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Yes am going there: Is Gauthier a bit vindicated?

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Old
04-07-2013, 10:16 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Why the hell does this even need to be brought up?

The man was an absolute failure. His first act of failure was hiring Jacques Martin and it went downhill very quickly after that.

One of the worst GMs in history.
You mean when they made it to the ECF and then took the SC winner to a 7 game ot ?

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04-07-2013, 10:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As most of Gauthier's trades and moves. Best moves? Halak, Cammy and the 2nd round picks. That would mean, Eller, Bourque, Holland and 2nd rounders. Somehow, that's portrait as a great GM. Fine. Some will say that he's being unfairly hated. I'm in the camp to think that he's unfairly loved while the reality should be that he was just, like your Wiz trade....okay. Then you add all the coaching saga, the way he was conducting himself, and so on and your okay as to drop to average. Yet, I guess he has the advantage to be compared to Gainey....Who then has the advantage to be compared to Houle. Sorry...but you are not great because you are better than the medicore to bad ones we had before. You are just...better than them.
If all we've had is a series of mediocre to bad GMs for the past 10+ years how come all Bergevin has to do is add a few role players and improve the atmosphere surrounding the team to turn us into a contender? Clearly there must have been something being done right before hand.

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04-07-2013, 10:17 PM
  #78
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Did someone just call Matt D'Agostini a 20-goal scorer?

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04-07-2013, 10:19 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
He saw where the team was headed with the anchors from Gainey and set the team for a quick turnaround. Like I said before MB will benefit from Gauthiers moves for years, he was left with an excellent core, pile of draft picks and had a chance to bring in all of his own people. Gauthier took the fall and the ignorant rage of the fanbase.
Complete garbage. Was Gauthier really forced to have Enqvist center the 4th line while letting Halpern walk? Was he really forced to trade Spacek for Kaberle? How about signing Chirs Campoli? Was he forced to trade decent picks for guys who never played in the NHL a year later like Sopel and Mara? Was he forced into giving Cole a laughable contract? He was a terrible GM and his egomaniacal problem of controlling everything and being so bloody secretive caused the team to spiral downwards.

Gainey wasn't great, but at least the respect of the organization was in tact during his tenure. Gauthier completely changed that in such a short period.

Bergevin has shown us what a smart GM is capable of. That Cole contract that was terrible was traded away quickly. He has been completely open with the media and fans and so has the organization. He has restored the terrible PR hit that Gauthier created. Players along with staff are no longer afraid to talk.

As far as the core and the draftpicks. He got Eller and who else? He traded away picks for Mara, Sopel, Moore, Wiz, Noikelinen, etc...so what on earth are you talking about? Trading away Gill, AK and Cam for picks is not something I'd call "pile of draft picks"

If anything. Gainey and Timmins left MB with an excellent core and picks.

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04-07-2013, 10:20 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Why the hell does this even need to be brought up?

The man was an absolute failure. His first act of failure was hiring Jacques Martin and it went downhill very quickly after that.

One of the worst GMs in history.
Gauthier didn't hire Martin

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04-07-2013, 10:21 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If all we've had is a series of mediocre to bad GMs for the past 10+ years how come all Bergevin has to do is add a few role players and improve the atmosphere surrounding the team to turn us into a contender? Clearly there must have been something being done right before hand.
'Cause the PICKS are what build this team. A certain Trevor Timmins which no GM has any say on his picks. The only guy we could thank for Timmins is André Savard for having brought him in. The other ones were "smart" enough to let him do the work.

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Did someone just call Matt D'Agostini a 20-goal scorer?
Nope. I called him a "1-year 20 goal scorer" Check again. You'd also notice that my point was about "not too impactful" trades. If D'Agostini would have really become a 20-goal scorer, I would not have put him in that category...would have been put in the awful trades one....

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04-07-2013, 10:21 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Please, who in their right mind wouldn't have kept Price over Halak? I guarantee you any other decent GM would have had 10 other dance partners though, unlike PG. Lots of GM's came out and said PG never contacted them, and others wouldn't pick up the phone.

The Cole signing was terrible, it was never a good deal for a team in Montreal's financial position. I mean, they had to dump Cole to fix the team's problems for christ sakes. I know that is a debatable signing, but it was way too much money for a team with so many holes. I never liked it, I know some people did so no point in debating that.

I agree with your last point 100%
This. Was keeping Price over Halak really that difficult of a decision? Anyone with a mind picked Price.

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04-07-2013, 10:24 PM
  #83
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You mean when they made it to the ECF and then took the SC winner to a 7 game ot ?
Which means what exactly?

Nothing.

They do not award a Cup for finishing second in the Eastern Conference and missing out on the Stanley Cup playoffs.

How did Gauthier/Martin do after that? The "runner up in the East dynasty" crumbled quickly.

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04-07-2013, 10:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
This. Was keeping Price over Halak really that difficult of a decision? Anyone with a mind picked Price.
I,m not a Gauthier lover...FAR FROM IT. But it still took a gutsy decision to get the fan favorite out of here. And then think that a young kid who still had to work on his overall game, mental and physical, would have been able to do it here in Montreal. That's the reason why I thought trading Price HAD to be an option. Not for any price though. The return would have HAD to be awesome. But it was never analysed.

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04-07-2013, 10:27 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If all we've had is a series of mediocre to bad GMs for the past 10+ years how come all Bergevin has to do is add a few role players and improve the atmosphere surrounding the team to turn us into a contender? Clearly there must have been something being done right before hand.
Errr... Bergevin did a lot more than that.

Campoli, Enqvist, Noikes, Gomez, Staubitz, Darche, Geffrion, Kaberle/Spacek are nowhere near this team. He also got rid of a terrible contract in Cole who doesn't appear to be the great teammate that we were all led to believe for a natural goal scorer in Ryder. Prust has been nothing short of amazing. Armstrong has been a solid addition as well. The team didn't need a complete turnover. There were far too many low level players getting playing time last year. Bergevin fixed that....along with hiring Therrien (who I thought was a bad hire, but I'm eating crow) and a coaching staff that know what the hell they're doing.

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04-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Gauthier didn't hire Martin
Are you that naive?

Gainey was heading out the door (everyone knew that) and the petite Gauthier was going to take over (everyone knew that).

Gauthier had EVERYTHING to do with bringing Martin to Montreal.

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04-07-2013, 10:31 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I,m not a Gauthier lover...FAR FROM IT. But it still took a gutsy decision to get the fan favorite out of here. And then think that a young kid who still had to work on his overall game, mental and physical, would have been able to do it here in Montreal. That's the reason why I thought trading Price HAD to be an option. Not for any price though. The return would have HAD to be awesome. But it was never analysed.
You're right, but all I could think of while watching those series was...Halak is not the type of goalie that can log big minutes. He tended to break down and was pushed around in his crease a lot. I thought keeping Price was a no brainer as did many other people. Better pedigree, bigger, durable, won at every level. Although he had a bad season, why trade a guy who's supposed to be the cornerstone of your team for a goalie who got red hot for 2 series in the playoffs? I was a big Halak fan too, btw.

That said, I have no problem with giving Gauthier props for keeping Price...

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04-07-2013, 10:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Complete garbage. Was Gauthier really forced to have Enqvist center the 4th line while letting Halpern walk? Was he really forced to trade Spacek for Kaberle? How about signing Chirs Campoli? Was he forced to trade decent picks for guys who never played in the NHL a year later like Sopel and Mara? Was he forced into giving Cole a laughable contract? He was a terrible GM and his egomaniacal problem of controlling everything and being so bloody secretive caused the team to spiral downwards.

Gainey wasn't great, but at least the respect of the organization was in tact during his tenure. Gauthier completely changed that in such a short period.

Bergevin has shown us what a smart GM is capable of. That Cole contract that was terrible was traded away quickly. He has been completely open with the media and fans and so has the organization. He has restored the terrible PR hit that Gauthier created. Players along with staff are no longer afraid to talk.

As far as the core and the draftpicks. He got Eller and who else? He traded away picks for Mara, Sopel, Moore, Wiz, Noikelinen, etc...so what on earth are you talking about? Trading away Gill, AK and Cam for picks is not something I'd call "pile of draft picks"

If anything. Gainey and Timmins left MB with an excellent core and picks.
How did signing Chris Campoli hurt us? It cost us nothing and provided basically nothing. Who cares? Same goes for Kaberle, he took a risk and it didn't work out but what has it really cost us?

He traded a 4th and a 5th round pick for Mara & Sopel, since when are those decent picks? The half a season we got from them probably more NHL games then we would have gotten from whoever we would've drafted.

Cole more than lived up to his contract in the first year, and then we traded him for our current leading scorer and a pick. I'm not sure why that's laughable.

For all the picks he traded away for rentals, he reacquired those picks last year so it's basically a wash.

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04-07-2013, 10:34 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
You're right, but all I could think of while watching those series was...Halak is not the type of goalie that can log big minutes. He tended to break down and was pushed around in his crease a lot. I thought keeping Price was a no brainer as did many other people. Better pedigree, bigger, durable, won at every level. Although he had a bad season, why trade a guy who's supposed to be the cornerstone of your team for a goalie who got red hot for 2 series in the playoffs? I was a big Halak fan too, btw.

That said, I have no problem with giving Gauthier props for keeping Price...
Gauthier surely made the right pick. And even if Price struggles, I will NEVER put that on Gauthier. But totally on Gainey for not taking his time with this kid. To have send everybody around him away, to have not even permit him to learn during 1 full season in the AHL with the ups and downs of a season, to wonder then why the hell would people's expectations would be so high is just a sad sad decision.

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04-07-2013, 10:38 PM
  #90
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To understand the GIGANTIC difference between Bergevin's approach to managing the Montreal Canadiens and Gauthier's approach, all you have to do is look at the support staff (player development) and increased scouting staff that Bergevin hired when he started.

Gauthier was a petite egotist who had no clue how to run an effective hockey operation to develop players from the time they are drafted until they make their NHL debut.

Gauthier was decades behind other NHL organizations.

But he did decide to keep Price so he is a genius.

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04-07-2013, 10:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
'Cause the PICKS are what build this team. A certain Trevor Timmins which no GM has any say on his picks. The only guy we could thank for Timmins is André Savard for having brought him in. The other ones were "smart" enough to let him do the work.
Timmins drafted 8 players (I'll include Desharnais) that are regulars with the team. So most of the team is built from trades/UFAs. Only 2 of our top 5 scorers are Timmins picks.

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04-07-2013, 10:42 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Gauthier surely made the right pick. And even if Price struggles, I will NEVER put that on Gauthier. But totally on Gainey for not taking his time with this kid. To have send everybody around him away, to have not even permit him to learn during 1 full season in the AHL with the ups and downs of a season, to wonder then why the hell would people's expectations would be so high is just a sad sad decision.
Why is it often the same people that praise the current management for giving Gallagher and Galchenyuk a chance in the NHL as rookies, but complain that Carey Price was given the same treatment?

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04-07-2013, 10:42 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
How did signing Chris Campoli hurt us? It cost us nothing and provided basically nothing. Who cares? Same goes for Kaberle, he took a risk and it didn't work out but what has it really cost us?

He traded a 4th and a 5th round pick for Mara & Sopel, since when are those decent picks? The half a season we got from them probably more NHL games then we would have gotten from whoever we would've drafted.

Cole more than lived up to his contract in the first year, and then we traded him for our current leading scorer and a pick. I'm not sure why that's laughable.

For all the picks he traded away for rentals, he reacquired those picks last year so it's basically a wash.
Campoli was useless as is Kaberle. He traded for players like that who did not help the Canadiens improve as a team. An eternal spin cycle of ineptitude. But no big deal, because as we were losing on the ice, it really didnt cost the organization anything. Right?

Gauthier was trading **** to get more ****. And his record of achievement is ****.

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04-07-2013, 10:43 PM
  #94
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Does anybody else think maybe, just maybe Gauthier did a not so bad job building the current Habs. I know, I know last place last year but guess what aside from Prust, Ryder and Therrien what else did Bergevins changed and added? He bought out Gomez and likely Kaberle but that was pretty much Geoff Molson keeping his "No BS allowed anymore!" promess to the fans.

Galchenyuk don't really count you had to be really stupid to pass on this guy. Gallagher a fifth round pick is a product of the old regime. Hell Bourque even bounced back making the Cammalleri trade a serious steal. Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland and Calgary 2013 second round draft pick came our way in that trade.
Sure Gauthier is a serious psycho who got no people skill but on the ice right now is pretty much his team.
IMO those 3 things are probably some of the biggest factors for the habs being so good this year. A great coach, an awesome energy player who can drop his gloves no matter who's in front of him and the recent addition of Ryder has been great for us so far and it got rid of Cole and his ugly contract and his floating around the ice. Bergevin is great...with Gauthier and probably Cunneyworth we'd still be icing Gomez on our 3rd line and Kaberle on our 2nd pairing.

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04-07-2013, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
How did signing Chris Campoli hurt us? It cost us nothing and provided basically nothing. Who cares? Same goes for Kaberle, he took a risk and it didn't work out but what has it really cost us?
With this type of reasoning, it's virtually impossible to be a bad GM. The Campoli trade hurt us because he was a terrible dman and was a plan B for Gauthier misjudging Markov's injury. He then had to get Kaberle which was another terrible move. The guy can't even play now and has to get bought out. You don't understand how any of that hurts a team?

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He traded a 4th and a 5th round pick for Mara & Sopel, since when are those decent picks? The half a season we got from them probably more NHL games then we would have gotten from whoever we would've drafted.
Mara played less than 10 games. Sopel was weak. 4th and 5th round picks are still valuable picks.

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Cole more than lived up to his contract in the first year, and then we traded him for our current leading scorer and a pick. I'm not sure why that's laughable.
His contract was terrible. The term was too long and Cole has always been an up and down player. Dallas got fleeced.

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For all the picks he traded away for rentals, he reacquired those picks last year so it's basically a wash.
He was forced to re-acquire them because he let those "rentals" walk and failed to replace them....thus icing a non-playoff team.

Do you see how all of these "that didn't hurt us" moves that you absolve Gauthier of actually ended up hurting us in the grand scheme of things?

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04-07-2013, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
To understand the GIGANTIC difference between Bergevin's approach to managing the Montreal Canadiens and Gauthier's approach, all you have to do is look at the support staff (player development) and increased scouting staff that Bergevin hired when he started.

Gauthier was a petite egotist who had no clue how to run an effective hockey operation to develop players from the time they are drafted until they make their NHL debut.

Gauthier was decades behind other NHL organizations.

But he did decide to keep Price so he is a genius.
Perhaps his legendary bossiness helped in one case:

"Listen up Alexei, there is a new sheriff in town now, no more nice-guy player-friendly Bob Gainey to push around. I hereby command you to stop this KHL nonsense and come over this season. You got that? Good, see you at camp!"

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04-07-2013, 10:51 PM
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Nope. I called him a "1-year 20 goal scorer" Check again. You'd also notice that my point was about "not too impactful" trades. If D'Agostini would have really become a 20-goal scorer, I would not have put him in that category...would have been put in the awful trades one....
I was referring to this, actually:


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Originally Posted by yoyo999 View Post
I think one of the things I think people disliked the most about Gauthier was the fact that he had to have so much control over everything.
-He had very little staff,
-The players were not made very accessible to the public,
-The Randy Cunneyworth debacle
-Living in Vermont while trying to sell Montreal to prospective players,
-Charging Cammalleri $500 for his own jersey

His trades are starting to work out I suppose but you have admit they were made hastily and didn't always get full value.

-Halak could have fetched more than Lars Eller and Ian Schultz, who is in the ECHL.
-Cammalleri should not have been traded. Imagine him in our line-up now.
-He traded Maxime Lapierre to Anaheim for bug-all, who then flipped him for more at the deadline.
-Spacek for Kaberle.......
-Sergei Kostitsyn a 20-goal scorer for a guy that played half a season.
-Matt D'agostitni a 20-goal scorer for Aaron Palushaj.

Come on people. He did not do a good job.

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04-07-2013, 10:56 PM
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Timmins drafted 8 players (I'll include Desharnais) that are regulars with the team. So most of the team is built from trades/UFAs. Only 2 of our top 5 scorers are Timmins picks.
Top players of the Habs? Pacioretty, Subban, Price. Add Plekanec...a Savard pick. Savard who started the whole reconstruction but wasn't there long enough to have a big imprint. Andrei Markov? A HOULE PICK!!!! What a great GM he is finally... And then add Ryder...another Houle pick. GM of the century. The picks build the team 'cause the impact players are the picks.

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Why is it often the same people that praise the current management for giving Gallagher and Galchenyuk a chance in the NHL as rookies, but complain that Carey Price was given the same treatment?
'Cause goalies are a total different ballgame. Add the pressure that it is to play in this market and you have your answer.

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04-07-2013, 10:58 PM
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I was referring to this, actually:
Okay.... Well I let you boys discuss that then...

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04-07-2013, 10:59 PM
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Does anybody else think maybe, just maybe Gauthier did a not so bad job building the current Habs. I know, I know last place last year but guess what aside from Prust, Ryder and Therrien what else did Bergevins changed and added? He bought out Gomez and likely Kaberle but that was pretty much Geoff Molson keeping his "No BS allowed anymore!" promess to the fans.
Gauthier has very little to do with this year's team. Emelin sort of, but who else? Bourque? He hasn't played in forever and obviously is not an important part of the team. Eller for sure, but who else Budaj?

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