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Old
04-09-2013, 11:34 AM
  #1
S E P H
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Front Office Crew Opinion

I see a lot of you guys blaming the whole front office as a whole for this situation and even though I love Sherman I admit he has made one or two errors for dealing with this team and the whole ROR fisco was completely retarded and unnecessary, but for the most part I like the direction he is taking this club.

I also dislike Lacroix's secret agenda and not openly talking about the rebuild and all that, but the guy built two Stanley Cup teams and knows how to win, I don't get all the hate from him.

I get a feeling a lot of you guys are going ADD and ADHD on the situation than having a bit of patience, but if I was going to blame someone I think Kroenke deserves majority of it. But he said he wanted to start a rebuild in 2009 and they do not look pretty, so you think we are looking at the climax of the rebuild? Should we just have more patience on the situation and consider that under a new coach we could be a 5th to 8th seed next year?

I didn't make this thread because I think majority of you are wrong, I just want know why you think this certain way? Because I get the feeling under a new coach majority of all these "alleged problems" we're dealing with could be easily fixed.

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04-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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Fire Sacco!

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04-09-2013, 11:40 AM
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I've always stuck to the general rule that you fire the coach before you fire the GM... the issue with that happens when you never fire the coach. If Sacco isn't gone this summer then management is sleeping on the job and deserves to be fired as well. So IMO if Sherman is fired I think there will be cause, if he stays I won't mind.

I think most people just have a problem with the secret nature of the Avs. Most organizations have changed with the times and been more accessible as a part of that adaptation. The Avs are not one of those teams. That could be good or bad, but when things are going bad people tend to take that lack of accessibility as a lack of caring for the fanbase.

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04-09-2013, 11:40 AM
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I like what he has done trade wise and draft wise and I like the direction the club is going, however, I disagree with the O'Reilly holdout situation and I still don't understand how he hasn't told Sacco to hit the road.

Edit: And the whole organization secret keeping is absurd.

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04-09-2013, 11:43 AM
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Lacroix has hired the last two coaches and GMs and all have been massive failures. He needs to go.

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04-09-2013, 11:45 AM
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The only thing that Kroenke would be guilty of is keeping Lacroix. So if you think Lacroix isn't the issue, then Kroenke isn't either. The coaching issue is a huge issue that most have with Lacroix. Lacroix will not hire the best available coach, he hires people he knows. Sherman, IMO makes absolutely no hockey decisions. I've stated my opinion a bunch of times, but I think Sherman was originally brought in to be Roy's assistant and when that fell through they just said screw it, we will hire him anyways. I think the front office has done a nice job on the ice, getting good young players where we had deficiencies. But they have done a horrible job of the development side of things. They are not hiring the best qualified people, and we are seeing the results. They NEED to hire a good coach and teacher, with discipline who commands respect. The next coach is a huge step for this franchise. You mess this one up and you may burn bridges with Duchene, EJ, Varly, and ROR. FO better get their **** together.

I think Lacroix being at the last game is a good sign. They are re-evaluating this team and I am assuming there will be some changes made.

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04-09-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
Lacroix has hired the last two coaches and GMs and all have been massive failures. He needs to go.
Seconded.

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04-09-2013, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
I see a lot of you guys blaming the whole front office as a whole for this situation and even though I love Sherman I admit he has made one or two errors for dealing with this team and the whole ROR fisco was completely retarded and unnecessary, but for the most part I like the direction he is taking this club.

I also dislike Lacroix's secret agenda and not openly talking about the rebuild and all that, but the guy built two Stanley Cup teams and knows how to win, I don't get all the hate from him.

I get a feeling a lot of you guys are going ADD and ADHD on the situation than having a bit of patience, but if I was going to blame someone I think Kroenke deserves majority of it. But he said he wanted to start a rebuild in 2009 and they do not look pretty, so you think we are looking at the climax of the rebuild? Should we just have more patience on the situation and consider that under a new coach we could be a 5th to 8th seed next year?

I didn't make this thread because I think majority of you are wrong, I just want know why you think this certain way? Because I get the feeling under a new coach majority of all these "alleged problems" we're dealing with could be easily fixed.


Do I get a pass for already hating on them last year?
Ok I try to keep it short.

My opinion on Greg Sherman:
Can't stand him. I get furious when I listen to his rare interviews.
He does not strike me as a guy who has a clue. Probably a puppet of Lacroix who is fairly good with numbers. His trades are average-above average. Has guts. But never really gets good value (with a few exceptions).
He is absolutely to blame for all the contract disputes we had. Regardless of PL he IS in charge of those negotiations.
And between keeping Sacco for so long, and the handling of Anderson, ROR, Flash, Mueller,McClement and a few others I have lost every tiny bit of faith in him.
Needs to go. But we need a capable replacement first. No to Eric Lacroix or Roy or Sakic.

PL:
Dinosaur. Root of all "evil". Time has passed him by. Does not recognize the importance of coaching and has an ego the size of an elephant. Still believes that we are the premier organisation we once were and acts accordingly. Players probably hate him more than Sherman.
Sucks in the cap world. His "hiring inside the organisation" mantra is damaging to our team for a solid decade now. Completely blows (together with Sherm) at handling the fans/media. Very frugal. The only guy who maybe could stand up to Kroenke but believes that his way is the right way. Regardless of results.

Josh/Stan Kroenke:
The only good thing about them is that it is unlikely that they will ever move the Avs. That is it. Josh the defacto owner really does not give a damn about the Avs. I got ridiculed for stating this at the time and was told that they are merely waiting for the new CBA before they open up their pockets.

Look at Arsenal. They hate the Kroenkes. And they are nowhere near as in bad shape as we are.
We will never make a deficit. So if we want to spend to the cap, we better all go out and buy some new Avs stuff. If there is a Denver based billionaire out there who has a passion for hockey, I would not hesitate a MS in approving a sale (not that I get a vote ).
If they had any kind of clue they would have fired PL and his cronies a few years ago. But they don't care.
So I have to retract my statement about PL. The root of the evil would probably be Josh Kroenke who put every last bit of power into the hands of PL.

My response is longer than anticipated but that is basically the gist of my opinion. I left out Sacco because there is not much to be said about him anymore.

EDIT: My statement about believing that we are on Islanders level organisational wise somehow got lost in there. So yeah. We have a bottom 3 organisation on the ice (standing wise) but even more off the ice.


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04-09-2013, 12:00 PM
  #9
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It's so hard to evaluate because we as fans have access to so little information. We just see the tire marks on the road.

I think fans generally are way too happy to assign blame. Blame players for every goal allowed, blame coaches for every poor game, blame Sherman/Lacroix for every thing that's wrong with the team.

None of us here knows what Lacroix does or how he is. No one here knows what Sacco does or how he is. No one here knows what Sherman does or how he is.

There seems to be dysfunction on several levels in this organization and obviously changes have to be made. The results speak for themselves.

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04-09-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
Lacroix has hired the last two coaches and GMs and all have been massive failures. He needs to go.
Giguere was probably the worst GM in the history of GMs, and there is no excuse from hiring coaches within the organization, but he was always bad for having average to below average coaches except for Coach Q.

Though I still do not understand the Sherman hate. Thinking he is a puppet under Lacroix is just assumptions and not facts.

Also what about Lacroix's history throughout the 90s and early 2000s? Isn't it unfair to want a guy who knows how to build Cup winning teams fired? And do you guys want him fired just because of his view of hiring within the organization? Also consider about who might be replaced if we do fire Lacroix and the Kroenke's know nothing about hockey.

What I am trying to say is everyone deserves part of the blame, from the Front Office to the players to Kirk McLean and just not on one guy or group who are in centre figure positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
It's so hard to evaluate because we as fans have access to so little information. We just see the tire marks on the road.

I think fans generally are way too happy to assign blame. Blame players for every goal allowed, blame coaches for every poor game, blame Sherman/Lacroix for every thing that's wrong with the team.

None of us here knows what Lacroix does or how he is. No one here knows what Sacco does or how he is. No one here knows what Sherman does or how he is.

There seems to be dysfunction on several levels in this organization and obviously changes have to be made. The results speak for themselves.
What changes in what positions?

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04-09-2013, 12:09 PM
  #11
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I respect what PL did to build his two cup winners, but somewhere down the road when the game started to changed, he didn't change enough IMO. His strong arm negotiation tacticts have clearly become a problem over the years as well.

The major issue why people want to see PL gone is because of his incestuous coaching hires. After Crawford, all the coaches have been one of these, and I think all of them except for probably Q came dirt cheap, including Hartley who was the 4th cheapest coach int he league in 99-00 at $375K a year according to THN. After Harltey, he really seems to want his coaches to coach his way. He's as much a shadow head coach as a shadow GM IMO. That's why they're all newbies for the most part, and that's why the team and Q eventually "parted ways."

He also either underappreciates or relies too heavily upon certain types of players.

The most important one is two way players, especially 3rd liners. They're replaceable in his eyes, and if he has to trade them it's no big deal. They should take the money he offers and shut the **** up.

Replaceable in PL's eyes- Drury, O'Reilly, Nikolishin,
Replacements - MacLean, Shantz, Arnason

Another type of player he under values is pure role players that help with team chemistry, and leadership. You know the kind of thing that's been missing the last few years with a young team. They're immenintly replceable, and they are, but the team is never better off, and not for such silly reasons like they didn't take the first low ball deal you offered.

Replaceable role players - Hendricks, Lappy, Antti Laaksonen, Darby Hendrickson, Riku Hahl, Brad Richardson
Replaced with - Travis Brigley, Jim Cummins, Jordan Krestonovich, Wyatt Smith, TJ Hensick, David Koci, Chris Durno

Then there's his over valuing of certain #3-4 type D men, instead of putting a priority on bringing in good ones.

Relied too heavily on - Brett Clark, Martin Skoula, Patrice Brisebois

You may notice a theme here. He relies on more one dimensional offensive players, than more well rounded two way players, or character defensive role players. It's the same sickness that pushes him to make sure each coach he brings in, is playing this super up tempo offensive system, with little emphasis on defensive coverage, or neutral zone play. No reason this should clash with his unwillingness to bring in or keep more two way players.

We saw his classic MO almost play out with O'Reilly during negotiations, and perhaps still will next year when he can be traded, and we know that the coach and possibly GM could be replaced int he summer, so I think people are worried it will just be more of the same. A green GM, and a coach with little to no HC experience, and a decent record at such be damned.


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04-09-2013, 12:13 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
You may notice a theme here. He relies on more one dimensional offensive players, than more well rounded two way players, or character defensive role players. It's the same sickness that pushes him to make sure each coach he brings in, is playing this super up tempo offensive system, which little emphasis on defensive coverage, or neutral zone play. No reason this should clash with his unwillingness to bring in or keep more two way players.

We saw his classic MO almost play out with O'Reilly during negotiations, and perhaps still will next year when he can be traded, and we know that the coach and possibly GM could be replaced int he summer, so I think people are worried it will just be more of the same. A green GM, and a coach with little to no HC experience, and a decent record at such be damned.
Solid post, but to me that sounds more like GM Giguere's retardedness than PL because look at the players they are drafting now, look at the players they are trading for, look at the players they traded out (Stewart, Quincey), and so forth.

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04-09-2013, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
Lacroix has hired the last two coaches and GMs and all have been massive failures. He needs to go.
this is the severe truth of things.
he needs to go. we need to get away from that Avs way of BS and hire the best people.

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04-09-2013, 12:17 PM
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What changes in what positions?
I just said that we as fans haven't got any information. Most of the fan views of the people involved are wild guesses/fantasies about how Lacroix/Sherman are. I have no idea exactly what the problem is and even less how to fix it.

The standard solution is of course replacing people. Sacco should be gone, for obvious reasons. There should be no way he survives. Other than that I don't know. Sherman may be gone. Several players might be gone.

Add mainstream hockey media starting to carry stories about how badly Avs are run and there might be more pressure to do something. The Giguere comments are basically a tear gas grenade into the Avs bunker. Who knows what the fallout of being publicly embarrassed as an organization will be.

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04-09-2013, 12:23 PM
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Solid post, but to me that sounds more like GM Giguere's retardedness than PL because look at the players they are drafting now, look at the players they are trading for, look at the players they traded out (Stewart, Quincey), and so forth.
I think FG, and even more so Sherman and his team make the personel decisions. Maybe asking advice from PL. But PL's puts his "recipe" into the head of his GM's, and his priorities, and negotiation tactics as well. Especially in the first year or two of their tenure.

This is why we've seen a similar theme to personel decisions, up until recently with Sherman and Co, who have put more emphasis on grit. The same coaching preferences, and negotiation tactics remain though.

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04-09-2013, 12:25 PM
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Convince me that this doesn't belong in the "Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)" thread.

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04-09-2013, 12:26 PM
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Begins and end with Lacroix. Until hes gone I will have no faith in this organization going anymore but further down.

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04-09-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Convince me that this doesn't belong in the "Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)" thread.
This is a place where we can vent our frustration and have debates about our whole FO led by PL as opposed to the Sherman thread which should be there just for the things concerning Sherman and his record with Colorado.

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04-09-2013, 12:30 PM
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The Sherman thread is Sherman and Co.

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04-09-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Convince me that this doesn't belong in the "Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)" thread.
Because it is about the entire front office. Not about Sherman's record as GM.


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04-09-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
Lacroix has hired the last two coaches and GMs and all have been massive failures. He needs to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
It's so hard to evaluate because we as fans have access to so little information. We just see the tire marks on the road.

I think fans generally are way too happy to assign blame. Blame players for every goal allowed, blame coaches for every poor game, blame Sherman/Lacroix for every thing that's wrong with the team.

None of us here knows what Lacroix does or how he is. No one here knows what Sacco does or how he is. No one here knows what Sherman does or how he is.

There seems to be dysfunction on several levels in this organization and obviously changes have to be made. The results speak for themselves.
All of my opinions are based from the outside looking in, and yet IMO that is the 2nd biggest problem with this organization. There is ZERO transparency.

KSE do not seem to have the passion for Hockey that any fan would hope for, but I do not believe that they are indifferent to the Avs' success. They just do not seem as "hands on" as I would like to see.

Lacroix won without a salary cap, and was able to "load up" when the time was right. Its a different monster now IMO.
He is also like a part time CEO who just checks in every once in a while. That is no way to keep an accurate feel for his team, especially a young team. I am not saying he cannot still build a winner as the league is now, but I have my doubts.

Sherman, while not a "Hockey guy" has been fairly shrewd and also bold in his dealings, at times at the cost of alienating players, but overall, I think working under directives from above he has successfully built a solid core of talent for the Avs to have success in the future.

Sacco served his purpose, and was probably given a year too long to guide this team. With the uncertainty created by the lockout, I think he was extended merely for the stability factor. The chaos of a shortened season created a league where almost team had at least a slight hope of sneaking into the playoffs. By the time the Avs were clearly out of contention, the changing of a coach seemed too little too late.This condensed season also limited the time teams had to actually practice on ice, as opposed to trying to correct things in games and by film study. Sacco was not equipped to deal with this, and the team did not have enough talent and chemistry yet to overcome struggles in season (Chicago and Pittsburgh's streaks reflect this chemistry and talent advantage IMO). Sacco has lost the team and needs to be let go.

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04-09-2013, 12:39 PM
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Guys, if Kroenke fires Lacroix or Lacroix steps down, then Kroenke is going to have to hire a new president. I can't imagine Kroenke or his son are in a position to make that hire.

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04-09-2013, 12:43 PM
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Guys, if Kroenke fires Lacroix or Lacroix steps down, then Kroenke is going to have to hire a new president. I can't imagine Kroenke or his son are in a position to make that hire.
They might not be hockey guys, but they are businessmen. I suspect they know how to conduct interviews and select a capable president.

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04-09-2013, 12:44 PM
  #24
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I've been one of the leaders of the Fire Sacco bandwagon for going on 3 years now. His time came and went long long ago in my books. It started with bad personnel decisions from him, sitting guys on the wrong nights, putting together bad line groupings etc.

Since then, I've really seen that his coaching philosophy lacks a proper system where we can play defensive hockey if needed. If we don't score, we won't win. Successful teams aren't built like that.

Yeah, we made the playoffs once under his tenure, but that year Craig Anderson stood on his head for over half of his starts. We won games but weren't a good team.

He needs to go.


If he doesn't get let go, then I will start calling for the heads up upper-management. I give Sherman the benefit of the doubt, for now, considering some of the deals he's made. I still will support the Johnson trade, for now, at least until we see how Siemens/Rattie etc turn out.

I also support his deals in regards to Quincey for Downie and the Varlamov trades. Those have all been pretty good, in my books. With that being said, did he actually make those trades or is that Lacroix?

That's where the problem lies with upper management for me. It's hard to blame people when you don't know who should take the blame. The hidden agenda, cloak and dagger **** from this management staff is the real problem more than anything.

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04-09-2013, 12:48 PM
  #25
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I'm not even gonna pretend to know what goes on in that office. We know as close to zero as possible.

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