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Post-consolidation VsX Benchmarks

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Old
03-22-2013, 02:47 PM
  #76
BubbaBoot
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Hey Sturm, I accidently erased that message you gave me a few weeks back about this comparison tool. At the risk of sounding like the dolt that I probably am, is there any way you or BBS come up with some kind of key that explains the formulas and/or significance of it all?

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Old
03-23-2013, 03:46 PM
  #77
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I honestly think you just have to asterisk it. No amount of fudging can account for the crappy level of competition the scores were racked up against. You go from giving Smith a 94 to an 88 in 1944 and 86 to a 74 in 1945. I agree its an improvement, but the bottom line is those scores don't deserve to be treated the same way as other scores in the 70s or 80s earned in a non-depleted league with much different competition at the top and throughout the league.

I think no matter what you do, you're still going to have Mosienko too high and undrafteds that look much better than they were.
I think it's worth exploring since Clint Smith is one of the few players who played all of 1943 - 1946.

Here are his VsX scores

1938: 84
1939: 93
1940: 56
1941: 57
1942: 63
1943: 50
1944: 94 (88 vs1)
1945: 86 (68 vs1)
1946: 96
1947: 41

Elmer Lach is another one who played the whole time frame in question.

1941: 48
1942: n/a
1943: 88
1944: 94 (88 vs 1)
1945: 127 (100 vs 1)
1946: 90
1947: 43 (injured)
1948: 102
1949: 54 (injured)
1950: 70
1951: 68
1952: 94
1953: 67
1954: 41 (inured

It's a small sample of 2, but it seems like comparing to vs1 in 1944 and 1945 makes those two years fit more in line with the rest of the relatively weak but not nearly as awful 1940s.

Any other star or semi-star players you can think of who played all of 1943-1946?

Here's Toe Blake:

1937: 49
1938: 75
1939: 107
1940: 84
1941: 73
1942: 83
1943: 89
1944: 77 (72 vs1)
1945: 92 (84 vs 1)
1946: 96
1947: 79
1948: 40 (missed a lot of games)

Toe Blake's 1944 and 1945 actually look more in line with the seasons surrounding them if you stick with Sturm's VsX and don't do Vs1, but my guess is that's largely (or completely) random variation.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-23-2013 at 11:42 PM.
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Old
03-23-2013, 04:02 PM
  #78
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Toe Blake is one...and the Bentleys.

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Old
03-23-2013, 11:34 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Toe Blake is one...and the Bentleys.
I checked the Bentleys, but Max missed both 1944 and 1945, and Doug missed 1945 with some kind of immigration problem that probably was related to the war.


Don't know how I could remember Elmer Lach and forget about Toe Blake though. I'll add Toe Blake to the post above.

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Old
03-24-2013, 09:40 PM
  #80
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I spent a bit of time setting up a spreadsheet that will allow me to easily calculate a player's "Vs. X" score based on Sturm's benchmarks. The number of seasons included and the relative weighting of each can be adjusted with a few keystrokes. Is there any interest in me posting the results or should I wait until the draft is over?

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Old
03-25-2013, 04:26 AM
  #81
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I'd like to see the results using the following:

- 7 season benchmark

- value weighting: 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16

- minimum value 50

------------------------------------------------------

I think this is likely to give us the best basis for comparing relative scoring across all eras. Then maybe one for post-expansion players only:

- 10 season benchmark

- 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13

- minimum value 50

------------------------------------------------------

I doubt anybody's going to mind you posting the results now.

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Old
03-25-2013, 04:49 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Hey Sturm, I accidently erased that message you gave me a few weeks back about this comparison tool. At the risk of sounding like the dolt that I probably am, is there any way you or BBS come up with some kind of key that explains the formulas and/or significance of it all?
I'm sorry I didn't answer your question more promptly. Would you still like a clarification beyond what's in the OP?

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Old
03-25-2013, 10:12 AM
  #83
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I'll do more, definitely for the modern era but right now I'm going stir crazy and want to go for a swim.

Given the formula that I've hopefully interpreted correctly, (#3/#2....with also the #1/#2 whenever it appears. A score of 100 is a 2nd place finish). I believe I was told that a score of 80 was very good(?) The earlier eras seem skewed wildly, especially the pre-WW2 era.

This is what I've compiled so far for RWERS:


• VsX • Goals (for all-time RWers) • 7 yr player peak vs 7 yr peers playing span
(UPDATED 3/29/13)

NAMEVsX MEAN AVERAGE
Rocket Richard • 1 91 / 179 / 142 / 150 / 112 / 95 / 123 = 892 (MEAN = 127)
Gordie Howe • 1 100 / 102 / 152 / 163 / 100 / 100 / 131 = 848 (MEAN = 121)
Brett Hull 89 / 131 / 168 / 163 / 90 / 95 / 91 = 827 (MEAN = 118)
Rocket Richard • 2 100 / 97 / 93 / 112 / 131 / 131 / 103 = 767 (MEAN = 110)
Jaromir Jagr 100 / 104 / 98 / 78 / 100 / 96 / 100 / 77 / 78 / 82 / 100 / 70 = 764 (7 MEAN = 109) / 1171 (12 yr MEAN = 98)
Guy Lafleur 118 / 100 / 122 / 113 / 100 / 98 / [50 / 50 / 45 / 58] = 651 (6 yr MEAN = 109)
Gordie Howe • 2 133 / 110 / 97 / 97 / 79 / 118 / 109 = 743 (MEAN = 106)
Mike Bossy 100 / 133 / 100 / 124 / 116 / 100 / 98 / 100 / 100 / 70 = 1041 (10 yr MEAN = 104)
   
Gordie Howe • 3 100 / 107 / 100 / 89 / 111 / 100 / 89 = 696 (MEAN = 99)
Andy Bathgate 83 / 100 / 121 / 91 / 100 / 100 / 100 = 695 (MEAN = 99)
Jari Kurri 75 / 100 / 122 / 112 / 100 / 86 / 91 = 686 (MEAN = 98)
Boom-Boom Geoffrion • 2 68 / 104 / 172 / 82 / 66 / 84 = 576 (6 yr MEAN = 96)
Teemu Selanne • 1 127 / 44 / 69 / 100 / 106 / 102 / 109 = 657 (MEAN = 94)
Jarome Iginla • 2 81 / 116 / 97 / 82 / 100 / 89 = 565 (6 yr MEAN = 94)
Pavel Bure 81 / 100 / 105 / 65 / INJ / 49 / 100 / INJ / 132 / 114 / 83 = 829 (9 yr MEAN = 92)
Yvan Cournoyer 89 / 80 / 98 / 77 / 100 / 109 / 93 / 80 = 726 (8 yr MEAN = 91)
Boom-Boom Geoffrion • 1 97 / 73 / 88 / 131 / 100 / 59 / 90 = 638 (MEAN = 91)
Kenny Wharram 57 / 150 / 89 / 90 / 111 / 77 / 69 = 633 (MEAN = 90)
   
Peter Bondra 106 / 95 / 97 / 102 / 71 / 49 / 76 / 95 = 687 (8 yr MEAN = 86)
Cam Neely 68 / 84 / 76 / 100* / 100* / INJ / INJ / 88 / 84= 600 (MEAN = 86)
Mike Gartner • 2 76 / 96 / 68 / 82 / 96 / 94 / 75 = 587 (MEAN = 84)
Ken Hodge 71 / 102 / 71 / 116 / 38 / 88 / 100 = 586 (MEAN = 84)
Rod Gilbert 92 / 93 / INJ / 100 / 83 / 64 / 52 / 81 / 100 = 665 ( 8 yr MEAN = 83)
Tim Kerr 39 / INJ / 104 / 93 / 95 / 107 / INJ / 98 / 44 = 580 (MEAN = 83)
Marian Hossa 67 / 62 / 76 / 98 / 95 / 72 / 90 / 68 / 111 = 739 (9 yr MEAN = 82)
Bill Mosienko 91 / 100 / 95 / 83 / 64 / 83 / 51 / 68 / 100 = 735 (9 yr MEAN = 82)
Jarome Iginla • 1 64 / 67 / 60 / 127 / 78 / 108 / 65 = 572 (MEAN = 82)
Dany Heatley 63 / 90 / INJ / 93 / LW / 95 / LW / 100 / 61 / 65 = 567 (MEAN = 81)
   
Lanny McDonald 66 / 100 / 89 / 83 / 79 / 64 / 73 / 110 / 64 = 718 (9 yr MEAN = 80)
Andy Hebenton 83 / 66 / 70 / 100 / 68 / 90 / 64 = 561 (MEAN = 80)
Alexander Mogilny 59 / 93 / 127 / 56 / 59 / 100 / 66 = 560 (MEAN = 80)
Glenn Anderson 70 / 80 / 104 / 72 / 89 / 66 / 76 = 557 (MEAN = 80)
   
Bill Goldsworthy 103 / 92 / 72 / 63 / 96 / 82 / 43 = 551 (MEAN = 79)
Rick Middleton 73 / 79 / 81 / 94 / 82 / 90 / 52 = 551 (MEAN = 79)
Joe Mullen 79 / 69 / 72 / 89 / 80 / 104 / 66 / INJ / 98 / 55 / 67 = 779 (10 yr MEAN = 78)
Marian Gaborik 73 / 67 / 47 / 79 / 69 / 98 / INJ / 108 / 51 / 111 = 703 (9 yr MEAN = 78)
Reggie Leach 100 / 109 / 70 / 45 / 65 / 98 / 62 = 549 (MEAN = 78)
Theo Fleury 100 / 79 / 57 / 70 / 91 / 84 / 62 / 60 / 91 = 694 (9 yr MEAN = 77)
Jean Pronovost 71 / 51 / 83 / 96 / 93 / 72 / 76 = 542 (MEAN = 77)
Rick Vaive 98 / 85 / 96 / 60 / 54 / 59 / 86 = 538 (MEAN = 77)
Ziggy Palffy 78 / 100 / 88 / 50 / 62 / 73 / 78 / 82 = 611 (8 yr MEAN = 76)
Owen Nolan • 1 98 / 60 / INJ / 94 / 64 / 66 = 382 (5 yr MEAN = 76)
Marty St. Louis 73 / 100 / 57 / 90 / 59 / 86 / 74 / 72 / 68 = 679 (9 yr MEAN = 75)
Dino Ciccarelli • 1 100 / 62 / 73 / 26 / 72 / 96 / 82 = 510 (MEAN = 73)
Stephane Richer 100 / 52 / 93 / 61 / 69 / 63 / 63 / 72 = 573 (8 yr MEAN = 72)
Mike Gartner • 1 71 / 88 / 64 / 63 / 77 / 86 / 57 = 506 (MEAN = 72)
John McKenzie 70 / 61 / 80 / 67 / 88 / 84 / 52 = 502 (MEAN = 72)
Teemu Selanne • 2 75 / 64 / 71 / 62 / 43 / 74 / 100 / INJ / 77 / 69 / 72 / 70 = 777 (11 yr MEAN = 71)
Steve Larmer 72 / 67 / 79 / 51 / 53 / 82 / 92 / 56 / 86 = 638 (9 yr MEAN = 71)
Bobby Rousseau 75 / 54 / 96 / 44 / 104 / 68 / 54 / 69 / 73 = 636 (9 yr MEAN = 71)
Mark Recchi • 1 55 / 78 / 100 / 88 / 70 / 52 / 51 / 72 / 71 = 637 (9 yr MEAN = 71)
Jim Pappin 75 / 37 / 69 / 80 / 60 / 64 / 95 / 67 / 82 = 629 (9 yr MEAN = 70)
Ray Sheppard 76 / 45 / INJ / 47 / 86 / 53 / 91 / 94 = 492 (MEAN = 70)
   
Bill Guerin 62 / 40 / 68 / 56 / 77 / 100 / 56 / 90 = 547 (8 yr MEAN = 69)
Danny Gare 69 / 89 / INJ / 74 / 52 / 110 / 84 / 37 = 485 (MEAN = 69)
Ron Ellis 85 / 66 / 79 / 80 / 58 / 100 / 65 = 475 (MEAN = 68)
Tony Tanti 87 / 67 / 64 / 76 / 80 / 50 / 51 = 475 (MEAN = 68)
Claude Provost 63 / 49 / 61 / 38 / 118 / 57 / 60 / 100 / 66 = 602 (9 yr MEAN = 67)
Paul MacLean 66 / 53 / 77 / 71 / 44 / 60 / 80 / 87 = 538 (8 yr MEAN = 67)
Dino Ciccarelli • 2 94 / 75 / 42 / 89 / 68 / 49 / 40 / 75 = 532 (8 yr MEAN = 67)
Ed Litzenberger 79 / 35 / 97 / CTR / 100 / 42 / 35 / 64 = 472 (MEAN = 67)
Bob Nevin 72 / 54 / 34 / 46 / 59 / 100 / 71 / 80 = 516 (8 yr MEAN = 65)
Rick Kehoe 79 / 38 / 73 / 52 / 65 / 55 / 52 / 60 / 100 = 574 (9 yr MEAN = 64)
Pat Verbeek 92 / 54 / LW / LW / 52 / 65 / 65 / 75 / 36 / 69 = 508 (8 yr MEAN = 64)
Dave Taylor 83 / 73 / 86 / 72 / 35 / 39 / 71 = 450 (MEAN = 64)
Rick Tocchet 62 / 93 / 67 / 78 / 64 / 80 / 25 / 56 / 53 = 568 (9 yr MEAN = 63)
Rene Robert 93 / 44 / 89 / 63 / 72 / 47 / 42 / 56 = 506 (8 yr MEAN = 63)
Mark Recchi • 2 65 / 52 / 55 / 44 / 70 / 58 / 50 = 444 (MEAN = 63)
Owen Nolan • 2 100 / 46 / 56 / 64 / 51 = 317 (5 yr MEAN = 63)
Tomas Sandstrom 50 / 41 / 76 / 56 / 66 / 58 / 88 = 435 (MEAN = 62)
Hakan Loob 58 / 64 / 51 / 34 / 100 / 56 = 363 (6 yr MEAN = 61)
Brian Bellows 58 / 79 / 45 / 51 / 48 / LW / LW / LW / LW / LW / 67 / 58 = 406 (MEAN = 58)
Jerry Toppazzini 46 / 83 / 64 / 42 / 52 / 68 / 49 = 404 (MEAN = 58)
   
   
   
Babe Dye 219 / 100 / 108 / 178 / 211 / 100 / 100 = 1026 (MEAN = 147)
Charlie Conacher 69 / 103 / 148 / 67 / 200 / 144 / 128 = 859 (MEAN = 123)
Gord Drillon 80 / 124 / 95 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 = 699 (MEAN = 100)
   
Cecil Dillon 100 / 100 / 81 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 = 681 (MEAN = 97)
Bill Cook 132 / 100 / 86 / 100 / 100 / 148 / 133 / 81 / 84 = 864 (9 yr MEAN = 96)
Bryan Hextall Sr 83 / 105 / 114 / 113 / 104 / 96 / 60 / 67 = 742 (8 yr MEAN = 93)
   
Punch Broadbent 95 / INJ / 103 / 58 / 100 / 78 / 67 = 501 (6 yr MEAN = 84)
Dit Clapper 141 / 73 / 74 / 67 / 63 / 84 / 67 / 85 = 654 (8 yr MEAN = 82)
Lorne Carr • 2 57 / 70 / 96 / 103 / 75 = 401 (5 yr MEAN = 80)
   
Bobby Bauer 95 / 70 / 81 / 74 / 65 / MIL / MIL / 58 / 100 = 543 (MEAN = 78)
Larry Aurie 48 / 52 / 57 / 100 / 68 / 89 / 115 = 529 (MEAN = 76)
Lorne Carr • 1 68 / 44 / 80 / 76 / 100 = 368 (5 yr MEAN = 74)
   
Ace Bailey 60 / 50 / 122 / 76 / 77 / 35 / 48 = 468 (MEAN = 67)
Harry Oliver 72 / 72 / 94 / 55 / 64 / 57 / 52 = 466 (MEAN = 67)
Joe Carveth 64 / 66 / 93 / 90 / 70 / 36 / 71 = 460 (MEAN = 66)
Jimmy Ward 78 / 35 / 61 / 83 / 76 / 88 / 36 / 67 / 70 = 584 (9 yr MEAN = 65)
   
George Armstrong 47 / 52 / 35 / 55 / 55 / 57 / 61 / 81 / CTR / CTR / 80 / 56 / 55 = 632 (MEAN = 58)
   


Last edited by BubbaBoot: 03-31-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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Old
03-31-2013, 09:34 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I'd like to see the results using the following:

- 7 season benchmark

- value weighting: 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16

- minimum value 50
See results (1926-2013):

Rank Player Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 155.1
2 Gordie Howe 126
3 Phil Esposito 123.4
4 Mario Lemieux 120.4
5 Jaromir Jagr 114.6
6 Bobby Orr 109.3
7 Stan Mikita 108.1
8 Bobby Hull 107.1
9 Jean Beliveau 105.9
10 Maurice Richard 105.7
11 Guy Lafleur 104.9
12 Ted Lindsay 104.8
13 Bill Cowley 103.5
14 Marcel Dionne 103.2
15 Howie Morenz 102.8
16 Andy Bathgate 101.2
17 Joe Sakic 97.9
18 Charlie Conacher 97.1
19 Bill Cook 96.6
20 Alex Ovechkin 96.2
21 Doug Bentley 96.2
22 Frank Boucher 95.4
23 Elmer Lach 95.4
24 Max Bentley 94.9
25 Mike Bossy 94.4
26 Steve Yzerman 93.5
27 Bryan Trottier 93.5
28 Joe Thornton 93.3
29 Syl Apps Sr 93
30 Teemu Selanne 92.9
31 Toe Blake 92.6
32 Martin St. Louis 92.5
33 Sweeney Schriner 91.9
34 Peter Forsberg 90.9
35 Nels Stewart 90.5
36 Sidney Crosby 90.5
37 Adam Oates 90.2
38 Bernie Geoffrion 90.2
39 Busher Jackson 90
40 Marty Barry 89.9
41 Mark Messier 89.5
42 Roy Conacher 88.8
43 Mark Recchi 88.6
44 Norm Ullman 88.6
45 Jean Ratelle 88.5
46 Peter Stastny 88.3
47 Brett Hull 88.2
48 Jari Kurri 88.1
49 Gordie Drillon 88.1
50 Syd Howe 87.9
51 Sid Abel 87.8
52 Paul Coffey 87.7
53 Bobby Clarke 87.6
54 Ron Francis 87.6
55 Milt Schmidt 87.5
56 Jarome Iginla 87
57 Dickie Moore 86
58 Pavel Bure 86
59 Dale Hawerchuk 85.9
60 Henri Richard 85.6
61 Frank Mahovlich 85.5
62 Paul Kariya 85.4
63 Denis Savard 85.4
64 Eric Lindros 85.4
65 John Bucyk 85.3
66 Alex Delvecchio 84.9
67 Gilbert Perreault 84.6
68 Bryan Hextall 84.5
69 Luc Robitaille 84.4
70 Ilya Kovalchuk 84.3
71 Darryl Sittler 84.1
72 Markus Naslund 83.6
73 Paul Thompson 83.2
74 Aurel Joliat 83.1
75 Henrik Sedin 82.8
76 Marian Hossa 82.6
77 Clint Smith 82.6
78 Daniel Alfredsson 82.6
79 Mats Sundin 82.3
80 Doug Gilmour 82.3
81 Theoren Fleury 82.3
82 Pierre Turgeon 82.3
83 Bill Mosienko 82.2
84 John LeClair 82.1
85 Pavel Datsyuk 82
86 Mike Modano 81.7
87 Jeremy Roenick 81.5
88 Ted Kennedy 81.5
89 Dany Heatley 81.5
90 Lynn Patrick 81.2
91 Sergei Fedorov 81
92 Evgeni Malkin 80.7
93 Ziggy Palffy 80.6
94 Bernie Nicholls 80.3
95 Rod Gilbert 80.2
96 Lorne Carr 80.2
97 Ken Hodge 79.9
98 Cooney Weiland 79.4
99 Brendan Shanahan 79.3
100 Michel Goulet 79.3
101 Patrik Elias 79.3
102 Keith Tkachuk 79.3
103 Pat LaFontaine 78.8
104 Hooley Smith 78.8
105 Doug Weight 78.6
106 Cecil Dillon 78.4
107 Eric Staal 78.4
108 Brad Richards 78.4
109 Alexander Mogilny 78.1
110 Phil Watson 78.1
111 Alexei Yashin 77.6
112 Daniel Sedin 77.3
113 Bernie Federko 77.3
114 Vincent Lecavalier 77.2
115 Henrik Zetterberg 76.7
116 Bun Cook 76.6
117 Bert Olmstead 76.3
118 Bobby Bauer 76.2
119 Joe Primeau 76
120 Bobby Rousseau 76
121 Alex Kovalev 75.8
122 Red Kelly 75.7
123 Herbie Lewis 75.6
124 Jacques Lemaire 75.5
125 Raymond Bourque 75.3
126 Jason Spezza 75.2
127 Pavol Demitra 75.2
128 Johnny Gottselig 75
129 Phil Goyette 74.9
130 Lanny McDonald 74.6
131 Denis Potvin 74.3
132 Vincent Damphousse 74.2
133 Bill Thoms 74.2
134 Brian Leetch 74.1
135 Dit Clapper 74.1
136 Rick Middleton 74
137 Marc Savard 73.9
138 Milan Hejduk 73.8
139 Don McKenney 73.8
140 Yvan Cournoyer 73.6
141 Woody Dumart 73.5
142 Tony Amonte 73.3
143 Neil Colville 73.2
144 Dave Keon 73.2
145 Gaye Stewart 73.1
146 Ray Whitney 73
147 Rod Brind'Amour 72.8
148 Larry Aurie 72.7
149 Peter Bondra 72.5
150 Alex Tanguay 72.5
151 Herb Cain 72.2
152 Eddie Wiseman 72.1
153 Steve Larmer 72.1
154 Glenn Anderson 71.9
155 Kent Nilsson 71.7
156 Dennis Maruk 71.7
157 Mike Ribeiro 71.7
158 Rick MacLeish 71.6
159 Tod Sloan 71.5
160 Ryan Getzlaf 71.5
161 Joe Mullen 71.4
162 Buddy O'Connor 71.3
163 Patrick Marleau 71
164 Johnny Gagnon 71
165 Steve Shutt 70.8
166 Al MacInnis 70.6
167 Kenny Wharram 70.6
168 Joe Nieuwendyk 70.5
169 Dave Taylor 70.4
170 Pete Mahovlich 70.3
171 Rick Martin 70.2
172 Anze Kopitar 69.9
173 Dino Ciccarelli 69.9
174 Marian Gaborik 69.9
175 Ebbie Goodfellow 69.8
176 Nicklas Lidstrom 69.7
177 Billy Taylor 69.5
178 Rene Robert 69.4
179 Dave Andreychuk 69.4
180 Baldy Northcott 69.3
181 Todd Bertuzzi 69.2
182 Paul Ronty 69.1
183 Bobby Smith 69.1
184 Jimmy Ward 69
185 Gus Bodnar 68.7
186 Sid Smith 68.6
187 Bill Barber 68.6
188 Miroslav Satan 68.6
189 Olli Jokinen 68.5
190 Mike Gartner 68.5
191 Ed Litzenberger 68.5
192 Robert Lang 68.3
193 Scott Gomez 68.1
194 Ace Bailey 68.1
195 Steve Sullivan 68
196 Martin Straka 68
197 Pit Martin 67.9
198 Craig Janney 67.9
199 Kevin Stevens 67.8
200 Camille Henry 67.4
201 Jason Allison 67.2
202 Dean Prentice 67.1
203 Brian Propp 67
204 Garry Unger 67
205 Syl Apps 66.9
206 Owen Nolan 66.9
207 Claude Provost 66.9
208 Butch Goring 66.7
209 Art Jackson 66.7
210 Rick Nash 66.6
211 Peter McNab 66.5
212 Petr Nedved 66.4
213 Shane Doan 66.3
214 Fred Stanfield 66.2
215 Glen Murray 66.2
216 Pierre Larouche 66.1
217 Art Chapman 66
218 Alex Zhamnov 65.9
219 Patrick Kane 65.7
220 Charlie Simmer 65.5
221 Wilf Paiement 65.4
222 Dennis Hull 65.2
223 Joe Carveth 65.2
224 Murray Oliver 65.1
225 Petr Sykora 65.1
226 Barry Pederson 65
227 Kirk Muller 65
228 Wayne Cashman 65
229 Walt Tkaczuk 64.9
230 Red Berenson 64.9
231 Brian Bellows 64.9
232 Vic Stasiuk 64.8
233 Phil Housley 64.8
234 Johnny Peirson 64.7
235 Thomas Vanek 64.7
236 Cory Stillman 64.7
237 Grant Warwick 64.7
238 Corey Perry 64.7
239 Neal Broten 64.5
240 Bill Guerin 64.5
241 Vaclav Prospal 64.5
242 Greg Adams 64.5
243 Bill Hay 64.3
244 Zach Parise 64.3
245 Pat Verbeek 64.3
246 Tom Lysiak 64
247 John McKenzie 63.9
248 Cam Neely 63.8
249 Michael Nylander 63.7
250 Eddie Shore 63.7

Note that I haven't calculated a minimum score of 50 for each year.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 01-31-2014 at 08:58 PM.
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Old
03-31-2013, 09:51 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I think this is likely to give us the best basis for comparing relative scoring across all eras. Then maybe one for post-expansion players only:

- 10 season benchmark

- 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13

- minimum value 50
See results (1927-2013):

Rank Player Result
1 Wayne Gretzky 146.2
2 Gordie Howe 119.8
3 Phil Esposito 114.7
4 Mario Lemieux 113.9
5 Jaromir Jagr 107.7
6 Stan Mikita 103
7 Maurice Richard 102.2
8 Bobby Hull 101.6
9 Jean Beliveau 101.1
10 Marcel Dionne 97.9
11 Ted Lindsay 97.7
12 Andy Bathgate 96.8
13 Joe Sakic 94.8
14 Bill Cowley 93.7
15 Guy Lafleur 92.7
16 Bobby Orr 92.1
17 Howie Morenz 91.8
18 Frank Boucher 90.2
19 Mike Bossy 90.1
20 Steve Yzerman 89.7
21 Teemu Selanne 89.6
22 Joe Thornton 89
23 Bryan Trottier 88.2
24 Toe Blake 88.2
25 Nels Stewart 87.9
26 Elmer Lach 87.4
27 Syl Apps Sr 87.1
28 Adam Oates 87
29 Bill Cook 87
30 Martin St. Louis 86
31 Mark Messier 85.7
32 Doug Bentley 85.6
33 Charlie Conacher 85.5
34 Mark Recchi 85.2
35 Max Bentley 85.2
36 Ron Francis 84.9
37 Bernie Geoffrion 84.8
38 Brett Hull 84.5
39 Norm Ullman 84.5
40 Jean Ratelle 84.4
41 Peter Forsberg 84
42 Marty Barry 83.5
43 Sweeney Schriner 83.5
44 Alex Delvecchio 83.3
45 Paul Coffey 82.9
46 Syd Howe 82.8
47 Jari Kurri 82.5
48 Dale Hawerchuk 82.4
49 Frank Mahovlich 82.3
50 Busher Jackson 82.2
51 Peter Stastny 82.1
52 Jarome Iginla 82
53 Bobby Clarke 82
54 John Bucyk 81.9
55 Luc Robitaille 81.7
56 Gilbert Perreault 80.8
57 Milt Schmidt 80.7
58 Mats Sundin 80.5
59 Henri Richard 80.3
60 Paul Kariya 80.1
61 Darryl Sittler 79.9
62 Pierre Turgeon 79.6
63 Denis Savard 79.2
64 Roy Conacher 79.1
65 Theoren Fleury 78.9
66 Sid Abel 78.9
67 Mike Modano 78.5
68 Ilya Kovalchuk 78.5
69 Daniel Alfredsson 78.4
70 Doug Gilmour 78.3
71 Alex Ovechkin 78.3
72 Rod Gilbert 78.2
73 Sergei Fedorov 77.9
74 Eric Lindros 77.8
75 Marian Hossa 77.6
76 Jeremy Roenick 77.2
77 Ted Kennedy 77
78 Aurel Joliat 76.8
79 Dickie Moore 76.7
80 Pavel Datsyuk 76
81 Bill Mosienko 76
82 Henrik Sedin 75.6
83 Pavel Bure 75.6
84 Brendan Shanahan 75.5
85 Bryan Hextall 75.4
86 Markus Naslund 75.3
87 Keith Tkachuk 75
88 Bernie Nicholls 74.8
89 Lorne Carr 74.5
90 Bernie Federko 74.4
91 Patrik Elias 74.4
92 Clint Smith 74.4
93 Dany Heatley 74.3
94 Brad Richards 74.3
95 Alexander Mogilny 74.1
96 John LeClair 73.5
97 Doug Weight 73.5
98 Pat LaFontaine 73.3
99 Michel Goulet 73.2
100 Ken Hodge 72.8
101 Phil Watson 72.6
102 Alexei Yashin 72.4
103 Vincent Lecavalier 72.3
104 Raymond Bourque 72.1
105 Daniel Sedin 71.9
106 Paul Thompson 71.7
107 Vincent Damphousse 71.7
108 Lynn Patrick 71.7
109 Ziggy Palffy 71.7
110 Hooley Smith 71.6
111 Red Kelly 71.5
112 Sidney Crosby 71.4
113 Cooney Weiland 71.4
114 Bert Olmstead 70.7
115 Dave Keon 70.5
116 Bun Cook 70.5
117 Jacques Lemaire 70.4
118 Henrik Zetterberg 70.3
119 Alex Kovalev 70.2
120 Dit Clapper 70.1
121 Brian Leetch 70
122 Johnny Gottselig 69.8
123 Yvan Cournoyer 69.6
124 Bobby Rousseau 69.6
125 Woody Dumart 69.5
126 Cecil Dillon 69.5
127 Rod Brind'Amour 69.4
128 Pavol Demitra 69.4
129 Ray Whitney 69.4
130 Lanny McDonald 69.2
131 Steve Larmer 68.8
132 Phil Goyette 68.8
133 Tony Amonte 68.7
134 Denis Potvin 68.6
135 Rick Middleton 68.4
136 Don McKenney 68.3
137 Milan Hejduk 68.2
138 Herbie Lewis 68
139 Peter Bondra 67.9
140 Alex Tanguay 67.6
141 Joe Mullen 67.4
142 Dino Ciccarelli 67.3
143 Eric Staal 67.3
144 Bill Thoms 67.3
145 Herb Cain 67.2
146 Joe Nieuwendyk 67.2
147 Al MacInnis 67
148 Patrick Marleau 66.9
149 Glenn Anderson 66.7
150 Bobby Smith 66.7
151 Dave Andreychuk 66.7
152 Nicklas Lidstrom 66.5
153 Mike Gartner 66.3
154 Gordie Drillon 66.2
155 Marc Savard 66.1
156 Pete Mahovlich 66
157 Bill Barber 65.6
158 Dave Taylor 65.2
159 Dennis Maruk 65.1
160 Ebbie Goodfellow 64.9
161 Brian Propp 64.9
162 Buddy O'Connor 64.9
163 Dean Prentice 64.6
164 Scott Gomez 64.3
165 Eddie Wiseman 64.3
166 Marian Gaborik 64.3
167 Larry Aurie 64.2
168 Tod Sloan 64.1
169 Rick MacLeish 63.9
170 Mike Ribeiro 63.7
171 Pit Martin 63.5
172 Jason Spezza 63.5
173 Miroslav Satan 63.3
174 Kenny Wharram 63.2
175 Owen Nolan 63.1
176 Shane Doan 63.1
177 Rick Martin 63
178 Steve Shutt 62.9
179 Garry Unger 62.8
180 Phil Housley 62.7
181 Olli Jokinen 62.4
182 Alex Zhamnov 62.3
183 Steve Sullivan 62.3
184 Craig Janney 62
185 Todd Bertuzzi 61.9
186 Brian Bellows 61.8
187 Gus Bodnar 61.8
188 Jimmy Ward 61.7
189 Rick Nash 61.6
190 Robert Lang 61.5
191 Tom Lysiak 61.5
192 Butch Goring 61.3
193 Johnny Gagnon 61.3
194 Pat Verbeek 61.2
195 Martin Straka 61
196 Claude Provost 60.9
197 Petr Sykora 60.8
198 Murray Oliver 60.8
199 Rene Robert 60.8
200 Pierre Larouche 60.7
201 Evgeni Malkin 60.6
202 Camille Henry 60.6
203 Petr Nedved 60.3
204 Kirk Muller 60.1
205 Ryan Smyth 59.9
206 Cory Stillman 59.8
207 Peter McNab 59.7
208 Gaye Stewart 59.6
209 Dennis Hull 59.6
210 Vyacheslav Kozlov 59.6
211 Wayne Cashman 59.6
212 Neil Colville 59.5
213 Kevin Stevens 59.5
214 Wilf Paiement 59.4
215 Jason Arnott 59.3
216 Bill Guerin 59.3
217 Neal Broten 59.3
218 Andrew Brunette 59.3
219 Cliff Ronning 59.1
220 Sergei Gonchar 59
221 Eddie Shore 58.9
222 Bob Nevin 58.9
223 Vic Hadfield 58.8
224 Jozef Stumpel 58.8
225 Larry Murphy 58.7
226 Jean Pronovost 58.5
227 Fred Stanfield 58.5
228 George Armstrong 58.5
229 Steve Thomas 58.5
230 Red Berenson 58.4
231 Gary Roberts 58.3
232 Ivan Boldirev 58.3
233 Chris Drury 58.2
234 Tomas Sandstrom 58
235 Michael Nylander 57.9
236 Glen Murray 57.8
237 Mush March 57.8
238 Greg Adams 57.8
239 Baldy Northcott 57.8
240 Rick Tocchet 57.8
241 Bobby Bauer 57.7
242 Saku Koivu 57.5
243 Joe Primeau 57.4
244 Mike Ridley 57.4
245 Kent Nilsson 57.4
246 Robert Reichel 57.3
247 Andrew Cassels 57.2
248 Walt Tkaczuk 57.2
249 Brad Park 57.2
250 Vaclav Prospal 57.2

Again, I haven't applied a minimum score of 50 for each season.


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04-01-2013, 12:44 PM
  #86
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So that I don't have to dig through the whole thread again:

Someone explain to me why we are weighing seasons differently?

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04-01-2013, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
So that I don't have to dig through the whole thread again:

Someone explain to me why we are weighing seasons differently?
To show who had higher peaks, I believe. For instance, I think 95, 90, 85, 70, 65, 60 will show up better than just six scores of 77.5. I could be completely wrong though.

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04-01-2013, 06:39 PM
  #88
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I really appreciate all of the great work that is being done in this thread. There is one thing that I still do not quite understand... Why are you using the 10% method on teammates of outliers? It seems like the 10% method is a great way to determine who is an outlier, but when it comes to teammates of outliers why does it matter if they are an outlier too? Most of the time we know they would have had a lower point total if they were in any situation other than being the teammate of an outlier. Here are some examples:

1984: Paul Coffey is used as the benchmark...he outscored Michel Goulet by 5 points. Does anyone in their right mind really think Coffey would have outscored Goulet if he wasn't playing with a Gretzky type of teammate? Goulet earned himself a score of 100, but instead he will get a 96...not a huge difference, but there's no question to me which is more accurate, and don't we want to be as accurate as we can?


1985: Same situation but with Kurri and Hawerchuk...Hawerchuk is denied a well earned score of 100, and was very likely the second best offensive player that season, which is what is trying to be determined.


1974:
1. Esposito - 145
2. Orr - 122
3. Hodge - 105
4. Cashman - 89
5. Clarke - 87
6. Martin - 86
...average as benchmark: 106

Why is Orr included in the average? Common sense tells us that he is clearly an outlier. Were Hodge or Cashman really better offensive players that year than Clarke? Would they have had a chance at putting up those point totals with a league average #1 C and #1 Dman instead of Esposito and Orr? For our purposes, whenever a comparison is done that involves Hodge or Cashman everyone knows that their team situation needs to be taken into account, and their vs.X numbers are looked at differently than other players, but what about Clarke and Martin? Is Clarke's offense this season really equal to a score of 82 in other seasons (last year that would've been somewhere in-between John Tavares and Patrick Elias)? If not, are people going to remember to treat this year differently for them? Why not just make Clarke the benchmark, so you only have to worry about Boston players when making comparisons?


I want to emphasize again, that I think the work being done in this thread is terrific...Raising these concerns is just my attempt at making this system even better.

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04-06-2013, 04:12 AM
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I meant to thank you for this before, HO. The level of interest and participation that we've had in this thread continues to surprise and please me. The greatest virtue of this project is almost certainly the fact that it is the result of an ongoing iterative process - the fruit of a discussion started years ago by BM67 to which many people have added their analysis and opinion. This is "open source" historiography.

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04-06-2013, 09:54 AM
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It's been a pretty flexible formula that's been pretty good for assessing numbers beyond the standard straight stats.

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04-06-2013, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
To show who had higher peaks, I believe. For instance, I think 95, 90, 85, 70, 65, 60 will show up better than just six scores of 77.5. I could be completely wrong though.
That is correct. It is an attempt to acknowledge that a player's best seasons are also his most important, from a career perspective. I find seventies' idea of weighing the 3rd best season the most to be the best we've come up with yet, because I think by the time you get to the 3rd best season, you are in the realm of what I would call "sustained production". It is possible for outliers to exist within an individual player's career, just as in an NHL season, and by putting the middle point of the focus on the 3rd best season, I think we dampen the significance of potential outlier seasons.

But this is a matter of personal taste.

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04-06-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
1984: Paul Coffey is used as the benchmark...he outscored Michel Goulet by 5 points. Does anyone in their right mind really think Coffey would have outscored Goulet if he wasn't playing with a Gretzky type of teammate?
Coffey was 6th in NHL scoring in the 1994-95 season, playing in Detroit. Did he have the talent to finish second in league scoring on his own merits? Certainly.

Quote:
1985: Same situation but with Kurri and Hawerchuk...Hawerchuk is denied a well earned score of 100, and was very likely the second best offensive player that season, which is what is trying to be determined.
Jarri Kurri was 8th in league scoring in 1988-89 with Gretzky playing in LA. He was a very talented scorer, with or without the Great One, whose ass he spent a lot of time covering.

Quote:
1974:
1. Esposito - 145
2. Orr - 122
3. Hodge - 105
4. Cashman - 89
5. Clarke - 87
6. Martin - 86
...average as benchmark: 106
Obviously we have to treat Cashman and Hodge's production here carefully, and everybody knows that. Those two were never outlier scorers based on talent. But the simple fact of the matter is that those points were scored, and we cannot arbitrarily act as though they do not exist.

Quote:
Why is Orr included in the average?
Because he scored those points. The whole purpose of the option #3, or averaging system, is to find some sort of middle point between the outliers and the pack and use that as a benchmark on the assumption that this will create the least distortions (not on the assumption that it is perfect).

Also, we cannot simply remove Bobby Orr because he is Bobby Orr. The VsX system treats all players and all seasons equally, and identifies and removes outliers based on a clear, mathematical system. Arbitrarily removing players because of their names or because they are "70's Bruins" is no system, at all, and leads to nothing but endless, and fruitless, disagreement.

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04-06-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Coffey was 6th in NHL scoring in the 1994-95 season, playing in Detroit. Did he have the talent to finish second in league scoring on his own merits? Certainly.



Jarri Kurri was 8th in league scoring in 1988-89 with Gretzky playing in LA. He was a very talented scorer, with or without the Great One, whose ass he spent a lot of time covering.



Obviously we have to treat Cashman and Hodge's production here carefully, and everybody knows that. Those two were never outlier scorers based on talent. But the simple fact of the matter is that those points were scored, and we cannot arbitrarily act as though they do not exist.



Because he scored those points. The whole purpose of the option #3, or averaging system, is to find some sort of middle point between the outliers and the pack and use that as a benchmark on the assumption that this will create the least distortions (not on the assumption that it is perfect).

Also, we cannot simply remove Bobby Orr because he is Bobby Orr. The VsX system treats all players and all seasons equally, and identifies and removes outliers based on a clear, mathematical system. Arbitrarily removing players because of their names or because they are "70's Bruins" is no system, at all, and leads to nothing but endless, and fruitless, disagreement.
I appreciate the response, but I don't understand why you are using things players did in other seasons to make some kind of prediction on whether they are worthy enough to be considered the #2 scorer in a season where we already know how they performed?

I would like answers to these questions...

- Do you think Coffey still outscores Goulet by 5 points in 1984 with a high-end #1 center instead of an offensive freak like Gretzky as a teammate?
- If the answer is yes, then we just disagree, and can move on. If the answer is no, why wouldn't you use Goulet's point total as the benchmark?
- Exact same two questions in regards to Jari Kurri and Dale Hawerchuk in 1985.
- Does Bobby Clarke's offensive performance in 1974 equate to a vs.X score of 82 in most other seasons?
- If the answer is yes, then again, we disagree, and can move on. If the answer is no, what do you think is the best way to treat this season when doing player comparisons?


Here are a few more comments that are not so easily addressed with simple questions like the above...

In regards to the bolded, I agree that we cannot arbitrarily remove players just because of their team. They should be decided on a case-by-case basis. I actually think that the closer an outlier teammate is to the next guy, the easier it is to dismiss him, like in the 1984 and 1985 examples I gave. The more difficult cases are when they have a big lead, like Hodge's 18pt lead over Clarke in 1974. How do we know if all 18 of Hodge's points can be attributed to Orr and Espo? If you want a structured system, perhaps a good compromise would be to average the outlier teammate and best non-outlier teammate scores, and use that as the benchmark? For example, the 1984 score would be123.5, and 132.5 for 1985, and 95.5 for 1974 (this excludes Orr).

As far as Bobby Orr goes, he is such an anomaly that he really has to be treated differently than everyone else. Never has any other defenseman led the NHL is scoring. Never has a defenseman finished 2nd in scoring with such large gaps to 3rd place. A defenseman outscoring all or almost all of the league by that much is an outlier of some kind, and I think it's something that should be accounted for when doing player comparisons. The reason for this can be seen by looking at Bobby Clarke's score of 82 in 1974, which to me clearly undervalues his season when comparing him to scores of 82 in most other seasons.


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04-06-2013, 02:47 PM
  #94
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Quote:
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In regards to the bolded, I agree that we cannot arbitrarily remove players just because of their team. They should be decided on a case-by-case basis.
They should not be "decided", at all. That is just the point, and perhaps the problem. Deciding to remove player x in season y because you think that his teammate was an outlier is not a method, but a fudge.

Maybe the system could be improved by some sort of further rule? I dunno. If player x in the outlier tier is above a certain threshold, then any line/teammates are automatically removed from the algorithm. Maybe this would be of some use? Why don't you suggest a method? We could test it out and see if it yields results that seem more reasonable than what we have at present. The only thing I am sure of in all of this is that we cannot simply remove players based on some sort of gut feeling.

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04-06-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
They should not be "decided", at all. That is just the point, and perhaps the problem. Deciding to remove player x in season y because you think that his teammate was an outlier is not a method, but a fudge.

Maybe the system could be improved by some sort of further rule? I dunno. If player x in the outlier tier is above a certain threshold, then any line/teammates are automatically removed from the algorithm. Maybe this would be of some use? Why don't you suggest a method? We could test it out and see if it yields results that seem more reasonable than what we have at present. The only thing I am sure of in all of this is that we cannot simply remove players based on some sort of gut feeling.
I think we're getting somewhere here. Your bolded suggestion is a good place to start. We will still partially be going by our gut feeling, because as you said, it's kinda trial and error until we see something that looks right, but a threshold is a good way to make sure we're treating every case equally, which is what I think you are looking for.

I'm still not sure what to do about Orr. I have a feeling that a separate set of rules for defensemen is the beginning of the answer though.

EDIT: I probably won't have time today, but when I do have some I will do my part to contribute to a solution.

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04-08-2013, 01:25 PM
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Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2012):

Rank Player Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 155.1
2 Phil Esposito 123.4
3 Mario Lemieux 120.4
4 Jean Beliveau 108.9
5 Stan Mikita 108.1
6 Bill Cowley* 103.5
7 Marcel Dionne 103.2
8 Howie Morenz 102.8
9 Joe Sakic 97.9
10 Frank Boucher 95.4
11 Elmer Lach* 95.4
12 Max Bentley* 94.9
13 Steve Yzerman 93.5
14 Bryan Trottier 93.5
15 Joe Thornton 93.3
16 Syl Apps Sr 93
17 Peter Forsberg 90.9
18 Nels Stewart 90.5
19 Adam Oates 90.2
20 Marty Barry 89.9
21 Mark Messier 89.5
22 Norm Ullman 88.7
23 Jean Ratelle 88.5
24 Peter Stastny 88.3
25 Sid Abel 87.8
26 Bobby Clarke 87.6
27 Ron Francis 87.6
28 Milt Schmidt 87.5
29 Henri Richard 86.2
30 Dale Hawerchuk 85.9
31 Denis Savard 85.4
32 Eric Lindros 85.4
33 Alex Delvecchio 84.9
34 Gilbert Perreault 84.6
35 Darryl Sittler 84.1
36 Clint Smith* 82.6
37 Sidney Crosby 82.4
38 Mats Sundin 82.3
39 Doug Gilmour 82.3
40 Pierre Turgeon 82.3
41 Mike Modano 81.7
42 Henrik Sedin 81.7
43 Jeremy Roenick 81.5
44 Ted Kennedy 81.5
45 Sergei Fedorov 81
46 Bernie Nicholls 80.3
47 Cooney Weiland 79.4
48 Pavel Datsyuk 78.9
49 Pat LaFontaine 78.8
50 Hooley Smith 78.8
51 Doug Weight 78.6
52 Brad Richards 78.4
53 Phil Watson 78.1
54 Alexei Yashin 77.6
55 Bernie Federko 77.3
56 Vincent Lecavalier 77.2
57 Joe Primeau 76
58 Don McKenney 75.8
59 Jacques Lemaire 75.5
60 Jason Spezza 75.2
61 Phil Goyette 74.9
62 Vincent Damphousse 74.2
63 Bill Thoms 74.2
64 Marc Savard 73.9
65 Eric Staal 73.8
66 Neil Colville 73.2
67 Evgeni Malkin 73.2
68 Henrik Zetterberg 73.2
69 Dave Keon 73.2
70 Rod Brind'Amour 72.8
71 Tod Sloan 72.8
72 Kent Nilsson 71.7
73 Dennis Maruk 71.7
74 Rick MacLeish 71.6
75 Buddy O'Connor* 71.3
76 Patrick Marleau 71
77 Ed Litzenberger 70.8
78 Joe Nieuwendyk 70.5
79 Pete Mahovlich 70.3
80 Billy Taylor* 69.5
81 Paul Ronty 69.1
82 Bobby Smith 69.1
83 Olli Jokinen 68.5
84 Scott Gomez 68.1
85 Steve Sullivan 68
86 Pit Martin 67.9
87 Craig Janney 67.9
88 Jason Allison 67.2
89 Garry Unger 67
90 Syl Apps 66.9
91 Butch Goring 66.7
92 Art Jackson* 66.7
93 Mike Ribeiro 66.4
94 Petr Nedved 66.4
95 Fred Stanfield 66.2
96 Pierre Larouche 66.1
97 Art Chapman 66
98 Alex Zhamnov 65.9
99 Murray Oliver 65.1
100 Barry Pederson 65
101 Walt Tkaczuk 64.9
102 Red Berenson 64.9
103 Cory Stillman 64.7
104 Ryan Getzlaf 64.6
105 Neal Broten 64.5
106 Vaclav Prospal 64.5
107 Tom Lysiak 64
108 Michael Nylander 63.7
109 Jozef Stumpel 63.1

* wartime star

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04-08-2013, 01:44 PM
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Top-7 weighted VsX for Defensemen (1926-2012):

Rank Player Rank
1 Bobby Orr 109.3
2 Paul Coffey 87.7
3 Raymond Bourque 75.3
4 Denis Potvin 74.3
5 Brian Leetch 74.1
6 Red Kelly* 71
7 Al MacInnis 70.6
8 Nicklas Lidstrom 69.7
9 Phil Housley 64.8
10 Eddie Shore 63.7
11 Sergei Gonchar 62
12 Bill Gadsby 61.1
13 Brad Park 61
14 Doug Harvey 60.3
15 Sergei Zubov 59.4
16 Pierre Pilote 59.2
17 Larry Robinson 59
18 Gary Suter 56.7
19 King Clancy 56.4
20 Mark Howe 53.1
21 Doug Wilson 53
22 Chris Chelios 52
23 Dan Boyle 51.6

* only counting time on D


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04-08-2013, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Top-7 weighted VsX for Defensemen (1926-2012):

Rank Player Rank
1 Bobby Orr 109.3
2 Paul Coffey 87.7
3 Red Kelly* 75.7
4 Raymond Bourque 75.3
5 Denis Potvin 74.3
6 Brian Leetch 74.1
7 Dit Clapper* 74.1
8 Al MacInnis 70.6
9 Ebbie Goodfellow* 69.8
10 Nicklas Lidstrom 69.7
11 Phil Housley 64.8

* spent substantial time at forward
We know the exact years Kelly, Clapper, and Goodfellow spent at D and at F; why not just only look at their years at D? I would imagine that Goodfellow and Clapper drop off the list entirely, while Kelly's position is barely affected.

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04-08-2013, 02:01 PM
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Top-7 weighted VsX for Left Wings (1926-2012):

Rank Player Rank
1 Bobby Hull 107.1
2 Ted Lindsay 106
3 Doug Bentley* ** 96.2
4 Toe Blake* 92.6
5 Alex Ovechkin 92.1
6 Sweeney Schriner 91.9
7 Busher Jackson 90
8 Roy Conacher** 88.8
9 Dickie Moore 88.6
10 Syd Howe* 87.9
11 Sid Abel 87.8
12 John Bucyk 86.3
13 Frank Mahovlich 85.5
14 Paul Kariya 85.4
15 Alex Delvecchio 84.9
16 Luc Robitaille 84.4
17 Ilya Kovalchuk 84.3
18 Markus Naslund 83.6
19 Paul Thompson 83.2
20 Aurel Joliat 83.1
21 John LeClair 82.1
22 Lynn Patrick* 81.2
23 Brendan Shanahan 79.3
24 Michel Goulet 79.3
25 Keith Tkachuk 79.3
26 Patrik Elias 79.2
27 Bert Olmstead 76.9
28 Daniel Sedin 76.9
29 Bun Cook 76.6
30 Herbie Lewis 75.6
31 Pavol Demitra 75.2
32 Johnny Gottselig 75
33 Vincent Damphousse 74.2
34 Milan Hejduk 73.8
35 Woody Dumart 73.5
36 Gaye Stewart* 73.1
37 Ray Whitney 73
38 Alex Tanguay 72.5
39 Herb Cain* 72.2
40 Patrick Marleau 71
41 Steve Shutt 70.8
42 Pete Mahovlich 70.3
43 Rick Martin 70.2
44 Dave Andreychuk 69.4
45 Baldy Northcott 69.3
46 Sid Smith 69.1
47 Bill Barber 68.6
48 Camille Henry 68.6
49 Miroslav Satan 68.6
50 Dean Prentice 68
51 Kevin Stevens 67.8
52 Brian Propp 67
53 Vic Stasiuk 66.5
54 Shane Doan 66.3
55 Fred Stanfield 66.2
56 Charlie Simmer 65.5
57 Dennis Hull 65.2
58 Kirk Muller 65
59 Wayne Cashman 65
60 Red Berenson 64.9
61 Brian Bellows 64.9
62 Cory Stillman 64.7
63 Greg Adams 64.5
64 Bill Hay 64.3
66 Mats Naslund 63.5
67 Vyacheslav Kozlov 63.5
68 Rick Nash 63.5
69 Simon Gagne 63.1

* wartime star

** 1949-50 Chicago


Last edited by Sturminator: 04-09-2013 at 01:31 AM.
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04-08-2013, 02:03 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
We know the exact years Kelly, Clapper, and Goodfellow spent at D and at F; why not just only look at their years at D? I would imagine that Goodfellow and Clapper drop off the list entirely, while Kelly's position is barely affected.
Tell me what they are, and I'll calculate their scores by hand. I added Eddie Shore to the list. I had missed him the first time through. Remarkable that he makes it, at all, given the era in which he played. We should probably calculate the scores for Sergei Gonchar, as well.

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