. You can, with confidence, call Kovalchuk an 80-90 point forward.. you can't, with the same degree of confidence, do that with Kane. He did it once.. then failed to do it.. and now would probably do it over 82 games. That's not consistency, that's not confidence that he'll hit that number every year going forward.

That was my exact point regarding primes. We don't know. You predicted that Kane was on the way up and Kovy on the way down because of standard conceptions of the ages forwards hit primes.. well guess what, neither Kane nor Kovalchuk are the average forward. Superstar careers don't mirror the average careers. It's foolish to state with any degree of confidence that primes are hit or missed.. they are such an unknown (ex. is Ovy past his prime?) that to bring them up as proof one forward will soon consistently outproduce the other is garbage.

I think Kane is a phenomenonal player, don't get me wrong. He's an elite player with elite potential and he's beginning to show that.. but he's only beginning to show that. He's shown flashes.. but I'm not going to call him the best winger in the game until he does it consistently. If this time next year, he's outproducing Hossa, Kovalchuk, et al. you'd have no argument from me. He's just not there yet. Need to see more.

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04-07-2013, 01:12 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kovalchuk also gets to play with players with offensive talent in Elias...Zajac.

Kane gets to play with Bolland, Kruger, Carcillo and Jimmy Hayes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kane does not play the PP with Toews, Hossa, Sharp.

He plays with Stalberg, Kruger and sometimes Saad on the PP.
Not an avenue you'll want to go down, but you should go back to my response to your playoff post. Would like to hear a response to that one

Meanwhile, Kovalchuk has never played with Elias and Zajac is barely the offensive dynamo. Go look at his career numbers. Elite defensively, but not offensively.

Parise may have been the best linemate of all but Kane has consistently had better linemates around him. Toews, Sharp, Hossa.. even Bolland. Consider Kovy was playing with Loktioniov and Ponikarovsky before he got injured...

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04-07-2013, 01:35 AM
  #158
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Awesome. But we're talking about who's the better player today. Nobody cares who has had better linemates in the past.

Kane's certainly had the inferior ones this season.

(Also, waiting for you to respond to my last post).

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04-07-2013, 01:42 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Kane's certainly had the inferior ones this season.
behindthenet.ca CHI's RW TOI

According to this, Kane's 2nd most frequent linemate this season has been Sharp who is better than anyone Kovalchuk has played with this year. I know he has been hurt, but he has still played a large majority of the season. Henrique is the only one that's even close IMO and even then Kane has played 52% of his time with Sharp and Kovalchuk only has played about 24% of the time with Henrique.

For comparison, here's Kovalchuk:
behindthenet.ca NJ's RW TOI


Last edited by atl thrasher344: 04-07-2013 at 01:56 AM.
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04-07-2013, 01:52 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Awesome. But we're talking about who's the better player today. Nobody cares who has had better linemates in the past.

Kane's certainly had the inferior ones this season.

(Also, waiting for you to respond to my last post).
Zajac, Lotkiniov and Ponikarovsky vs. Sharp and Bolland? C'mon...

Take a look at TOI splits before you say stuff like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
The last season he was significantly above a PPG was 09-10 with the Thrashers, when he put up 58 points in 49 games.
Was traded to New Jersey, scored at a PPG the rest of that season.
60 points in 81 games the next year (of course, that doesn't count!!! ). But in fairness, it's quite obvious he's a much better player than that.
83 points in 77.
27 points in 32.

He was significantly above a PPG at his peak, which was in Atlanta. In NJ he gets more icetime than he ever has in his career, but the numbers hover pretty much right at a PPG (give or take a few hundredths). He doesn't produce as much anymore despite having more opportunity than he ever has before.
You said he's declining, actively trending downward. I want to see stats that prove he will no longer put up seasons like he did last year. We all know that he won't be up his 50 goal seasons anymore.. he's proven that to us through his stats the past few years. He's not that player anymore... but why won't he be able to hit the >PPG mark going forward?

He's not the player he was five years ago but that doesn't mean he's trending downward still.. could be a new plateau.. would like to see the stats that show its not

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04-07-2013, 01:53 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Not an avenue you'll want to go down, but you should go back to my response to your playoff post. Would like to hear a response to that one

Meanwhile, Kovalchuk has never played with Elias and Zajac is barely the offensive dynamo. Go look at his career numbers. Elite defensively, but not offensively.

Parise may have been the best linemate of all but Kane has consistently had better linemates around him. Toews, Sharp, Hossa.. even Bolland. Consider Kovy was playing with Loktioniov and Ponikarovsky before he got injured...
Your playoff post? Talking about the Playoffs where Kovalchuk didn't produce?

Oh but he was hurt so he gets a free pass.

He didn't do anything the year before in the playoffs either.. or the year before that where the Devils got pushed aside quite easily in round 1.

In fact Kovalchuk's playoff numbers are quite poor... a huge drop from his regular season numbers.

Not even in the same ballpark as Cup Final hero Pat Kane whose numbers actually improve in the playoffs.

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04-07-2013, 02:03 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I take Kovalchuk. He is more well rounded. Kane has one of the best hand-pairs in the world but that pretty much is all he has better. Kovalchuk is more durable, has larger skill-set on offense and is actually surprisingly good 200ft player. They are relatively close but i wan't Kovy.
You can never have too much goal scorers.
Patrick Kane's missed 11 NHL games in his career (Regular season + Playoffs). Ilya Kovalchuk's missed 6 NHL games, just this season..

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04-07-2013, 02:03 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Your playoff post? Talking about the Playoffs where Kovalchuk didn't produce?

Oh but he was hurt so he gets a free pass.

He didn't do anything the year before in the playoffs either.. or the year before that where the Devils got pushed aside quite easily in round 1.

In fact Kovalchuk's playoff numbers are quite poor... a huge drop from his regular season numbers.

Not even in the same ballpark as Cup Final hero Pat Kane whose numbers actually improve in the playoffs.
They didn't make the playoffs the year before.. great point there (yea, Kovy didn't carry his team so he's obviously the inferior player, right?)

Kane's certainly looked great the past two playoffs where the Hawks were easily pushed aside in the first series

And yea, I don't really expect Kovalchuk's playoff numbers to mirror his regular season numbers.. given the humongous disparity in games (happens when you spend your career in Atlanta) and the fact that his only deep playoff run coincided with a herniated disc (in which he still produced with).

Btw, look at the stats. Kovy with a herniated disc has produced at nearly the identical clip that Kane has the past two years in the playoffs He was hurt though? He doesn't get a free pass I'm guessing..

EDIT:

You stated that Kane produced with a broken wrist on an 8th seeded Hawks team making it very impressive.

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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
No, he didn't. It was hurt, but not fractured.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nhl/story...ractured-wrist

"We checked it out. There was no fracture."

That injury occurred in the off-season, likely from working out and increasing the stress on the wrist.

And seriously? 6 points in 7 games is producing but 19 points in 23 games isn't? Pretty similar PPG, equates to a difference of 2.5 points over an 82 game season.

Oh, but he did that with the sixth seeded Devils so that obviously makes things less impressive.
If Kane produced the last two years in the playoffs, Kovy certainly has

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04-07-2013, 02:16 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
I'll ignore the condescending remarks, funny that its coming from the guy in light blue

I simply looked at Kane's point totals and there was a significant drop off 27 games ago. Went from multiple points every game to barely any points... what happened?

I'm not disregarding this season at all, I'm asking (as you go into later) that Kane back this season up to prove its not an aberration. Past play does matter in this context. We all know Kunitz is Crosby-induced because he hasn't produced like this in the past. The onus is magnified for Kunitz, he has to produce like this again for us to believe this is the player he is given his inferior past production. A guy like Kovalchuk who has hit the marks we're talking about several times in the past has much less of an onus.. he's already shown that his top numbers aren't an aberration.

It sounds like you would say that Kovy is the better offensive player if it were not for Kane's production this season (given that last year, Kovy outproduced Kane). That's basing this whole thread on a span of 37 games.. hardly a significant sample size...

For me, the burden of proof is on Kane because, as you said, we don't know what his peak is. It could come at age 36 and be 90 points. It could have been the 88 points a few years ago. We don't know. He's the unknown. Kovalchuk's not, he's done this before. He's produced at the levels we're expecting Kane to produce at going forward. You can, with confidence, call Kovalchuk an 80-90 point forward.. you can't, with the same degree of confidence, do that with Kane. He did it once.. then failed to do it.. and now would probably do it over 82 games. That's not consistency, that's not confidence that he'll hit that number every year going forward.

That was my exact point regarding primes. We don't know. You predicted that Kane was on the way up and Kovy on the way down because of standard conceptions of the ages forwards hit primes.. well guess what, neither Kane nor Kovalchuk are the average forward. Superstar careers don't mirror the average careers. It's foolish to state with any degree of confidence that primes are hit or missed.. they are such an unknown (ex. is Ovy past his prime?) that to bring them up as proof one forward will soon consistently outproduce the other is garbage.

I think Kane is a phenomenonal player, don't get me wrong. He's an elite player with elite potential and he's beginning to show that.. but he's only beginning to show that. He's shown flashes.. but I'm not going to call him the best winger in the game until he does it consistently. If this time next year, he's outproducing Hossa, Kovalchuk, et al. you'd have no argument from me. He's just not there yet. Need to see more.
I didn't read this whole post, and the bolded is part of the reason why. What are you talking about?

Kane's the only player in the NHL this year to have 2 different 8-game point streaks, and has 17 points in his last 12 games. For that entire stretch, he's played with Bolland/Hayes/Kruger/Carcillo.

Kane's also only been held off the scoresheet 8 times this year, in 37 games, so on top of producing a ton, he's been extremely consistent.

Sharp was having a tough start to the season prior to being injured (was extremely snake-bitten), Bolland's been having an extremely tough season in general, and for the entirety of Patrick Sharp's absence (13 games ago), Kane's LW has been a rookie (Hayes) or a grinder (Carcillo) - Despite that, he' still produced 17 points in his last 12 games (emphasis), and sits 8th in even-strength scoring in the NHL.

Let me put it into perspective for everyone. Patrick Kane has 44 points this season. Patrick Sharp, Dave Bolland and Jimmy Hayes (Kane's most frequent linemates) have combined for 35 points.

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04-07-2013, 02:24 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kane shows up for the big games.

Kovalchuk doesn't.

Kane, not close.



Also, he is 3rd on the active players list for career OT goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kovalchuk also gets to play with players with offensive talent in Elias...Zajac.

Kane gets to play with Bolland, Kruger, Carcillo and Jimmy Hayes.
There are times where Kovy plays with scrubs too. One game this year I'm pretty sure he was on a line with Matteau and Loktionov. Also Kovalchuk has the capability of playing 20+ minutes every game.

FWIW...I am a Devils and Kovalchuk fan and I was expecting Kane to win this thread easily. I guess Kane is not as good as I thought.

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04-07-2013, 02:30 AM
  #166
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I didn't read this whole post, and the bolded is part of the reason why. What are you talking about?

Kane's the only player in the NHL this year to have 2 different 8-game point streaks, and has 17 points in his last 12 games. For that entire stretch, he's played with Bolland/Hayes/Kruger/Carcillo.

Kane's also only been held off the scoresheet 8 times this year, in 37 games, so on top of producing a ton, he's been extremely consistent.

Sharp was having a tough start to the season prior to being injured (was extremely snake-bitten), Bolland's been having an extremely tough season in general, and for the entirety of Patrick Sharp's absence (13 games ago), Kane's LW has been a rookie (Hayes) or a grinder (Carcillo) - Despite that, he' still produced 17 points in his last 12 games (emphasis), and sits 8th in even-strength scoring in the NHL.

Let me put it into perspective for everyone. Patrick Kane has 44 points this season. Patrick Sharp, Dave Bolland and Jimmy Hayes (Kane's most frequent linemates) have combined for 35 points.
You kind of need to read the other posts to get context. You can't just pick a random post in the midst of a conversation and not wonder what the poster is talking about

I was referring to:
18 points in 11 games = 1.64 PPG
26 points in 27 games = .96 PPG

That's a pretty significant drop-off.. still pretty great, never said otherwise..

And let's not forget Sharp is injured..

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04-07-2013, 02:33 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by NJDevils7 View Post



Also, he is 3rd on the active players list for career OT goals.


Obviously Kane has a cup winning goal but can't really say either hasn't shown up in big games..

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04-07-2013, 02:34 AM
  #168
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As others have said, I'd take Kovy for a hypothetical playoff run and Kane if realistic factors (contract, age) are taken into consideration. I do think Kovalchuk's 2 way game is underrated.

Crazy stat: Last year Kovy was on the Ice for more goals FOR while on the PK than against. That's insane.

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04-07-2013, 02:43 AM
  #169
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You kind of need to read the other posts to get context. You can't just pick a random post in the midst of a conversation and not wonder what the poster is talking about

I was referring to:
18 points in 11 games = 1.64 PPG
26 points in 27 games = .96 PPG

That's a pretty significant drop-off.. still pretty great, never said otherwise..

And let's not forget Sharp is injured..
I don't understand how you can object to dividing Kovalchuk's stats by year to display a downward trend, and then on the other hand do the exact same thing yourself... except with games instead.

Appreciate the response to the other post but really, if you're allowed to make exactly the arguments in one post that you deride in the next, what's the point? Might as well go talk to my pillow.

...which I really should be doing at the moment. No idea what I'm doing on here at 2:45 in the morning

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04-07-2013, 02:47 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
I don't understand how you can object to dividing Kovalchuk's stats by year to display a downward trend, and then on the other hand do the exact same thing yourself... except with games instead.

Appreciate the response to the other post but really, if you're allowed to make exactly the arguments in one post that you deride in the next, what's the point? Might as well go talk to my pillow.

...which I really should be doing at the moment. No idea what I'm doing on here at 2:45 in the morning
Where did I object to dividing Kovalchuk's stats by year to display a downward trend?

I asked how you are extrapolating that his trend will resume even though last year indicated that he is no longer trending downward and has instead hit a nice plateau of 80-85 points..

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04-07-2013, 03:58 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
I'll ignore the condescending remarks, funny that its coming from the guy in light blue

I simply looked at Kane's point totals and there was a significant drop off 27 games ago. Went from multiple points every game to barely any points... what happened?

I'm not disregarding this season at all, I'm asking (as you go into later) that Kane back this season up to prove its not an aberration. Past play does matter in this context. We all know Kunitz is Crosby-induced because he hasn't produced like this in the past. The onus is magnified for Kunitz, he has to produce like this again for us to believe this is the player he is given his inferior past production. A guy like Kovalchuk who has hit the marks we're talking about several times in the past has much less of an onus.. he's already shown that his top numbers aren't an aberration.

It sounds like you would say that Kovy is the better offensive player if it were not for Kane's production this season (given that last year, Kovy outproduced Kane). That's basing this whole thread on a span of 37 games.. hardly a significant sample size...

For me, the burden of proof is on Kane because, as you said, we don't know what his peak is. It could come at age 36 and be 90 points. It could have been the 88 points a few years ago. We don't know. He's the unknown. Kovalchuk's not, he's done this before. He's produced at the levels we're expecting Kane to produce at going forward. You can, with confidence, call Kovalchuk an 80-90 point forward.. you can't, with the same degree of confidence, do that with Kane. He did it once.. then failed to do it.. and now would probably do it over 82 games. That's not consistency, that's not confidence that he'll hit that number every year going forward.

That was my exact point regarding primes. We don't know. You predicted that Kane was on the way up and Kovy on the way down because of standard conceptions of the ages forwards hit primes.. well guess what, neither Kane nor Kovalchuk are the average forward. Superstar careers don't mirror the average careers. It's foolish to state with any degree of confidence that primes are hit or missed.. they are such an unknown (ex. is Ovy past his prime?) that to bring them up as proof one forward will soon consistently outproduce the other is garbage.

I think Kane is a phenomenonal player, don't get me wrong. He's an elite player with elite potential and he's beginning to show that.. but he's only beginning to show that. He's shown flashes.. but I'm not going to call him the best winger in the game until he does it consistently. If this time next year, he's outproducing Hossa, Kovalchuk, et al. you'd have no argument from me. He's just not there yet. Need to see more.
What you're doing is treating Kovalchuk's career as static, unchanging. He did this before so he will do it again. But Kovy's played for 12 years through some completely different-looking years for the NHL. His complete history has little to no bearing what he's doing in recent years. Kovalchuk's scoring from when he was with the Thrashers has been an ever-weakening argument for almost three years now.

The sum total of their past three seasons has Kane outproducing Kovy. You can disregard this because it wasn't consecutive, but even just summing the past two seasons, Kane and Kovy are still tied for points at 110. Granted, Kovy has played 10 fewer games over that span so credit to him. But my whole point has been that there is very clearly an argument to be made for Kane's recent offensive history vs. Kovy's, and there it is plain as day. Even including the worst year of Patrick Kane's career while conveniently ignoring Kovalchuk's, Kane is still keeping pace with Kovalchuk's production for a span of one year, two years, and three years. Kane's recent production compared to Kovalchuk's has already shown the consistency you keep talking about; or at the very least Kane has shown the ability to make up for lost ground.

And for all of the talk about how Kane's prime might be at age 36 and be 90 points, it might also be at age 25 and 180 points. That's what happens when you throw evidence out the window purely for the sake of what's possible instead of what's probable; you can make things up and it's all equally valid.


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04-07-2013, 01:17 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
What you're doing is treating Kovalchuk's career as static, unchanging. He did this before so he will do it again. But Kovy's played for 12 years through some completely different-looking years for the NHL. His complete history has little to no bearing what he's doing in recent years. Kovalchuk's scoring from when he was with the Thrashers has been an ever-weakening argument for almost three years now.

The sum total of their past three seasons has Kane outproducing Kovy. You can disregard this because it wasn't consecutive, but even just summing the past two seasons, Kane and Kovy are still tied for points at 110. Granted, Kovy has played 10 fewer games over that span so credit to him. But my whole point has been that there is very clearly an argument to be made for Kane's recent offensive history vs. Kovy's, and there it is plain as day. Even including the worst year of Patrick Kane's career while conveniently ignoring Kovalchuk's, Kane is still keeping pace with Kovalchuk's production for a span of one year, two years, and three years. Kane's recent production compared to Kovalchuk's has already shown the consistency you keep talking about; or at the very least Kane has shown the ability to make up for lost ground.

And for all of the talk about how Kane's prime might be at age 36 and be 90 points, it might also be at age 25 and 180 points. That's what happens when you throw evidence out the window purely for the sake of what's possible instead of what's probable; you can make things up and it's all equally valid.
I'm treating Kovalchuk's career as static because we know what he's capable of hitting. He's done it. Time and time again. He's done it before countless times so he'll likely be able to do it again. Kane doesn't have that luxury.. yet.

If two players have produced exactly the same over the past two seasons (disregard the extra games, I'm okay with that), I'm going to default to the guy who's consistently done better in the past because he's the guy who's more likely to do it again in the future. As I've said over and over, we don't know what Kane will do from here. We have a better idea what Kovy will do from here for the next few years.

I'm not really sure where I'm throwing any evidence about their primes out the window.. we've both already said that there IS no evidence about where their primes/peaks are at.. more like I'm not willing to make up evidence about them while you just want to extrapolate.

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04-07-2013, 01:20 PM
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Kovy.

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04-07-2013, 01:34 PM
  #174
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Kane.

I didn't like Kovy before he was a Devil and it won't matter how good his linemates are or how many points he'll score..the guy will always be a perennial minus player and a big liability on the ice who spends as much time chasing the puck back to his own zone after his one-and-done shifts. I'd rather take the player who scores 10-15 less points/goals a season if he does more to control the game and make sure it's his team that has the puck where they want it to be.

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04-07-2013, 01:51 PM
  #175
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Couldn't be more wrong, his weakness is that he doesn't want/know how to cycle the puck and he's kind of useless in the dirty areas.

Otherwise, people who have watched him playing the last 2 years know Kovalchuk's turning into a decent 2 way player and a terrific penalty killer. Kovalchuk is effective in all situations.

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