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Ilya Kovalchuk vs Patrick Kane

View Poll Results: Who would you rather have?
Ilya Kovalchuk 221 64.06%
Patrick Kane 124 35.94%
Voters: 345. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-07-2013, 02:08 PM
  #176
deytookerjaabs
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Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
Couldn't be more wrong, his weakness is that he doesn't want/know how to cycle the puck and he's kind of useless in the dirty areas.

Otherwise, people who have watched him playing the last 2 years know Kovalchuk's turning into a decent 2 way player and a terrific penalty killer. Kovalchuk is effective in all situations.
That's where the minuses come from. Teams win by controlling where and how the game is played to suit their talent.

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04-07-2013, 02:10 PM
  #177
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I'd like to see Kane play over 28 minutes a game every game.


And ppl are neglecting the 2 way play. Kovy is much better defensively then Kane.

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04-07-2013, 03:07 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
I'd like to see Kane play over 28 minutes a game every game.


And ppl are neglecting the 2 way play. Kovy is much better defensively then Kane.
Yes, Ilya "Minus Every Season of his Career Outside of One" is sooooo good defensively. Please, just tell us how Ilya's constant turnovers make him a great 2 way player.

Face it, there's more to "two way play" than back checking and playing on the PK. A guy who has a terrible giveaway/takeover ratio and is a minus player regardless of circumstances doesn't deserve to be called a great two way player.

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04-07-2013, 03:20 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
That's where the minuses come from. Teams win by controlling where and how the game is played to suit their talent.
You said he was a liability and that's not true. A liability doesn't get 25 minutes per game. Man is playing off his natural wing, the point on the PP, takes big PK icetime, gets constantly double-shifted on a terrible 4th line... And you guys still try to discredit Kovalchuk with some real-time stats and other +/- ratings. Ok

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04-07-2013, 03:27 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
You said he was a liability and that's not true. A liability doesn't get 25 minutes per game. Man is playing off his natural wing, the point on the PP, takes big PK icetime, gets constantly double-shifted on a terrible 4th line... And you guys still try to discredit Kovalchuk with some real-time stats and other +/- ratings. Ok
BIG PK icetime? Yes, he does spend some time on the PK.

He gets double shifted on the PP for his shot which is great. I don't think you understand how plus/minus can be an excellent relative stat. Regardless of how Kovy is used he's always one of the worst forwards on his team every year (aside from 1 year) in +/-. For as much as the guy scores that's sad.


Last edited by deytookerjaabs: 04-07-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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04-07-2013, 04:01 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Yes, Ilya "Minus Every Season of his Career Outside of One" is sooooo good defensively. Please, just tell us how Ilya's constant turnovers make him a great 2 way player.

Face it, there's more to "two way play" than back checking and playing on the PK. A guy who has a terrible giveaway/takeover ratio and is a minus player regardless of circumstances doesn't deserve to be called a great two way player.
Did I ever say Kovy was a " great" 2 way player? No. I said his defense is better then Kane's. Also, u must've not watched any devils games because Kovys defense has been for more then exceptional.

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04-07-2013, 04:03 PM
  #182
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Yeah bigger icetime than you thought before clicking on NHL.com, right.

He's the Devils PP QB and the days he was out there only for his shot are long gone. Pretty obvious it makes a while you didn't watch him play, maybe the last time he was still playing in the same conference as Chicago...

And I'm glad to not understand how +/- works without any context or eyetest. Statswatching FTW.

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04-07-2013, 04:03 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
Did I ever say Kovy was a " great" 2 way player? No. I said his defense is better then Kane's. Also, u must've not watched any devils games because Kovys defense has been for more then exceptional.
Keeping the puck in the other zone and on your stick is actually the best form of defense.

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04-07-2013, 04:15 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Keeping the puck in the other zone and on your stick is actually the best form of defense.
Well then I guess all of the nhls top dmen and forwards suck at defense too.

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04-07-2013, 04:15 PM
  #185
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I take Kane.

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04-07-2013, 04:22 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
I'm treating Kovalchuk's career as static because we know what he's capable of hitting. He's done it. Time and time again. He's done it before countless times so he'll likely be able to do it again. Kane doesn't have that luxury.. yet.

If two players have produced exactly the same over the past two seasons (disregard the extra games, I'm okay with that), I'm going to default to the guy who's consistently done better in the past because he's the guy who's more likely to do it again in the future. As I've said over and over, we don't know what Kane will do from here. We have a better idea what Kovy will do from here for the next few years.

I'm not really sure where I'm throwing any evidence about their primes out the window.. we've both already said that there IS no evidence about where their primes/peaks are at.. more like I'm not willing to make up evidence about them while you just want to extrapolate.
This entire argument has been nothing but extrapolation.

Anyways, careers aren't static. They go up and down just like everything else. Jagr is no longer one of the top 10 players in the game, and Brodeur is not an automatic Vezina candidate anymore.

A player's recent history is a better indicator of current and future performance than their entire career's history.

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04-07-2013, 04:35 PM
  #187
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Kane is a hell of a player, and wish Chicago the best. Since the Devils ain't going anywhere I'll root for you during the playoffs. And FWIW, Hossa is one of my fave.


Now I'm done with this thread.

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04-07-2013, 04:52 PM
  #188
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Kovy easily for me. Good poll though.

Kane is a great player but Kovy brings a more well rounded game and is a top 3 sniper in this league aswell being good defensively and having great size and great skating ability with that size.

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04-07-2013, 05:44 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
This entire argument has been nothing but extrapolation.

Anyways, careers aren't static. They go up and down just like everything else. Jagr is no longer one of the top 10 players in the game, and Brodeur is not an automatic Vezina candidate anymore.

A player's recent history is a better indicator of current and future performance than their entire career's history.
Sorry, meant that you want to extrapolate based on evidence that doesn't necessarily apply while I'm not willing to do so. That's what I was talking about earlier in that paragraph..

Careers aren't static, but they do have plateaus. Somehow, (still waiting to see those stats, Chris Hansen)... Kovalchuk is definitely going to trend downward starting tomorrow..

The poll speaks for itself, honestly.. HF isn't experts but you don't get this lopsided of a poll quite easily around here. Especially when you consider almost all sources of bias (Chicago, American player, more marketed/popular player) favor Kane..

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04-07-2013, 05:52 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Sorry, meant that you want to extrapolate based on evidence that doesn't necessarily apply while I'm not willing to do so. That's what I was talking about earlier in that paragraph..

Careers aren't static, but they do have plateaus. Somehow, (still waiting to see those stats, Chris Hansen)... Kovalchuk is definitely going to trend downward starting tomorrow..

The poll speaks for itself, honestly.. HF isn't experts but you don't get this lopsided of a poll quite easily around here. Especially when you consider almost all sources of bias (Chicago, American player, more marketed/popular player) favor Kane..


Now, all of the sudden HF polls are legit and that's where the experts state their case.

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04-07-2013, 06:47 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Sorry, meant that you want to extrapolate based on evidence that doesn't necessarily apply while I'm not willing to do so. That's what I was talking about earlier in that paragraph..

Careers aren't static, but they do have plateaus. Somehow, (still waiting to see those stats, Chris Hansen)... Kovalchuk is definitely going to trend downward starting tomorrow..

The poll speaks for itself, honestly.. HF isn't experts but you don't get this lopsided of a poll quite easily around here. Especially when you consider almost all sources of bias (Chicago, American player, more marketed/popular player) favor Kane..
Your insistence on focusing only on Kovalchuk's entire career instead of his recent history is precisely what you claim not to be doing, extrapolating based on evidence that doesn't necessarily apply.

Careers have plateaus, they also have upwards and downwards slopes. I haven't said Kovalchuk is trending down, I've said Kane's offensive game is trending higher than Kovalchuk's, something that the last three years of stats bear out.

Talking about HF poll results as if they indicate anything more than popular opinion. C'mon now.

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04-07-2013, 06:59 PM
  #192
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Kane.. in shootouts

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04-07-2013, 07:53 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by HockeySens View Post
Kane.. in shootouts
No fair. Kovy is still great in the shoot outs/ breakaways.

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04-07-2013, 11:17 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Kane.

I didn't like Kovy before he was a Devil and it won't matter how good his linemates are or how many points he'll score..the guy will always be a perennial minus player and a big liability on the ice who spends as much time chasing the puck back to his own zone after his one-and-done shifts. I'd rather take the player who scores 10-15 less points/goals a season if he does more to control the game and make sure it's his team that has the puck where they want it to be.
Try to be objective. Kovy is better defensively than Kane.

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04-08-2013, 12:19 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
Try to be objective. Kovy is better defensively than Kane.

It's cute that you think giving away the puck constantly and running back to your zone is being good defensively. Plenty of great defensive forwards aren't needed on the PK and certainly Kane is far better in the neutral zone and the cycle..therefore leading to less goals against while on the ice..try to be objective and realize how hockey is played.

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04-08-2013, 06:09 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post


Now, all of the sudden HF polls are legit and that's where the experts state their case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
The poll speaks for itself, honestly.. HF isn't experts but you don't get this lopsided of a poll quite easily around here. Especially when you consider almost all sources of bias (Chicago, American player, more marketed/popular player) favor Kane..
Ya know, reading comprehension helps. I know you hate Kovalchuk, you've said it time and time again... but at least try to feign that you belong in this conversation. I'm sorry he stole your candy when you were a kid..

I like how you defaulted back to the real time stats argument even though I showed you how foolish that was in the last rendition of this thread (and the advanced stats strongly disagree). We can't all play in Chicago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Your insistence on focusing only on Kovalchuk's entire career instead of his recent history is precisely what you claim not to be doing, extrapolating based on evidence that doesn't necessarily apply.

Careers have plateaus, they also have upwards and downwards slopes. I haven't said Kovalchuk is trending down, I've said Kane's offensive game is trending higher than Kovalchuk's, something that the last three years of stats bear out.

Talking about HF poll results as if they indicate anything more than popular opinion. C'mon now.
You keep saying I'm focusing only on his career.. I'm not. I'm using his career to place recent seasons in context. As I'm doing with Kane. That's valid extrapolation. Obviously may not hold true, but that's kind of the definition of extrapolation. You wanted to extrapolate based on "well, Kovy is going out of his prime and Kane is going into it" which isn't really anything to base any sort of extrapolation on given we know nothing of either player's prime/peaks.

This time next year, if Kane is outproducing Kovalchuk, there's no arguments by me as to who is trending up or down.. but what happens if Kovy outproduces Kane? Now you have three seasons (seems to be the sample size you want to use) where Kovalchuk would have outproduced Kane in two of them, including the most recent... is Kovalchuk the better player then?

Because if you say yes (as you should, given thats your argument for Kane), your criteria are way too lenient. Better offensive player should be a consistent title, until its not anymore and belongs to the other player.. not a "what have you done for me lately" badge.

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04-08-2013, 07:19 AM
  #197
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Kovy is a beast. Glad to see him winning this. I would definitely want him before Kane.

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04-08-2013, 09:47 AM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
You keep saying I'm focusing only on his career.. I'm not. I'm using his career to place recent seasons in context. As I'm doing with Kane. That's valid extrapolation. Obviously may not hold true, but that's kind of the definition of extrapolation. You wanted to extrapolate based on "well, Kovy is going out of his prime and Kane is going into it" which isn't really anything to base any sort of extrapolation on given we know nothing of either player's prime/peaks.

This time next year, if Kane is outproducing Kovalchuk, there's no arguments by me as to who is trending up or down.. but what happens if Kovy outproduces Kane? Now you have three seasons (seems to be the sample size you want to use) where Kovalchuk would have outproduced Kane in two of them, including the most recent... is Kovalchuk the better player then?

Because if you say yes (as you should, given thats your argument for Kane), your criteria are way too lenient. Better offensive player should be a consistent title, until its not anymore and belongs to the other player.. not a "what have you done for me lately" badge.
The bolded is, at best, a semantic difference from "extrapolating based on evidence that doesn't necessarily apply."

Sure, under those circumstances, I'd say Kovy was superior. No title should ever be consistent; that's why we re-evaluate all of them every year. I'm not saying that only one year matters, but I do think that the most recent seasons are always more significant, especially when you've played through as many changes in the NHL as Kovy has.

You keep saying that if Kane is doing this again next year, you'll concede. It sounds to me like we've both used a lot of words to say that I'm okay with a sample size of the past three seasons while you'd prefer four.

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04-08-2013, 12:52 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
The bolded is, at best, a semantic difference from "extrapolating based on evidence that doesn't necessarily apply."

Sure, under those circumstances, I'd say Kovy was superior. No title should ever be consistent; that's why we re-evaluate all of them every year. I'm not saying that only one year matters, but I do think that the most recent seasons are always more significant, especially when you've played through as many changes in the NHL as Kovy has.

You keep saying that if Kane is doing this again next year, you'll concede. It sounds to me like we've both used a lot of words to say that I'm okay with a sample size of the past three seasons while you'd prefer four.
Not really a semantic difference, more like what I think is relevant evidence, you think isn't.

I mean, most recent seasons are always more significant.. but we're talking about 38 games here and giving it the same stock as an 82 game season.. not really sure how that works.

I'm not okay or against three or four season sample sizes. I'm looking for consistency. I'm looking for the player who outproduces the other for a period of years.. STRAIGHT. Not one, skip one, another one. Maybe next year the trend continues and Kane shoots downward and Kovy upward.. kinda foolish to say Kane is the better offensive player then.

As of TODAY? Kane. He's hotter and producing more (and healthy )
For the next 2-4 years? I take Kovalchuk. He's the safer bet to get to >1PPG.
After that (or probably in year 3)? I take Kane.

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04-08-2013, 01:33 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Not really a semantic difference, more like what I think is relevant evidence, you think isn't.

I mean, most recent seasons are always more significant.. but we're talking about 38 games here and giving it the same stock as an 82 game season.. not really sure how that works.

I'm not okay or against three or four season sample sizes. I'm looking for consistency. I'm looking for the player who outproduces the other for a period of years.. STRAIGHT. Not one, skip one, another one. Maybe next year the trend continues and Kane shoots downward and Kovy upward.. kinda foolish to say Kane is the better offensive player then.

As of TODAY? Kane. He's hotter and producing more (and healthy )
For the next 2-4 years? I take Kovalchuk. He's the safer bet to get to >1PPG.
After that (or probably in year 3)? I take Kane.
See, this is your problem. You refuse to acknowledge that over the last four seasons combined Kane has outproduced Kovalchuk or draw any meaning from it.

Since 2009-2010:
Kane: 273 points in 275 GP = 0.993 PPG
Kovalchuk: 255 points in 266 GP = 0.957 PPG

Just what sample size is "big enough for you" if you can't acknowledge that since being traded to the Devils, Kane has outproduced Kovalchuk (of course it's close though). You seem convinced that we should ignore the last 3/4 years Kane has been PPG+ and assume he may still probably be that 70 point player he was when he was 18 years old. The year Kovalchuk had 98 points with the Thrashers there were 7 players that put up over 100 points and 23 that had over 82. It's apples and oranges to now a day (by comparison, 6 players had 82 points last year). It seems foolish to suggest that Kovalchuk is still capable of that.

The only one "picking and choosing" a year from here, a year from there is you. What with your whole Kovalchuk's 2010-2011 doesn't count (but Kane's 2011-2012 does, right?) and how this year doesn't count because it's a short season (and Kane would definitely regress, am I right?) Kovalchuk's certainly had a terrific career and I think it's great he's adapted his game to where he sacrificed some points for a better two way game and PK duties. But you seem to think the point producer Kovalchuk was in Atlanta still applies today.. that was FOUR years ago.. with how short hockey careers are that's a big difference. Just like how Kovalchuk is no longer that 0.8 PPG producer he was his first couple of seasons in the NHL, he's also no longer the 1.11 PPG producer he was from his third season to the end of his tenure in Atlanta.

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