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Mika Zibanejad is the real deal 2.0

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Old
04-06-2013, 07:21 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by sens2k9 View Post
I think its absolutely absurd for you to say something like this.
There are just as many idiots who "have played the game", if not more.
I wouldn't bother arguing with him. He likes to talk down other people instead of just worrying about his own frame of mind. He constantly references these kinds of things in his posts as though they bring more validity to what he is saying.

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04-06-2013, 07:25 PM
  #927
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People gave up on him? When was this? I do remember there were some concerns about his concussion but I wasn't following the ahl or hockey in general during the lockout.

Seems weird that some would give up on an 18/19 year old.

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04-06-2013, 07:33 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by magix View Post
People gave up on him? When was this? I do remember there were some concerns about his concussion but I wasn't following the ahl or hockey in general during the lockout.

Seems weird that some would give up on an 18/19 year old.
Where have you been? People, not longer than 3 months ago, were claiming it will be a success if he became a third liner.

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04-06-2013, 07:38 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Where have you been? People, not longer than 3 months ago, were claiming it will be a success if he became a third liner.
O_o

Time to go back to the beginning of this thread.

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04-06-2013, 07:41 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by magix View Post
People gave up on him? When was this? I do remember there were some concerns about his concussion but I wasn't following the ahl or hockey in general during the lockout.

Seems weird that some would give up on an 18/19 year old.
I don't know if people "gave up on him" but a lot of people, myself included, had some scepticism as to whether or not he would be able to reach his potential due to the set-backs he was seemingly going through.

I think I can speak for most of those people that we are more than happy to see him excel with the team.

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04-06-2013, 07:41 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by magix View Post
O_o

Time to go back to the beginning of this thread.
Might have to go back to 1.0 to find the good stuff.

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04-06-2013, 07:48 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
had some scepticism as to whether or not he would be able to reach his potential due to the set-backs he was seemingly going through.
Before he returned to the BSens this year, he wasn't playing, no one seemed to know why, the Sens weren't saying anything. I was worrying for sure.

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04-06-2013, 07:52 PM
  #933
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I was worried that if he maxed out as a 3rd line grinder who could only score 15 goals a season, we'd missed the boat on Couts. (Couts who is on pace for, what? 15 goals? Oh world - you so crazy.)

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04-06-2013, 07:54 PM
  #934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magix View Post
People gave up on him? When was this? I do remember there were some concerns about his concussion but I wasn't following the ahl or hockey in general during the lockout.

Seems weird that some would give up on an 18/19 year old.
yeah not to long ago i was talking with people in here about him.

Basically most had the idea that we should have drafted Hamilton or Couturier and that they thought Zbad was taken way off the board and that based on his hockey sense he seemed to project as a third liner.

I told people in here i guess it's a possibility he is only a third liner but if you read a lot of the scouting reports and watched his U18 before his draft it's pretty clear why he shot up and was for sure a top 10 pick and not off the boards at all.

I also told them to relax he's young and has not progressed at a high level due to 3 times where he exhibited concussion symptoms but he should be back on course and he is still very young.

I'll say he never showed THIS level of play yet especially the play making but i was trying to tell people scouts really emphasized how high end his tools were ie shot, speed, physicality ect... and that he projected as high as a first liner and probably at lower end a very good third liner if he couldn't put it together, but he's barely played so don't think he hasn't put it together yet.

another thing really emphasized that i had heard on some interviews with scouts was his intelligence. some people here argued book smart isn't hockey smart but it wasn't book smarts it was just overall smarts and understanding and ability to take things in and understand but people twist things on the net when they argue so W/E

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04-06-2013, 08:21 PM
  #935
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"Hamilton is the guy you should be bummed about that we passed on. Top pairing defenceman."


"Only player I am really upset we passed on is Hamilton, as I have been pretty much since it happened. And that's in no way a slight against Zibanejad, I just think Hamilton will be a top 30 DMan in the NHL."



"I want to see him succeed. Big time.But he might be another guy in a long list of players with all the tools and no tool box. That isn't to say he isn't a smart player - just that he can't seem to put it all together and actually produce."



"He's a project, yes, but rarely do star players show nothing for years before they blossom. I'm not convinced Z has the offensive mind to be a ppg two-way player in the NHL. I remember watching Hossa and you could see the continuous progression. There was one year, I think 03-04, where he came back from summer camp totally jacked and turned his game up a notch. I think he was 23-24 at that point, but even before then you could see it in him. Again, I'm not sure if Mika has it in him."



"Really? How come he's never been his team's top scorer? I don't think too many are basing their critisism (I consider it as much trying to keep people's expectations down to earth rather than bashing our own players, though) of his lack of scoring in the small sample that are his AHL games, but his play there might have solidified some concerns many have had. As for Hossa, he was always way smarter, way more skilled. He tore up the Slovakian men's league in his draft year and the WHL in his first year in North America, produced lots for two ****** Slovakian U20 teams at the WJC. He then went on to put up 0.5 PPG in his first year as an NHLer. No matter what way you look at it, there's not much similar in their career paths."



"Just wish we would have went BPA."



"Maybe we could start to accept that Zibanejad has no finish, and that he'll be a good NHL'er and nothing more."



"We are seeing the real Zibanejad. He's never put up numbers at any level, ever.To suggest that he is going to be a 50-60 point NHL'er is a fantasy at best. He's a long, LONG way from there."



"If you guys want to get your jimmies all rustled, be my guest. The fact is that guys that score, score at every level their whole way up the pro ladder.Guys take time to adjust to each higher level, true. However, if we look at a guy like Spezza, he was putting up 2 ppg in junior, 1 ppg in the AHL in his first stint, and well over that in the lockout season.So the SEL is tougher and lower scoring than the CHL. Fine, I can accept that argument. Havlat was almost at 1 ppg his second season in the Czech league. Alfredsson had 20 goals in his 2nd year in the SEL. Mika has never shown that he can score at any level. Yet he is supposed to develop into a 50-60 point NHL'er? Come on. He's not going to be a more offensive Mike Fisher. I'd say a more physical Chris Kelly is what we're most likely to get from him."



"Comparing SEL numbers year-by-year for different prospects can be deceptive unless put in perspective. Most players get very little ice-time and no power play time. Some players are more physically mature and are thrown out there against men earlier, lika Ziba. Fact is Zibanejad put up 5 goals in SEL playing top-6 minutes and getting power play ice. I can agree to many things John Holmes is saying on the expectations on him being a big-time producer."


"I'm still curious as to why the Sens had such a hate on for Couturier. Looks like a few teams are going to regret passing on him."



"Zibanejad was our "worst case scenario" pick. We got bumped to 6th and all the guys we wanted were gone. How does nobody remember this?"



"I don't think Zibanejad will ever be as good as Couturier. We're going to look pretty stupid for passing on him, but we won't be alone."


"I think so too & Mark Scheifele C but Zibanejad could turn into a very good two way 3rd line centre with better offensive potential than most 3rd line centres. However, I have the same hope for Derek Grant."



"The mistake was winning games and losing landeskog. And picking zib over couturier."



"Zibanejad's biggest downfall though is still his hockey sense. Pretty hard to develop that aspect of you're game. That's what concerns me the most about him. A poor man Mike Fisher with less grit and toughness."



"This is a very "pro Murray" board. There is not much room for "sense" or reality here." "




lol and thats barely 10 pages from 1.0 ...

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Old
04-07-2013, 01:55 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I think Zibanejad is still the league's most intriguing prospect.

Mostly because he still as raw now as he was when he was drafted and also still not even close to filling out his potential(physically)... yet at the same time is already a beast.

I'm trying to temper expectations but man if there was ever an expression of "the sky is the limit" it's what you call a player like Zibanejad.
The most praise I've heaped on Zibanejad is that I think he will be better than Silfverberg, but I'm going to take it one step further and say that in a perfect storm, I think he could be a runaway Conn Smythe winner. Like Malkin's year. I have liked Hamilton more than him since before he was drafted but I will say that gap is closer than ever for me.

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04-07-2013, 02:00 PM
  #937
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He has stupid hair.

He's a beast out there though.

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04-07-2013, 02:01 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by sens2k9 View Post
I think its absolutely absurd for you to say something like this.
There are just as many idiots who "have played the game", if not more.
That's not untrue. Playing or athletic athletic ability isn't requisite to understand this stuff, but to not have it can be detrimental to understanding it, and to have it can be very beneficial. This isn't cause and effect.

There would be an obvious relationship between people that evaluate talent well and people who are athletically oriented or that played and understand hockey. But yes, not cause and effect. If that's how you took it...miscommunication.

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04-07-2013, 02:39 PM
  #939
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I'm very happy with Zibanejad's progression. He just does so many little things you don't see on the scoresheet such as battling hard, playing a solid defensive game and driving the net.

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04-07-2013, 03:03 PM
  #940
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They should just promote his line over Alfredsson line.

The top Turris line is too slow and doesn't really generate any chances.

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04-07-2013, 03:14 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by testinz View Post
They should just promote his line over Alfredsson line.

The top Turris line is too slow and doesn't really generate any chances.
Question is though how the zibby line would fare against better competion, since that is what the 1st line usually have to do. So I would say it is quite hard comparing them at the moment, even though they look faster and more dangerous on the offensive.

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04-07-2013, 03:21 PM
  #942
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I think he plays best when he lays on the body. Sure he can score, but he is especially effective when he punishes people while threatening to put the puck in the net.

I was not sold on him prior to this season, mostly because he played soft in the few games he was in last year. Like all developing player, the more consistent he becomes the better he will be. Also, like with all developing players, it is very difficult to predict where he will max out.

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04-07-2013, 04:20 PM
  #943
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
That's not untrue. Playing or athletic athletic ability isn't requisite to understand this stuff, but to not have it can be detrimental to understanding it, and to have it can be very beneficial. This isn't cause and effect.

There would be an obvious relationship between people that evaluate talent well and people who are athletically oriented or that played and understand hockey. But yes, not cause and effect. If that's how you took it...miscommunication.
Tim Murray
Mike Milbury

I guess you're right, obviously the athletic guy "gets it".

Honestly to suggest that people who stated that Zibanejad had "poor hockey sense" are just un-athletic people is just.. ignorant I guess.

Talent evaluation is a skill like any other. Some people can do it and some can't.

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04-07-2013, 04:27 PM
  #944
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Minister...you don't have a leg to stand on here...to suggest the people that didn't know Zibby would be good to date (and let's agree that while it is exciting right now we still have no idea how he will end up as a player) were somehow at a disadvantage because they weren't/aren't athletic is just ridiculous.

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04-07-2013, 04:52 PM
  #945
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I get excited to watch zibby every game, today is no exception... gooooo sens!

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04-07-2013, 05:05 PM
  #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sens2k9 View Post
Tim Murray
Mike Milbury

I guess you're right, obviously the athletic guy "gets it".

Honestly to suggest that people who stated that Zibanejad had "poor hockey sense" are just un-athletic people is just.. ignorant I guess.

Talent evaluation is a skill like any other. Some people can do it and some can't.
You're putting words in his mouth. I suggest you go back to that original post and read it again to comprehend where he's going with his theory. Its likely very accurate as well. People who wrote off his hockey sense were generally going off his numbers.

Its great to be able to evaluate whether a guy is a good skater or has a big shot, that doesn't take much knowledge of the game but to get an idea for how a guy thinks the game, you need to watch him away from the puck, where he goes after he passes it etc. etc. If you have no frame of reference for that type of thing, its difficult to assess a player. Generally, having experience playing, officiating and coaching really help with that knowledge base. Its not absolutely essential, the best players aren't necessarily going to be the best evaluators of talent, its just helps.

In the case of Zibanejad, its easier to see which posters around here rely more on numbers, independent scouting agencies and glossy highlights to form opinions rather than the less aesthetically pleasing regular viewings and constant re-assessments of current ability and potential.

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04-07-2013, 06:06 PM
  #947
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Originally Posted by sens2k9 View Post
Tim Murray
Mike Milbury

I guess you're right, obviously the athletic guy "gets it".

Honestly to suggest that people who stated that Zibanejad had "poor hockey sense" are just un-athletic people is just.. ignorant I guess.

Talent evaluation is a skill like any other. Some people can do it and some can't.
Exception to the rule.

Comparing Tim Murray to the average internet poster who isn't inside the game is just silly, Tim Murray's family is inside the game and he's been bred to scout. You guys are focusing on the athletic part of what I said and kind of ignoring the hockey experience side (I hope I said both).

But the people who have a natural knack for it are often gonna be more athletically oriented. And I emphasize natural knack...There are exceptions to the rule. And maybe I'm leaning much too far, who knows. All I said was I know we have a lot of people that study quantitative fields here, we probably have a lot of non-athletes that love hockey...and I'd say in general they probably have a poorer frame of reference to analyze talent from their homes. I'd actually say it'd be hard to argue with that. I'm not talking about the guys in the game....dude, I don't care who you are, if you have an into the NHL and are passionate about scouting, you hang around scouts, you watch 200 games a year for years, and you love it...there's a good chance you're gonna get ****ing good at it.

I knew when I said it it would ruffle feathers, but it wasn't meant to be insulting. Take it easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OD99 View Post
Minister...you don't have a leg to stand on here...to suggest the people that didn't know Zibby would be good to date (and let's agree that while it is exciting right now we still have no idea how he will end up as a player) were somehow at a disadvantage because they weren't/aren't athletic is just ridiculous.
You aren't really understanding what I was saying. And at this point you may just choose not to.

There's a lot that goes into being able to evaluate talent, and watching hockey closely and understanding "scouting" is gonna be first and foremost. But some will have an advantage in understanding scouting and the development process if they understand athletics.

Half the battle in scouting is finding the players who's deficiencies can be worked on but whose talents (namely hockey sense) that cannot be worked on, or not well, are very high.

You will have an advantage in this area if you were an athlete yourself, or better yet maybe an athlete who is educated on athletics, or have experience in the game.

It's quite clear to me that some people do not recognize obvious talent, so I took my best theory. Maybe it is as simple as some people see and some people don't...and I'm talking about a situation where people have equal experience, hypothetically speaking. But there's gotta be a "why do people see it better and others don't"...care to take a stab? Maybe you think it's just a matter of you got it or you don't, I don't think it's all quite that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
You're putting words in his mouth. I suggest you go back to that original post and read it again to comprehend where he's going with his theory. Its likely very accurate as well. People who wrote off his hockey sense were generally going off his numbers.

Its great to be able to evaluate whether a guy is a good skater or has a big shot, that doesn't take much knowledge of the game but to get an idea for how a guy thinks the game, you need to watch him away from the puck, where he goes after he passes it etc. etc. If you have no frame of reference for that type of thing, its difficult to assess a player. Generally, having experience playing, officiating and coaching really help with that knowledge base. Its not absolutely essential, the best players aren't necessarily going to be the best evaluators of talent, its just helps.

In the case of Zibanejad, its easier to see which posters around here rely more on numbers, independent scouting agencies and glossy highlights to form opinions rather than the less aesthetically pleasing regular viewings and constant re-assessments of current ability and potential.
Exactly.

And as I've said, I didn't think his hockey sense was that poor, always shuddered at the comparison to Mike Fisher (what's wrong with a Mike Fisher? Nothing. But Zibanejad should have more to offer). But I think it's looking a lot better than it ever was before. But that may be just a comfort level thing. And there's another key, I've played a lot of sports and I've played in some big games, nothing compared to the NHL or anything but I've always played positions where I "had the game in my hands" so to speak, whether it be pitching, goaltending, quarterbacking, scrum half, and that lends itself well to understanding the psychological aspects of sport. The psychology of sport is so god damn huge in performance and maybe that's the key I should have been focusing on in my argument. So last year when people were knocking Mika's decisions I'm thinking to myself, maybe he's just an 18 year old coming from Sweden and he's not comfortable, and it impedes him from making proper decisions on the ice. We can't know that's what it is, maybe the coach can if Mika says so or something. But it's a good thing to be open to those, and other, possibilities. And in the end, that's a good guess as to what was wrong, and later it was injuries.

And I touch on how you said it's easy to see physical talents, I'd agree. And Mika has them in spades. I always said, try and find me some players (preferably power forwards) with his skill set that are NOT serious NHL goal scorers. Even if you assume he has no hockey sense, with his skill set, he should be a scorer. I thought that was easy to see, I'm sure yourself and some others did as well. Despite no numbers in his mens leagues at young age, you figure if you're patient and wait til he's 23-24, he's gonna use those high end talents to produce. Again, he could probably do it without much hockey sense. Fisher has none, and he scored 25. If that's the case, hockey sense held equal, I'd say Mika could do 30-35.

My point is, I think a lot of people also have trouble seeing those physical talents...or atleast interpreting how likely those talents make it for a player to be a scorer.

Like if Erik Condra had any offensive ability, he'd be a high end player. Man that guy has hockey sense, like high end. But his amazing and quick decision making never turns into much beyond boring ole responsible hockey...which is great. At the end of the day hockey sense is great, but it mostly acts as a multiplier of physical talents. And players can score on physical talents alone, but it's tough to score on hockey sense alone.

I digressed like crazy there.

At the end of the day a good scout doesn't rely on current and past accomplishments, he's able to determine how likely future success is. If you see the talent, you have to stand by it and be patient...9/10 you'll be justified. I once heard Tim Murray say scouting isn't a science, and then he corrected himself and said something like "actually, it is kind of a science".


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04-07-2013, 07:11 PM
  #948
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If you have a broader theory then that's fine - I did look specifically at the point about not being athletic and while I have played hockey for most of my life I found it derogatory towards anyone on this board that didn't.

I don't want to make a big deal out of it but I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand the game could, regardless of actually being on the ice or not.

Of course most NHL orgs are made up of former players (not necessarily NHL but a high level of hockey) in the majority of important positions and I do believe that being around the NHL provides you with a better perspective on the overall make-up of a player but almost all of us on here are going by stats, write-up's and whatever video we can get our hands on of a prospect.

In the end I thought you were painting with a wide brush and it did rub me the wrong way - but it also doesn't matter

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04-07-2013, 08:46 PM
  #949
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Jesus Christ, playing hockey gives you a better understanding of hockey, that's a fact. He's not saying if you don't play hockey you don't know anything.

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04-07-2013, 09:01 PM
  #950
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So impressed by him and Silf again.

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