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Yes am going there: Is Gauthier a bit vindicated?

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Old
04-07-2013, 08:47 PM
  #51
Lshap
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Gauthier can't be assessed only by a list of trades. He won some, he undervalued others. Many of the players are still developing, which means they - and by extension, Gauthier - can't be judged yet.

What CAN be judged is Gauthier's poor sense of team-building. He left a legacy of awful personnel management, in terms of coaches and players. Distrust, imperiousness, lack of consideration, lack of camaraderie, lack of communication -- all symptoms of a GM far removed from the very people with whom he needed to bond. The NHL is very much a boy's club; Gauthier took a weird pride in being the chaperone.

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04-07-2013, 08:47 PM
  #52
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Two recurring problems:

GM obtains players (Moore, Tanguay, Halpern, Hamrlik, Kostitsyns). Forwards fail and/or are allowed to leave. Net result is lost draft picks.

GM acquires D-man, d-man gets huge offers elsewhere and leaves (Streit, Komisarek, Wiznewski, potentially Diaz). You would think lots of players would want to sign with Montreal short term. Net result was insufficient D-men until the current crop reached the pros.

Neither of these problems is particular to Gauthier but he continued them. Look at the Rangers, they sign insane contracts and then succeed in getting assets form them from dumb GMs in Montreal and Columbus. When Gauthier had people to dump he didn't get much (did OK for AK I guess, SK, Gomez, Kaberle not so much).

Bergevin has assets and he's not throwing them around. His pickups look good so far too. Gauthier's moves look OK in total, and with luck they will look much better after the next draft or two.

Hmm, noticed that Palushaj and Gomez are scoring at similar rates this year. And not scoring a lot...

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04-07-2013, 08:48 PM
  #53
Watsatheo
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Not even close IMO, Bergevin wasn't even here one year and he added a much better coaching staff, team philosophy, and added Ryder in terms of personnel to replace an over the hill Cole (which likely would have been in the running for compliance buyout had he been still here) + Prust. Then add the good decision of keeping Gallagher/Galchenyuk with the team - both top 10 in team points.

Gauthier is responsible for getting Eller for Halak. Bourque (injured for half the season) for Cammalleri. Kaberle (benched all season) for Spacek. And helping the team become so bad that they were able to get a top 3 pick and get a shot at Galchenyuk. Everything else can attest to the Habs good amateur|Euro scouting/drafting.

Unless we lower the bar to the point where we commend GMs for NOT throwing away Subban/Paciorretty/Gallagher/etc for nothing like Gainey did with McDonaugh, Gauthier gets as much hand in this team's current success as Gainey would...none.

In before OneSharpMarble saying this success is all Gauthier


Last edited by Watsatheo: 04-07-2013 at 09:12 PM.
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04-07-2013, 08:48 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
honest answer: I defended the man's moves because nearly all of them made sense. His mandate was to be a provider for his coach, it just happened to be that his coach was an archaic dinosaur with no concept of development and his predecessor was an outright imbecile who left him saddled with awful contracts and stunted players. He traded one of my favourite players (Lapierre, yeah yeah he's a troll but he's my troll) and I didn't hate him for it - the coach wasn't going to play him and he had no value. I blame a lot of those moves on Jacques and only Jacques, like losing O'Byrne, SKost and Latendresse and yes, even Pouliot. Jacques was a really highly paid, highly tenured coach who used to even be a GM, he wasn't going to NOT get things going his way until it was painfully clear that the season was a wash and Gainey's frankenstein experiment was an abject failure so he tanked and did it farily: if it works (Kaberle trade, Bourque trade, Cunneyworth) that's great, we'll gear up for next season... if it doesn't work, that's great too we can start fresh next season. He's the reason we got Galchenyuk and a bunch of our good prospects (trading up to get Tinordi for instance) and all the delicious picks we have this year. All in all he was a good manager if it weren't for the speculation I cannot judge objectively... such as:

Bad leadership, bad communication, bad people skills, etc. Apparently he was awful at it and that's what did him in - I have nothing to say about it because there's been only whisper and Dave Stubbs' farts alluding to it but I believe it though, I just think that he was the scapegoat when it was Jacques and Cunneyworths' incompetance and Gainey's awful contracts more than anything. If we base it on hockey moves he's heads and shoulders above most. I'd much rather Gauthier calling the shots than Nieuwendyk or Tambellini or like half the GMs in this league.

Gauthier also had to make one of the biggest moves in recent history, trading playoff hero Halak for an unknown return and he got ZERO credit for it which disappoints me - both the trade and the return were very risky and he made the right move on both accounts. Halak can't keep a starting job and can't keep healthy, he plays well for four to five games and then it's back to square one. You can't build a team with Halak as your undisputed no.1.

Yes he should get credit but his presence was a detriment. Gainey can screw off to hell though.
get out of my head charles!!!

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04-07-2013, 08:55 PM
  #55
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The atmosphere around the team. Changes everything.

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04-07-2013, 08:58 PM
  #56
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I am having deja vu.

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04-07-2013, 09:17 PM
  #57
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He saw where the team was headed with the anchors from Gainey and set the team for a quick turnaround. Like I said before MB will benefit from Gauthiers moves for years, he was left with an excellent core, pile of draft picks and had a chance to bring in all of his own people. Gauthier took the fall and the ignorant rage of the fanbase.

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04-07-2013, 09:19 PM
  #58
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Never, ever.

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04-07-2013, 09:19 PM
  #59
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His hockey decisions were heavily criticized by most fans and he's certainly being vindicated for many of those decisions.

His failure as GM was the culture he created around the team.

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04-07-2013, 09:27 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
St Louis gets: Jaroslav Halak
Montreal gets: Lars Eller, Ian Schultz

Tampa Bay gets: Cedrick Desjardins
Montreal gets: Karri Ramo

Colorado gets: Ryan O’Byrne
Montreal gets: Michael Bournival

New York Islanders get: 2nd-round pick in 2011, Conditional 5th-round pick in 2012
Montreal Canadiens get: James Wisniewski

Columbus gets: Ryan Russell
Montreal gets: Mike Blunden

Phoenix gets: Brock Trotter, 2012 seventh-round draft pick.
Montreal gets: Petteri Nokelainen, Garrett Stafford

Calgary gets : Michael Cammalleri, Karri Ramo, 2012 5th round pick
Montreal gets : Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland, 2013 2nd round pick

Nashville gets : Hal Gill, Conditionnal 2013 5th round pick
Montreal gets : Blake Geoffrion, Robert Slaney, 2012 2nd round pick

Nashville gets : Andrei Kostitsyn
Montreal gets : Conditional 2013 5th round pick, 2013 2nd round pick

MTL : 2012 7th round pick
Columbus : rights to James Wisniewski

MTL : 2011 4th round pick (#107-Olivier Archambault) 2011 4th round pick (#96-Josiah Didier)
WIN : 2011 3rd round pick (#77-Brennan Serville)

Nashville gets: Sergei Kostitsyn and future considerations
Montreal gets: Rights to Dan Ellis, Dustin Boyd and future considerations

Anaheim gets: Maxim Lapierre
Montreal gets: Brett Festerling, 5th-round pick in 2012

Atlanta gets: Ben Maxwell, 4th-round pick in 2011
Montreal gets:Nigel Dawes, Brent Sopel

Anaheim gets: fifth round pick in 2012
Montreal gets (Back): Paul Mara

Atlanta gets : Brett Festerling
Montreal gets : Drew MacIntyre

Anaheim gets: Mathieu Carle
Montreal gets: Mark Mitera

Carolina gets : Jaroslav Spacek
Montreal gets : Tomas Kaberle
The Halak deal was good, I can't work with speculation about it "could have been better" somehow. It was good, and I am happy. Period.

The Ramo trade, we got the bigger upside, in my opinion, as Desjardins was going UFA (and we even signed him back!). We then moved Ramo for Holland, sort of. Good deal.

The Bournival deal is to early to tell. I like Bournival's hustle and potential as a shutdown centreman, but probably would not have done that deal. NHL defencemen have value in trade (whereas goalies amazingly don't except for other goalies or seemingly weaker players. A whole other discussion some day.)

The trade for the Wiz was ok. Coming off an ECF appearance, we couldn't afford to not have a PP specialist, and he was an ok D-man ES too. There are times when a high pick sort of must be used up, and that might have been one of the rare cases.

The Blunden trade was minor, but quite smart.

The Nokelainen trade worked out. Trotter was not going anywhere, and Nokes was/is serviceable.

The Cammalleri trade is ok with me. We moved a player with a high cap hit that only justified that hit for three weeks (though that was a really amazing three weeks). We got a second rounder and we got Patrick Holland, and we got a secondary scorer with more speed and a lower cap hit. Overall, despite Cammy's success on paper this year, I'm happy.

The Gill and Andrei Kostitsyn trades were perfect. Got back two second rounders, one more than we lost getting the Wiz. Geoffrion could have been a decent bonus, not PG's fault he got hurt so bad.

The Sergei Kostitsyn trade was the end result of a series of mistakes with that player.

The Maxim Lapierre deal was brutal, as was letting Tom Pyatt and Dominic Moore go for nothing. This removed our entire excellent third line from the 2010 playoffs.

The deal for Kaberle could have worked out if Markov had not returned, but we don't need both Markov and Kaberle in the lineup every night. The buyout clause will help us repair whatever damage remains. The deal did not really hurt us, thank heavens.

The rest of the deals were not too impactful.

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04-07-2013, 09:27 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
His hockey decisions were heavily criticized by most fans and he's certainly being vindicated for many of those decisions.

His failure as GM was the culture he created around the team.
Name his great decisions?

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04-07-2013, 09:31 PM
  #62
Sorinth
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Not even close IMO, Bergevin wasn't even here one year and he added a much better coaching staff, team philosophy, and added Ryder in terms of personnel to replace an over the hill Cole (which likely would have been in the running for compliance buyout had he been still here) + Prust. Then add the good decision of keeping Gallagher/Galchenyuk with the team - both top 10 in team points.

Gauthier is responsible for getting Eller for Halak. Bourque (injured for half the season) for Cammalleri. Kaberle (benched all season) for Spacek. And helping the team become so bad that they were able to get a top 3 pick and get a shot at Galchenyuk. Everything else can attest to the Habs good amateur|Euro scouting/drafting.

Unless we lower the bar to the point where we commend GMs for NOT throwing away Subban/Paciorretty/Gallagher/etc for nothing like Gainey did with McDonaugh, Gauthier gets as much hand in this team's current success as Gainey would...none.

In before OneSharpMarble saying this success is all Gauthier
Should he get "credit" for not throwing away prospects? No, but how many people here claimed Pacioretty was a bust and wanted him gone. How many other GMs would have traded him after his "I'd rather play in Hamilton" comments? Gauthier deserves some credit for sticking with him, just like he deserves some credit for sticking with Markov and for not letting Plekanec hit UFA.

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04-07-2013, 09:32 PM
  #63
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Even a broken clock is correct twice a day, and Gauthier is as broken a clock as there is.

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04-07-2013, 09:36 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Name his great decisions?
Sticking with Price and getting good return for Halak
Signing Emelin and Diaz and getting them to come over
Signing Cole
Deciding to throw in the towel last season

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04-07-2013, 09:37 PM
  #65
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I don't think we should be giving too much props to PG for the players drafted or the prospects included in trades during his tenure. I suspect most of those decisions/suggestions were made by Timmins.

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04-07-2013, 09:45 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Sticking with Price and getting good return for Halak
Signing Emelin and Diaz and getting them to come over
Signing Cole
Deciding to throw in the towel last season
Please, who in their right mind wouldn't have kept Price over Halak? I guarantee you any other decent GM would have had 10 other dance partners though, unlike PG. Lots of GM's came out and said PG never contacted them, and others wouldn't pick up the phone.

The Cole signing was terrible, it was never a good deal for a team in Montreal's financial position. I mean, they had to dump Cole to fix the team's problems for christ sakes. I know that is a debatable signing, but it was way too much money for a team with so many holes. I never liked it, I know some people did so no point in debating that.

I agree with your last point 100%

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04-07-2013, 09:53 PM
  #67
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The Halak deal was good, I can't work with speculation about it "could have been better" somehow. It was good, and I am happy. Period.

The Ramo trade, we got the bigger upside, in my opinion, as Desjardins was going UFA (and we even signed him back!). We then moved Ramo for Holland, sort of. Good deal.

The Bournival deal is to early to tell. I like Bournival's hustle and potential as a shutdown centreman, but probably would not have done that deal. NHL defencemen have value in trade (whereas goalies amazingly don't except for other goalies or seemingly weaker players. A whole other discussion some day.)

The trade for the Wiz was ok. Coming off an ECF appearance, we couldn't afford to not have a PP specialist, and he was an ok D-man ES too. There are times when a high pick sort of must be used up, and that might have been one of the rare cases.

The Blunden trade was minor, but quite smart.

The Nokelainen trade worked out. Trotter was not going anywhere, and Nokes was/is serviceable.

The Cammalleri trade is ok with me. We moved a player with a high cap hit that only justified that hit for three weeks (though that was a really amazing three weeks). We got a second rounder and we got Patrick Holland, and we got a secondary scorer with more speed and a lower cap hit. Overall, despite Cammy's success on paper this year, I'm happy.

The Gill and Andrei Kostitsyn trades were perfect. Got back two second rounders, one more than we lost getting the Wiz. Geoffrion could have been a decent bonus, not PG's fault he got hurt so bad.

The Sergei Kostitsyn trade was the end result of a series of mistakes with that player.

The Maxim Lapierre deal was brutal, as was letting Tom Pyatt and Dominic Moore go for nothing. This removed our entire excellent third line from the 2010 playoffs.

The deal for Kaberle could have worked out if Markov had not returned, but we don't need both Markov and Kaberle in the lineup every night. The buyout clause will help us repair whatever damage remains. The deal did not really hurt us, thank heavens.

The rest of the deals were not too impactful.

Couldn't have said it better !

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04-07-2013, 09:54 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Sticking with Price and getting good return for Halak
Signing Emelin and Diaz and getting them to come over
Signing Cole
Deciding to throw in the towel last season
How can signing Cole and tanking the season both be good moves at the same time? Those moves work in opposite directions. It looks even worse considering we JUST dumped Cole because he sucks. Thank goodness we were ABLE to.

Gauthier only "threw in the towel" when it was clear that no power on heaven or earth could get this team into the playoffs. He had been acquiring players like Kaberle and Nokelainen for that purpose and he only started dumping guys at the last minute. Luckily the team sucked enough to bottom out completely no matter what Gauthier did. The guy did not know if he was coming or going and honestly I wish he was here right now so I could throw a boot at him.

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04-07-2013, 09:54 PM
  #69
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I think if Gauthier hadnt hired Cunneyworth he would still be Habs GM today

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04-07-2013, 09:58 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Please, who in their right mind wouldn't have kept Price over Halak? I guarantee you any other decent GM would have had 10 other dance partners though, unlike PG. Lots of GM's came out and said PG never contacted them, and others wouldn't pick up the phone.

The Cole signing was terrible, it was never a good deal for a team in Montreal's financial position. I mean, they had to dump Cole to fix the team's problems for christ sakes. I know that is a debatable signing, but it was way too much money for a team with so many holes. I never liked it, I know some people did so no point in debating that.

I agree with your last point 100%
Sticking with Price was very controversial at the time. As for the return goalies hardly ever get you anything good. Look at how much trouble Vancouver is having for Luongo. We got a recent 1st round draft pick (11th overall) who was progressing nicely and a recent 3rd round draft pick. That was a great return.

We didn't trade Cole because we had financial trouble, we could easily afford him next year too, we have nearly 7m in cap space not including the Kaberle buyout and only 1 important piece to sign. It clearly wasn't that bad a deal since we were able to trade him for Ryder and a 3rd.

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04-07-2013, 10:02 PM
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Mr.Gauthier had 0 communication skills.

Fired 3 coaches to replace them with durp.

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04-07-2013, 10:05 PM
  #72
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His failure as GM was the culture he created around the team.
what he said

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04-07-2013, 10:05 PM
  #73
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The Ramo trade, we got the bigger upside, in my opinion, as Desjardins was going UFA (and we even signed him back!). We then moved Ramo for Holland, sort of. Good deal.
How would not put that trade in the not too impactful one? Did he ended up playing here? How's that kind of analysis enough to declare it a win. So Ramo has the biggest upside, yet Desjardins was safer. You could get anybody playing in Russia right now, but if you can't have the certainty that he,s coming over, as great a potential you have, I can,t say you WON that trade. I actually prefer that second Desjardins trade with Tokarski. You actually now have a proven AHL'er that could actually also have a better upside. And then, we have to be careful with the "but he got us Holland"....Nobody in that trade was necessary BUT Cammy and Bourque. Ramo would not have been available, chances are the deal would have been made with other pieces, don't worry.

Quote:
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The trade for the Wiz was ok. Coming off an ECF appearance, we couldn't afford to not have a PP specialist, and he was an ok D-man ES too. There are times when a high pick sort of must be used up, and that might have been one of the rare cases.
Was OK at the very best. But always giving high picks for 1 season or sometimes half of a season is not a wise move.

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The Blunden trade was minor, but quite smart.
Again...how's that not too impactful? Okay so in order to be sure Gauthier wins some trades, we are really going to consider each player and even if the guy we got ended up a NHL callup while the other isn't..Gauthier wins? How many guys like Blunded could we have gotten through waivers? You actually count on your GM to win trades that are actually important so that it changes the face of your franchise. You could put that Halak trade in there. Put the Cammy one too if you want....But geez, we can't talk about Blunden in the same analysis. Totally uneventful. So when Gauthier traded D'Agostini for Palushaj...did Gauthier LOST that one 'cause D'Agostini ended up a 1-year 21-goal scorer? If you use that positive argument for Blunden, can we use it negatively for D'Ago? Or can we now call all of those uneventful? Yet, I will always believe that D'Agostini never got a fair chance, yet, that's more on the coach than on the GM, I know.

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The Nokelainen trade worked out. Trotter was not going anywhere, and Nokes was/is serviceable.
See not too impactful. We picked up a guy way more useful this year called Halpern on waivers.

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The Sergei Kostitsyn trade was the end result of a series of mistakes with that player.
Nope. The organizaiton was on the inside. Not us. I was always a big time defender of Sergei and surely because I didn't know what was going on. But they HAD to know. And they HAD to realize that he wasn't their type of player, and should have realized it before they were able to turn his value to absolute 0. He once had some value. Yet, I will always believe that he was always that type of player we had to get rid of. I do believe he was treated unfairly as most of this board once thought that we were better off with the Kosty brothers than Getzlaf. He had some value. We succesfully turned it into none. The player has his own fault. But that's HIS career. We couldn't care less. We had to do what was best for THE TEAM. And it was traded him while he had his value.

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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The deal for Kaberle could have worked out if Markov had not returned, but we don't need both Markov and Kaberle in the lineup every night. The buyout clause will help us repair whatever damage remains. The deal did not really hurt us, thank heavens.
Makes no sense. A Kaberle good enough if Markov had not returned has to be a Kaberle good enough even with Markov. I mean, with Kaberle, it means no Gorges-Bouillon on your 2nd pairing on D....how can he not be better than that? A good Kaberle, which is some offensive instincts and vet presence, has to be present in an average to good defensive squad. Which is what we have. We couldn't wait to get that Spacek contract out of our books. Made no sense to add the Kaberle one. And the end-result will be another buyout during the summer, hence why Kaberle isn't playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The rest of the deals were not too impactful.
As most of Gauthier's trades and moves. Best moves? Halak, Cammy and the 2nd round picks. That would mean, Eller, Bourque, Holland and 2nd rounders. Somehow, that's portrait as a great GM. Fine. Some will say that he's being unfairly hated. I'm in the camp to think that he's unfairly loved while the reality should be that he was just, like your Wiz trade....okay. Then you add all the coaching saga, the way he was conducting himself, and so on and your okay as to drop to average. Yet, I guess he has the advantage to be compared to Gainey....Who then has the advantage to be compared to Houle. Sorry...but you are not great because you are better than the medicore to bad ones we had before. You are just...better than them.

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04-07-2013, 10:09 PM
  #74
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How can signing Cole and tanking the season both be good moves at the same time? Those moves work in opposite directions. It looks even worse considering we JUST dumped Cole because he sucks. Thank goodness we were ABLE to.

Gauthier only "threw in the towel" when it was clear that no power on heaven or earth could get this team into the playoffs. He had been acquiring players like Kaberle and Nokelainen for that purpose and he only started dumping guys at the last minute. Luckily the team sucked enough to bottom out completely no matter what Gauthier did. The guy did not know if he was coming or going and honestly I wish he was here right now so I could throw a boot at him.
The year before we took the SC champs to 7 games including 3 lost in OT, so he was fully justified in adding size and scoring to try and push us over the hump. Cole played great for us so yes it was a good move. You'll always find a taker for a guy coming off a 35 goal season who has size and speed and is considered a leader.

He tried to salvage the season early on but he threw in the towel much earlier than you seem to think. We had over half a season to play when he fired Martin, and he started dumping players shortly after. We weren't that far out at the time and could still have made a push.

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04-07-2013, 10:15 PM
  #75
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Why the hell does this even need to be brought up?

The man was an absolute failure. His first act of failure was hiring Jacques Martin and it went downhill very quickly after that.

One of the worst GMs in history.

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