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Is PK Subban the Norris Front-runner?

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Old
04-08-2013, 12:12 PM
  #26
overlords
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Originally Posted by SB164 View Post
I never understood the sheer blind hatred for Mike Green. Sure, he wasn't a great defensive defenseman, but the guy once scored 31 goals. That's ridiculous.
Ever see his website? That's likely one of the reasons people hate him

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04-08-2013, 12:14 PM
  #27
Burke the Legend
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Originally Posted by ClasslessGuy View Post
It's Pathetic to read some of the sens fan on the main boards.

- There should be an * beside this year winner
- They should not give the trophee
lol losers

why are they ********? yeah it sucks Karlsson got injured but it's not like Subban did it.

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04-08-2013, 12:21 PM
  #28
Habssince89
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
lol losers

why are they ********? yeah it sucks Karlsson got injured but it's not like Subban did it.
Many rivals fans hate it that the Habs have a superstar Dman in Subban. It causes many of them to live in a world of double standards and denial. They can cry me a river about injuries.

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04-08-2013, 12:40 PM
  #29
Guy Germaine
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Originally Posted by SB164 View Post
I never understood the sheer blind hatred for Mike Green. Sure, he wasn't a great defensive defenseman, but the guy once scored 31 goals. That's ridiculous.
agree. Once you're labeled a "liabilty" it's hard to shake that tag. Subban's been carrying that tag around since junior.

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Old
04-08-2013, 12:48 PM
  #30
SB164
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Ever see his website? That's likely one of the reasons people hate him
You do have a point:


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Old
04-08-2013, 12:55 PM
  #31
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It's plausible but not likely. There are several plausible candidates and many factors go into a vote. However, I'd be outraged if the Norris trophy is awarded to an undeserving Zdeno Chara, for example.

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04-08-2013, 01:03 PM
  #32
ClasslessGuy
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who's voting for the norris?

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04-08-2013, 01:04 PM
  #33
JustAHabFan
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who's voting for the norris?
The journalists, I think.

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Old
04-08-2013, 01:07 PM
  #34
madhi19
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He get nominated but won't win it. Let face it the Norris like the Vezina is a popularity contest where stats count less than seniority. Look for a veterant who paid his due and is back from three years of bad luck like Markov to get it. If they do that the writers will have looked at last year 15th place in the East without Markov and this year second and maybe first place in the East with Markov and decide that Markov is the big difference maker. Now if they make that reasonement could they also forget Crosby for MVP and go with Markov?


Last edited by madhi19: 04-08-2013 at 02:02 PM.
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Old
04-08-2013, 01:15 PM
  #35
macavoy
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With Emelin going down, PK's ice time will likely increase, which should help his chances.

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04-08-2013, 01:15 PM
  #36
rwb
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He's not the favourite, but he is definitely a nominee at this point.

You likely have your 3 nominees being Subban and Suter.

Plus one of Beauchemin, Letang, Weber, or Chara.

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04-08-2013, 01:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
He get nominated but won't win it. Let face it the Norris like the Vezina is a popularity contest where stats count less than seniority. Look for a veterant who paid his due and is back from three years of bad luck like Markov to get it. If they do that the writers will have looked at last year 15th place in the East without Markov and this year second and maybe first place in the East with Markov and decide that Markov is the big difference maker. Now if they make that reasonement could they also forget Crosby for MVP and go with Markov.
Can Markov be nominated for the Bill Masterton instead?

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04-08-2013, 01:41 PM
  #38
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No question. I watched the Bruins game on NESN (thanks gamecenter) and even Edwards is in awe of his ability. He doesn't need a lot of space to turn directions, or avoid checks, even while holding the puck. That applies a lot of pressure on the other team's defense. He is not only effective, but spectacular in doing so. It's everything you want from professional athlete.

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Old
04-08-2013, 02:00 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Can Markov be nominated for the Bill Masterton instead?
I think Markov a lock for the Masterton but could that push him in the Norris/Hart conversation at the same time? Or does that exclude him?

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Old
04-08-2013, 02:19 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Why should he "blamed"? I don't understand YOUR logic.

I'm just saying that being dominant for 48 games overall is a less important feat than being dominant for 82 games overall. You still need to point out a winner, and I strongly believe Subban deserves it.

Not saying Subban wouldn't have competed at the same level in a 82 game season either. But it's not a 82 games season. Therefore, this year shouldn't be used for comparative stats and award with the other years before and after.

The NHL playoffs, however, will be 100% comparable, since nothing will be different.
You are saying that he's not on par with other Norris winners in the past because it's not a full schedule. Why should we hold that against him? It's not Subban that decided to cancel the season half-way through and run away with the trophy. The Norris is awarded to the best defenseman during said, season, period. There is no * as you imply and there won't be one. Every other defenseman has had the same amount of games to make a bid for it, and the competition is as stiff as ever, especially this year with a monster season from Suter. The only thing you can possibly make an argument for is the fact that Karlsson got injured, and even then, I don't think he was playing and better than Subban when healthy this year.

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Old
04-08-2013, 03:12 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
I think Markov a lock for the Masterton but could that push him in the Norris/Hart conversation at the same time? Or does that exclude him?
No way Markov gets a Norris nomination. Why should he? He's been a great force on the PP, and has made a nice comeback. But he has clearly lost a step, and PK is playing better.
To me it's PK vs Suter, and if Letang comes back soon, he'll get some votes too.
But as of today, nobody can really argue that there's any Dman out there playing better than PK.

I think PK could maybe even get some votes for the Hart. But in the end I believe Ovechkin will win the Hart, possibly even the Rocket Richard and Art Ross too.
The guy is on a serious mission.

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Old
04-08-2013, 03:17 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Why should he "blamed"? I don't understand YOUR logic.

I'm just saying that being dominant for 48 games overall is a less important feat than being dominant for 82 games overall. You still need to point out a winner, and I strongly believe Subban deserves it.

Not saying Subban wouldn't have competed at the same level in a 82 game season either. But it's not a 82 games season. Therefore, this year shouldn't be used for comparative stats and award with the other years before and after.

The NHL playoffs, however, will be 100% comparable, since nothing will be different.
But that's just wrong. I mean, sure, dominating over 82 games is different than 48, no doubt about it. It's almost half the games.

However, it's not like PK is the only one playing that short season. Every other Dman in the NHL is going through it as well, and none of them are playing better than PK.
So who cares if 82 is different than 48? At the end of the day, today, PK is better than every other Dman in the NHL and that's all that matters.

Maybe PK would get injured at game #50, maybe he wouldn't. Maybe he'd keep up his pace and progression, maybe not. Completely irrelevant.

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Old
04-08-2013, 03:40 PM
  #43
Frankenheimer
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I don't think there's any question that performing at Subban's level over 82 games is better than 48 games. Doesn't mean that he wasn't the best player in those 48 games. Doesn't mean that there should be an asterisk next to his inevitable norris trophy. But objectively speaking an 82-game performance at Subban's level is better than a 48 one. Same is true of nearly everything else, including president's trophy. The standard benchmark we use to compare seasons is 82 games. Not sure how that can be argued away.

In any case, this will all be moot next year when he bags another trophy.

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04-08-2013, 03:45 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
With Emelin going down, PK's ice time will likely increase, which should help his chances.
Or wear him too thin.
And 48 games is a sufficient sample to compare to 82 games. It's not like PJ had ups and down. He's been full speed ahead since day 1 (or day 6 when he actually signed haha), and it's unfathomable to think that between game 49 and game 82 some random player would just come and steal the trophy from any of the front runners. And if you wanna argue that it's possible that PK would lose out the trophy to any of the other contenders if the season was 82 games, you could argue that any past winners may have finished 2nd in voting if the season was 90 or 100 games.

This isn't a mini season. We're playing 59% of the season. People usually know who's going where by that time.

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Old
04-08-2013, 04:00 PM
  #45
Frankenheimer
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
And 48 games is a sufficient sample to compare to 82 games.
I recall when the Vezina discussions came up a few years ago, nearly everyone saw Price's 70 starts as more impressive than Thomas's 55. Imagine if Thomas had played in only 48 games.

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04-08-2013, 04:05 PM
  #46
InglewoodJack
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Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
I recall when the Vezina discussions came up a few years ago, nearly everyone saw Price's 70 starts as more impressive than Thomas's 55. Imagine if Thomas had played in only 48 games.
In the same season, sure. If PK was out for the last 32 games of the season then someone else should win. That being said, the best defenseman for the entire season was PK (or whoever wins), and baring a freak incident, all the front runners for the Norris would be the same after 48 games and 82 games, give or take one candidate.

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Old
04-08-2013, 04:24 PM
  #47
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Saying there should be an asterisk is ridiculous. Does Coffey have one by his name for his 1994/95 Norris Trophy? I don't think so. So no, this years (if Subban) doesn't either. And if he does, than so does all trophies for this season.

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Old
04-08-2013, 04:29 PM
  #48
Frankenheimer
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
In the same season, sure. If PK was out for the last 32 games of the season then someone else should win. That being said, the best defenseman for the entire season was PK (or whoever wins), and baring a freak incident, all the front runners for the Norris would be the same after 48 games and 82 games, give or take one candidate.
I think there's a bunch of different arguments going on. My only point is that PK is deserving this year but that an 82-game performance of similar calibre is objectively different than a truncated one, even if both count as "seasons" and even if it were somehow established that what happens during 48 games remains constant over 82. The fact remains, that one guy played 48, the other 82. Whether that means anything depends on the nature of the argument (for example, comparing Karlsson's season with Subban's). In the big picture, it won't matter, assuming both players play another dozen seasons.

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Old
04-08-2013, 04:31 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by NLHabsFan View Post
Saying there should be an asterisk is ridiculous. Does Coffey have one by his name for his 1994/95 Norris Trophy? I don't think so. So no, this years (if Subban) doesn't either. And if he does, than so does all trophies for this season.
Who is arguing for an asterisk? Haven't read previous pages of this thread.

edit: Ok. I saw that some posters implied this.

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Old
04-08-2013, 04:34 PM
  #50
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Ovechkin can't win the hart because he had no heart for the first 20 games

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