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04-08-2013, 11:06 PM
  #201
The Wyzerhood
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Originally Posted by str8shooter View Post
If Carle can continue with his improved play, we don't really have to go outside the organization to upgrade the D unless someone really good is available. The problem isn't our depth on D, that's actually ok. It's our lack of a true #1, as I don't think Hedman has proven that yet. Look at all the guys below, who else sticks out as better than second pairing?

Hedman- Salo
Carle- Brewer
Aulie- Gudas- Barberio- Korobov- Sustr- Taormina- Lee- Mikkelson
I think Hedman is a very capable #1 d-man, I mean what else could you ask for? He's incredibly solid defensively shutting down the other team's top lines night after night, is very composed with the puck, very fast, good at blocking shots, is improving his offensive numbers every year, knows when to take the body and when to take the puck, is a good passer and knows when to join the rush.

The problem is Brewer. He's overpaid, slow and constantly costs us, whether it be at the opposing team's blue line or on the rush with players constantly beating him out wide. We simply can't have Brewer playing 20 mins/game imo.

Your list shows that we have plenty of bottom pairing defensemen, but are lacking a solid top 4 unit. Salo's pretty injury-prone too and if either him and/or Hedman go down, we become incredibly thin.


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04-08-2013, 11:21 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
2.7M is a 4-5 defender.
We don't need a 4-5 defender. If we need anything it's a 2-3 defender.

And they have 3M in cap space if they want it in Ohlund. 4.5M more in Malone.

As for the future, a normal buyout is still possible in his later years when it won't cost near as much on the cap to do so.

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04-09-2013, 08:49 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by str8shooter View Post
If Carle can continue with his improved play, we don't really have to go outside the organization to upgrade the D unless someone really good is available. The problem isn't our depth on D, that's actually ok. It's our lack of a true #1, as I don't think Hedman has proven that yet. Look at all the guys below, who else sticks out as better than second pairing?

Hedman- Salo
Carle- Brewer
Aulie- Gudas- Barberio- Korobov- Sustr- Taormina- Lee- Mikkelson
Hedman and Salo are a fine #1 pairing (but with Salo, it is a short fix).

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04-09-2013, 08:55 AM
  #204
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[QUOTE=Tampa Bay Trio;63571007]I'm frequently surprised at how poorly we perform too, but I keep coming back to one player - Stamkos. He isn't dominating games and looks scared to take a hit to make a play.

THIS. I always felt he'd be more comfortable as a winger than a pivot, plus it would save us from having to see the same "skate up the boards with the puck, stop at the top of the circle, spin, attempt a centering pass, begin an odd man rush for the other team" move that he does every time.

He's unconscious when he shoots, he overthinks things when he has to distribute the puck.

/nice to see him sticking up for Marty in that last Caps game though.

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04-09-2013, 09:09 AM
  #205
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Salo works well on the top pairing, but I'd prefer him on the second to help cover for Carle. Honestly Gudas would be okay up there too... always makes the smart, simple play. Then again, we could have our top pairing set for the next fifteen years if we keep playing like this.

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04-09-2013, 09:47 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
Salo works well on the top pairing, but I'd prefer him on the second to help cover for Carle. Honestly Gudas would be okay up there too... always makes the smart, simple play. Then again, we could have our top pairing set for the next fifteen years if we keep playing like this.
Who? Carle and Brewer?

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04-09-2013, 09:52 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by NHLeitner View Post
THIS. I always felt he'd be more comfortable as a winger than a pivot, plus it would save us from having to see the same "skate up the boards with the puck, stop at the top of the circle, spin, attempt a centering pass, begin an odd man rush for the other team" move that he does every time.

He's unconscious when he shoots, he overthinks things when he has to distribute the puck.

/nice to see him sticking up for Marty in that last Caps game though.
I think with Stamkos, he needs to work on changing his speeds and not constantly work in one gear to attack the opposition. He has become too predictable and lacks variety to his offensive game. He could stand to shoot more on the rush, opposed to circling behind the net and eventually turning the puck over. I can't remember him scoring once off the rush this year with a little deke and a quick release.

This article, to me, could serve as a basis for Stammer to evolve his game as well:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=664815

Quote:
The problem is Ovechkin eventually became predictable and far easier to shut down. Opposing defensemen knew he wasn't going to give the puck up when he got it on the left wall, but they also knew that if he came with speed, they became vulnerable, so they started to cut him off at the pass, so to speak.

They stopped letting Ovechkin come at them with speed by playing higher in the zone. It prevented him from generating enough power to drive to the net.
Quote:
"Now you have Alex Ovechkin and you don't know where he's coming from and it's not one speed, not that one power move," Button said. "I see Alex being prolific from all over the ice now."

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04-09-2013, 11:48 AM
  #208
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I'm not 100% sold on Ovi's resurgence, personally. Right now he's feasting off of the PP. That's fine and all, and in fact important, but I don't think he's been noticeably better all around. I wouldn't be shocked if he fell off again.

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04-09-2013, 01:14 PM
  #209
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Stamkos isn't a center in the traditional sense. Nothing he does generates offensive zone time (outside of his vastly improved F/O%).

That's one thing he could focus on more imo. Using his body to shield the puck better. He relies on his "wingers" to generate offensive chances far too often. But overall, the biggest improvement to his game will come in the D-Zone. If he were better at that, he'd have more puck possession by default.

So, he's loafed 3/4 of this year in his own end, loafed half the season in the faceoff dot and could stand to improve with his back to the net in the Offensive Zone. If he were perfect, he'd have nothing to work on. Him losing the Rocket and potentially the Art Ross when both were very attainable should be plenty of motivation going forward.

I hope Ovi is back. He's probably watched plenty of tape of Stamkos. If Ovi can incorporate the Rink Ninja Attributes of Stamkos, I'd say he's back. He still blows nuts in his own end and in the NZ though.

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04-09-2013, 01:32 PM
  #210
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Ya know, the one thing I think Stamkos could work on that would help the team the most... his work along the boards. He has to be our worst guy on the boards. He's good at controlling the puck when he tries, it's just not how he's going to score and he plays on a line with players that are better at it, so he let's them do it. On the other hand, he is the worst guy on the team along the boards. Improve that, that improves our control time and zone time.

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04-09-2013, 01:48 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
Ya know, the one thing I think Stamkos could work on that would help the team the most... his work along the boards. He has to be our worst guy on the boards. He's good at controlling the puck when he tries, it's just not how he's going to score and he plays on a line with players that are better at it, so he let's them do it. On the other hand, he is the worst guy on the team along the boards. Improve that, that improves our control time and zone time.
Stamkos gets pinned to the boards ridiculously easy. He looks incredibly weak there.

I think he might have some nagging injury that he's just playing through, he's just not engaging 100% there imo.

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04-09-2013, 02:09 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
I think he might have some nagging injury that he's just playing through, he's just not engaging 100% there imo.
That would be my guess as well

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04-09-2013, 02:23 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
I'm not 100% sold on Ovi's resurgence, personally. Right now he's feasting off of the PP. That's fine and all, and in fact important, but I don't think he's been noticeably better all around. I wouldn't be shocked if he fell off again.
I'm not sold on Ovi either, but the point about switching gears in the NZ and O-zone are noteworthy. Stamkos seems to go at one speed and never creates scoring opportunities for himself when skating with the puck or joining the rush. He's good at finding space once we've established positioning in the o-zone, but his production on the rush has significantly dropped off this season.

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04-09-2013, 02:25 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
Ya know, the one thing I think Stamkos could work on that would help the team the most... his work along the boards. He has to be our worst guy on the boards. He's good at controlling the puck when he tries, it's just not how he's going to score and he plays on a line with players that are better at it, so he let's them do it. On the other hand, he is the worst guy on the team along the boards. Improve that, that improves our control time and zone time.
I think it would help if he developed his play down low and focused on his balance and body control in order to protect the puck and try to walk out from the corners and create scoring chances, opposed to being pinned against the boards as you stated.

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04-09-2013, 02:31 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
We don't need a 4-5 defender. If we need anything it's a 2-3 defender.

And they have 3M in cap space if they want it in Ohlund. 4.5M more in Malone.

As for the future, a normal buyout is still possible in his later years when it won't cost near as much on the cap to do so.
Can't buy him out though. Oh, and we do need a 4 defender, or a 3 with that saved money. Vinny just isn't worth an 8M cap hit anymore and its senseless to keep it around for that long.

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04-10-2013, 10:32 AM
  #216
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You know, i've been thinking and trying to scour some rosters for some potential buy-low candidates and I found one that i'd like, and another that isn't a buy-low but could be productive for less than Vinnys cost.

First buy low thought is Ian Cole. With Redden and JayBo he doesn't seem to see the ice a lot, but was a great defender for Team USA and has looked decent when playing for the Blues, but seems to play a little scared of making a mistake. I still think he has the chops to be a top four defender and maybe for a midrange prospect or something we could pry him away.

As for the other filling the 2C slot and all the turmoil the team has, Paul Stastny might be available and I think would be a solid fit with some more shoot-first players like Purcell and maybe a Panik type or something.

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04-10-2013, 10:39 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
You know, i've been thinking and trying to scour some rosters for some potential buy-low candidates and I found one that i'd like, and another that isn't a buy-low but could be productive for less than Vinnys cost.

First buy low thought is Ian Cole. With Redden and JayBo he doesn't seem to see the ice a lot, but was a great defender for Team USA and has looked decent when playing for the Blues, but seems to play a little scared of making a mistake. I still think he has the chops to be a top four defender and maybe for a midrange prospect or something we could pry him away.

As for the other filling the 2C slot and all the turmoil the team has, Paul Stastny might be available and I think would be a solid fit with some more shoot-first players like Purcell and maybe a Panik type or something.
Depending on what Avs management is doing with ROR, Statsny could be available. If ROR is going to be shipped out, they can't trade Statsny.

And Avs have history of shipping out players that play hardball against Avs hardballing. Well not similar to ROR but we'll see.

But Avs would want D coming back. The list of legit top4 Dman on Avs:

Erik Johnson.

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04-10-2013, 10:46 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
You know, i've been thinking and trying to scour some rosters for some potential buy-low candidates and I found one that i'd like, and another that isn't a buy-low but could be productive for less than Vinnys cost.

First buy low thought is Ian Cole. With Redden and JayBo he doesn't seem to see the ice a lot, but was a great defender for Team USA and has looked decent when playing for the Blues, but seems to play a little scared of making a mistake. I still think he has the chops to be a top four defender and maybe for a midrange prospect or something we could pry him away.

As for the other filling the 2C slot and all the turmoil the team has, Paul Stastny might be available and I think would be a solid fit with some more shoot-first players like Purcell and maybe a Panik type or something.
You mean Stastny as a candidate in the event Vinny gets bought out? Because, sure the term on Stastny is better, but he's making $6.6m per - so it only buys us about 1 million for a pretty severe downgrade.

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04-10-2013, 10:48 AM
  #219
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Hes pretty far from a pretty severe downgrade, has one of the worst coaches in the league, and can stay healthy/isn't signed for another decade.

I think there is room to grow there, ala Voracek in PHI.

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04-10-2013, 10:54 AM
  #220
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As for the other filling the 2C slot and all the turmoil the team has, Paul Stastny might be available and I think would be a solid fit with some more shoot-first players like Purcell and maybe a Panik type or something.
Purcell shoot first???

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04-10-2013, 10:55 AM
  #221
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Hes pretty far from a pretty severe downgrade, has one of the worst coaches in the league, and can stay healthy/isn't signed for another decade.

I think there is room to grow there, ala Voracek in PHI.
Don't get me wrong, I like Stas a lot from his time with Team USA and playing college hockey, but I guess I'm still in the camp that some big-time replacement would have to be in ready to justify giving Vinny the amnesty boot. Like drafting Nate MacKinnon.

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04-10-2013, 11:19 AM
  #222
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Purcell shoot first???
Yeah, I'm a little lost on that one..

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04-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  #223
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Purcell shoot first???
He can be, with his release and all.

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04-10-2013, 03:05 PM
  #224
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D-trade
I like the Ian Cole idea. After their TDL deals, the Blues certainly a surplus at Defense moving forward. Not sure how well we match up as far as being able to meet their needs, but, there are a couple of defensemen on that team I wouldn't be against trading for.

The Coyotes are another team with some targets of interest and a surplus at the position. I think we have the ability to satisfy their needs better than the Blues.

Lecavalier
If Lecavalier were to be bought out, it would be after next year at the deadline for amnesty buyouts. If they keep him for 3 more years the contract reaches the downturn point (due $6.5M over the final 3) where a regular buyout would only be costly in its cap hit.

I just don't see spending $2 for every $1 Vinny is still owed as being at all realistic from a business standpoint - Vinik's deep pockets can't rationalize $90M for $7.27M/6in cap space even if they can easily afford it. Its too much risk, not enough reward that what you replace Vinny's capspace with doesn't even perform up to a level of what you expect to get out of Vinny the rest of the way. Adding in all the non-business angles...I expect him back next year, and likely two or three more after that...at the least.


Stamkos BFF

NEED MOAR DOWNIE! - "ancient chinese secret,huh?"

We need a bulldog on that top line. It might be Killorn, but I'd rather not force it upon him so soon when his development to this point has been so fluid. Pouliot has been nice, but seems more effective in a secondary 2nd/3rd line role. Malone 'should' fit there, but has pretty clearly demonstrated over his tenure here that he doesn't have the chemistry. Aforementioned Lecavalier is most useful to the team at center. Any other top 6 options currently on the team don't bring the requisite muscle.

What to do?

Not sure what sort of solution Yzerman will come up with. Sticking with what we've got seems unlikely. The dollars a top line winger commands certainly make the idea a luxury we likely can no longer afford, given other needs. You could also argue that the depth of young wingers necessitates us trying them all there until someone finally clicks. I'm curious how this quiet issue plays out over the offseason, how its addressed - whether through trade, free agency, or from within.

On the eternally optimistic side, Downie himself is UFA after next year...one can only hope.

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04-10-2013, 03:45 PM
  #225
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D-trade
I like the Ian Cole idea. After their TDL deals, the Blues certainly a surplus at Defense moving forward. Not sure how well we match up as far as being able to meet their needs, but, there are a couple of defensemen on that team I wouldn't be against trading for.

The Coyotes are another team with some targets of interest and a surplus at the position. I think we have the ability to satisfy their needs better than the Blues.
I want a #1/#2 guy, I think Salo is more of a #3 and Brewer is more of a #5. We have the resources to go get a #1 guy, starting with our 1st round pick.

Hell, I'd move mountains to get Jones if they think he could step in this year and play top 4 minutes, pray for a small learning curve. Probably a bit of a stretch, but there is your physical top pairing guy to combine with Hedman for the next decade.

Trade some of that depth for the necessary pieces on defense.

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