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04-09-2013, 04:06 AM
  #676
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceManCat View Post
My response was opinionated and not based on science, since you want a hard science response ill give you one "smart guy".
You cannopt apply this discussion in a scientific means.


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Originally Posted by IceManCat View Post
By your definition than no one deserves anything and we are just pieces of a random puzzle. Which in fact we are not. I sincerely believe logic and reasoning should become part of the curriculum in all colleges/universities worldwide.
Incorrect. The teams who deserve the highest picks in the draft are teams who finish at the bottom. There is a clear system in place to distribute the best talent yearly to these teams. It is that simple.

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Originally Posted by IceManCat View Post
Explain to me how an explanation of the lottery system and who gets to pick first has anything to do with what "you think" is the definition of deserve. Impartial static subjects being compared to opinionated responses are like comparing monkey personalities to used tires on the road. If your going to try and be "tough" with logic and reasoning at least use it correctly with proper context and analysis.
The 1st overall pick is given to the team with the worst record (Rather, they have the greatest chance of obtaining it). They were the worst, thus they are entitled to the greatest opportunity of picking first. Talent distrubtion is done on merit via this particular method.


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Originally Posted by IceManCat View Post
The word "deserve" itself is subjected to multiple points of view and has no proper grounds for absolute definition. Go back to school and learn your fallacies informal, formal, ad hominem , appeal to pity and so on and so forth. Your slippery slope response to what you conceive as "pity" is just that. Exaggerated like a Shakespearean play, perhaps some people here are not privy to proper analysis so they can't see the multiple errors in reasoning you just demonstrated. When we text our friends we don't sound like English professors, since you want to flaunt your sub-par "intellect" on a hockey board at least do it properly.
You've assigned the idea of deserving something from your point of view, with no objective grounds of why. Why do we deserve a superstar player anymore than Columbus or Montreal? Why are we entitled to this thing more than somebody else?

It's all very well spinning in circles calling one another Big brother contestants, but it's uninteresting and boring. If you want to take me to fallacy school, be my guest, but i am more interesting in trying to understand why you think we are entitled more than other set of fans.


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Originally Posted by IceManCat View Post
Who's to say that because we are in the same distribution system we don't "deserve" someone more than the other.
A distrubition system in this case simply ranks records. We have less points, we have a greater chance. If you want to start discussing random variable luck in the acquisition of those points and suggest we had greater bad variable luck (Our bad luck made us win?), go ahead. I can understand arguments for bad luck in situations where we are may have achieved more than we have in some specific team instances, but framining our discussion within the distrubition system ; the assignment of deserving or entitlement is simply and clear.


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How can you define deserve without knowledge of all impeding factors which would be impossible to do since it is impossible to know all factors being weighted? How can you determine that a teams previous sufferance has no correlation to a turn in luck. All I see in your post is self pity blah blah. There is no self pity and I am no crying Jane. Just stating that bad circumstances could merit us some good in the future which you have provided no counter argument against.
Well this is all very convuluted. Maybe you should state a hypothesis and wortk from there, rather than jumbling up words.

Since you are trying to say that Florida has bad luck, thus we deserve more, here we go :

Florida has had ample opportunities to select exceptional players. We've had multiple top ten picks. Secondly, since the distrubtion of players is allocated through the draft, within reasonable assumptions that your team has some picks over that time frame and that throughout the draft, it is possible to draft good/great/whatever players since future success does not correlate exactly with draft ranking, we've had many opportunities to select a great player. Some teams in the NHL are led by excellent players drafted late, some teams are led by NHL superstars drafted in the Top 10. We've had opportunities at both sources. There may be some bad luck in there (I.e picking 3rd in 2010) but all teams will encounter similar experiences (Chicago 3rd in 2004).

So, to say Florida deserves a superstar player anymore than any other team is ludicrious.

Secondly, one poster said our fans were more loyal. How? Columbus fans still support their team. Montreal fans theirs. Detroit Red Wings fans too. All through a ten yer period for example. Just because my team sucked through their own inefficiencies doesn't make me a better, more loyal fan whom is entitled to see success. What kind of useless self entitlement is that? Measuring loyality is veyr difficult, and declarations of this loyalty makes us no better than the whining traditionalists who say our franchise should be in Canada.

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Old
04-09-2013, 06:13 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Rick Rypien Farts View Post
Holy cow is Colorado awful. They deserve the number one overall. Jk. The standings will determine the probability of chance and the lottery will determine the outcome of the draft order.

For the time being, we're back in 29th with a game up on Calgary. A couple games this week including a roadie in Winnipeg.. Tough challenge!! I like our chances!!


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04-09-2013, 08:25 AM
  #678
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Johnathan drouin will be in a panthers uniform after selecting 3rd overall, mackinnon will be a flame, and jones an av.

Thats how i think it will go.

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04-09-2013, 08:30 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 View Post
Johnathan drouin will be in a panthers uniform after selecting 3rd overall, mackinnon will be a flame, and jones an av.

Thats how i think it will go.
Meh, I would rather have Barkov at that point but I guess I would be ok if we select Drouin 3rd. (and Mac and Jones are gone)

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04-09-2013, 08:39 AM
  #680
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Meh, I would rather have Barkov at that point but I guess I would be ok if we select Drouin 3rd. (and Mac and Jones are gone)
From what I have been reading many people are much more impressed with drouin than with mackinnon.

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04-09-2013, 09:04 AM
  #681
Don Tibbles
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Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 View Post
Johnathan drouin will be in a panthers uniform after selecting 3rd overall, mackinnon will be a flame, and jones an av.

Thats how i think it will go.
I think you're right.

But remember Feaster has been somewhat unpredictable in recent drafts. All we know are facts. The biggest fact for the Flames is they traded their franchise captain and their best d-man. Who's in line to replace them? Do they have prospects of that caliber in their system?

Between the two Q stars, I say he will go MacKinnon because he thinks Mac has the better potential to become a franchise player.


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04-09-2013, 10:13 AM
  #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Rypien Farts View Post
I think you're right.

But remember Feaster has been somewhat unpredictable in recent drafts. All we know are facts. The biggest fact for the Flames is they traded their franchise captain and their best d-man. Who's in line to replace them? Do they have prospects of that caliber in their system?

Between the two Q stars, I say he will go MacKinnon because he thinks Mac has the better potential to become a franchise player.
Calgary has nothing on defense in the pipeline. Wideman is their #1 d-man right now too so that tells you something about their situation.

They have some solid LW prospects though in Baertschi & Gaudreau, Baertschi is now in the NHL. They have depth at wing too having signed Hudler in the offseason to go with Tanguay & Cammalleri, though not sure if Hudler has been playing center for them or not. Doesnt seem like wing will be a priority with their pick.

Center-wise they have depth type guys but no one I would say is a potential top line guy. Backlund, Horak, Reinhart & down the road Jankowski are what they have for young players/prospects at center. The first 3 of those guys are playing for the Flames now but I have no idea how they have played.

Personally I think they're more desparate on defense than center. Yeah they definitely could use a top line center too. But they have some guys that could at least provide depth and maybe Backlund turns out to be like a Weiss type of center. If I'm Calgary, I would go hard after Jones but Feaster is unpredictable as you said and who knows.

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04-09-2013, 10:35 AM
  #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
You cannopt apply this discussion in a scientific means.
Wrong, you can apply everything that contains reasoning or lack thereof into scientific means.


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Incorrect. The teams who deserve the highest picks in the draft are teams who finish at the bottom. There is a clear system in place to distribute the best talent yearly to these teams. It is that simple.
I know this why are you bringing it up? What does this have to do with anything? Are you going to explain what offside and icing is next?
Do you have any more hockey facts for me?


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
The 1st overall pick is given to the team with the worst record (Rather, they have the greatest chance of obtaining it). They were the worst, thus they are entitled to the greatest opportunity of picking first. Talent distrubtion is done on merit via this particular method.
See above^


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
You've assigned the idea of deserving something from your point of view, with no objective grounds of why. Why do we deserve a superstar player anymore than Columbus or Montreal? Why are we entitled to this thing more than somebody else?

I never said we needed a superstar anymore than the other teams, I am not in favor of Mackinnon/Drouin unlike 99% of our board. I like Seth Jones first and Barkov second. With that said we need a superstar, the fans should have one like the many other franchises. As to what level we need/deserve/want vs. other fan bases that is not possible to determine since we can't measure that. In saying we deserve one, a person is more akin to opinion and fantasy talk then a truthful scientific statement. Since we can't measure what we deserve, this should have already been common knowledge not turned into a rocket science false analysis. If I said I am a great fighter, I should be Batman / Spiderman from here on out. Would you sit there and break apart how Batman is not real and Spiderman can't really climb walls? No, it is more akin to opinion and general talk.


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
It's all very well spinning in circles calling one another Big brother contestants, but it's uninteresting and boring. If you want to take me to fallacy school, be my guest, but i am more interesting in trying to understand why you think we are entitled more than other set of fans.
Yes especially when its riddled with mistakes. And once again Straw man fallacy here.


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
A distrubition system in this case simply ranks records. We have less points, we have a greater chance. If you want to start discussing random variable luck in the acquisition of those points and suggest we had greater bad variable luck (Our bad luck made us win?), go ahead. I can understand arguments for bad luck in situations where we are may have achieved more than we have in some specific team instances, but framining our discussion within the distrubition system ; the assignment of deserving or entitlement is simply and clear.
We cannot prove luck either if it exists. If a random distribution curve occurs as necessary for "statistical truth" then in fact we are no more deserving/needing/wanting than any other team. But if our previous bad luck is counted as an outlier(previous losing history) than by those circumstances we would be deserving/needing/wanting of that superstar. As for real world terms there is NOTHING to suggest an outlier is present at the time of the lottery or when the team draft order is being selected and chosen. On the other hand for our little discussion; a statistical outlier CAN in fact be used correctly for argument when speaking in terms of deserving and wanting a superstar, since they cannot be proven for or against. Both can be subjects of the definition at various and continuous levels as they are here, with the details of losing being part of the argument as long as they are factual details. All the teams in the top with the exception of Calgary and us have a superstar player, actually multiple superstar players on their team, an argument of previous lack of success can surely be made with sound reason for the need of a superstar. You resort to saying other teams need a superstar also, since they don't deserve one, we don't either. This is another fallacy in your argument and an incorrect truth being passed as proper.


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Well this is all very convuluted. Maybe you should state a hypothesis and wortk from there, rather than jumbling up words.
I am sorry for your dyslexia. There is no hypothesis in scientific reasoning. Only universals and particulars.

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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Since you are trying to say that Florida has bad luck, thus we deserve more, here we go :
Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Florida has had ample opportunities to select exceptional players. We've had multiple top ten picks. Secondly, since the distrubtion of players is allocated through the draft, within reasonable assumptions that your team has some picks over that time frame and that throughout the draft, it is possible to draft good/great/whatever players since future success does not correlate exactly with draft ranking, we've had many opportunities to select a great player. Some teams in the NHL are led by excellent players drafted late, some teams are led by NHL superstars drafted in the Top 10. We've had opportunities at both sources. There may be some bad luck in there (I.e picking 3rd in 2010) but all teams will encounter similar experiences (Chicago 3rd in 2004).
Chicago has won a cup and is a perennial contender. They had a long stretch of prospects that didn't work out just like we did (Daze,Ruutu, etc..). This still does not mean that we are more or less deserving. Whether the player is drafted late or early does not matter? They are still a superstar and the argument still stands.


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
So, to say Florida deserves a superstar player anymore than any other team is ludicrious.
No one said MORE, you did. Red Herring extravaganza


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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Secondly, one poster said our fans were more loyal. How? Columbus fans still support their team. Montreal fans theirs. Detroit Red Wings fans too. All through a ten yer period for example. Just because my team sucked through their own inefficiencies doesn't make me a better, more loyal fan whom is entitled to see success. What kind of useless self entitlement is that? Measuring loyality is veyr difficult, and declarations of this loyalty makes us no better than the whining traditionalists who say our franchise should be in Canada.
Measuring loyalty is impossible. But I'll say this, when Chicago went through their crappy team phase. You couldn't give away tickets to a Blackhawks game. When Pittsburgh went through the same phase, you couldn't give away tickets there either. When the Panthers sucked(as they do now) fans always came to support them despite not having a superstar like Columbus.Did we sell out, no; but we were not an empty barnyard like they were. I still believe we have the best fans. Can I prove that, no. Just like you can't prove a plethora of other scientific theories and religious beliefs, the list goes on.

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Old
04-09-2013, 10:44 AM
  #684
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From what I have been reading many people are much more impressed with drouin than with mackinnon.
That's fine. But for me personally I would prefer MacKinnon over Drouin. But everyone has their own opinion.

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04-09-2013, 10:46 AM
  #685
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That's fine. But for me personally I would prefer MacKinnon over Drouin. But everyone have their own opinion.
Drouin seems to similiar to Huberdeau, I would rather have any of the other forwards Lindholm, Barkov etc

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04-09-2013, 10:59 AM
  #686
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We will get a very high quality prospect. I'm not worried at all. We may not get one of the guys we've been talking about all season but this is a great draft and when you look at drafts historically, there's a very big element of randomness to it. Scouting is a very inexact science.

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04-09-2013, 11:09 AM
  #687
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the more i read about monahan the more i want him. sometimes it's a real pity drafting super high because the player you want is "too late" in the draft.

if we get monahan and he becomes the toews that people talk about i'd be so happy. even if he got less upside talentwise, he apparently is a beast in his overall game

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04-09-2013, 12:22 PM
  #688
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Measuring loyalty is impossible. But I'll say this, when Chicago went through their crappy team phase. You couldn't give away tickets to a Blackhawks game. When Pittsburgh went through the same phase, you couldn't give away tickets there either. When the Panthers sucked(as they do now) fans always came to support them despite not having a superstar like Columbus.Did we sell out, no; but we were not an empty barnyard like they were. I still believe we have the best fans. Can I prove that, no. Just like you can't prove a plethora of other scientific theories and religious beliefs, the list goes on.
I think what you are trying to say is that Florida Panther fans have far more loyalty than the stereotypical South Florida sports fan. The "Florida Panther fans are fickle" idea is further reinforced by the parochialism of hockey fans in traditional markets.

Nearly every time I tell someone I'm a Florida Panther fan they say:

Response 1: "I didn't know they had a team."

The Subtext: None.
The Fallacy: None. Its just genuine ignorance, which is acceptable.

Response 2:"I've never seen a Florida Panther fan."

The Subtext: The team doesn't have a lot of fans so the fans must not be passionate.

The Fallacy: Just because you are unaware of something, it doesn't mean its inconsequential. If you didn't know what bacon was and then became suddenly aware of it, it would still taste just as amazing if you ate bacon since the day you were born.

Response 3:"It seems like they wouldn't be good at hockey"

The Subtext: Florida is warm. There is no ice there. Therefore no good hockey players can come from Florida and the NHL team will be bad.

The Fallacy: Our players are from Canada, Europe, Northern US just like every NHL team.

I don't know how many Florida Panther fans there are or how to delineate which ones are "hardcore" and which ones are "casual" but we exist and do matter within the hockey community just as much as any Canadien/Maple Leaf/Bruins/etc fan. I don't know what type of properties a fanbase has to have for a team to be as highly regard as The Toronto Maple Leafs in terms of business investment....or what type of history a team has to possess to be as culturally relevant as the Canadiens, but I don't really give a **** about trying to be them. We need to be us.

I'm from Cooper City, FL. I'm a Florida Panther fan. I would have it no other way.


Last edited by Haj: 04-09-2013 at 12:30 PM.
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04-09-2013, 12:36 PM
  #689
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Sucks when you come into the thread hoping for information on prospects and instead the majority of posts from the last two days are filled bunch of ******** arguing.

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04-09-2013, 12:42 PM
  #690
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Sucks when you come into the thread hoping for information on prospects and instead the majority of posts from the last two days are filled bunch of ******** arguing.
Lol

-ghoste

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04-09-2013, 01:30 PM
  #691
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the more i read about monahan the more i want him. sometimes it's a real pity drafting super high because the player you want is "too late" in the draft.

if we get monahan and he becomes the toews that people talk about i'd be so happy. even if he got less upside talentwise, he apparently is a beast in his overall game
I'm kind of feeling the same way. I've been reading up on him, watching some videos and interviews. I'm really liking his maturity intelligence, and the way he plays. Seems like a gritty skilled player which I really like and think this team needs desperately.

I want us to be a team that competes and plays hard, those are the kind of players I want.

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04-09-2013, 01:41 PM
  #692
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I'm impressed with the Canes tanking. I just think they have horrible goaltending, but should be able to win some games sooner or later when you got the Staal brothers and Semin.

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04-09-2013, 01:56 PM
  #693
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I'm kind of feeling the same way. I've been reading up on him, watching some videos and interviews. I'm really liking his maturity intelligence, and the way he plays. Seems like a gritty skilled player which I really like and think this team needs desperately.

I want us to be a team that competes and plays hard, those are the kind of players I want.
toews drafted before bäckström was quite odd IIRC (i wasn't super into the draft etc back then), but monahan seem to be the prototype toews player, big, gritty, heart and leader. i think those are attributes that DT values very high and wins games.

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04-09-2013, 03:06 PM
  #694
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Drouin seems to similiar to Huberdeau, I would rather have any of the other forwards Lindholm, Barkov etc
Mac doesnt sound like a Huberdeau to me, he is more of a scorer than Huberdeau. The combination of Huberdeau and Mac would give us a sick top line for years to come.

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04-09-2013, 03:20 PM
  #695
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toews drafted before bäckström was quite odd IIRC (i wasn't super into the draft etc back then), but monahan seem to be the prototype toews player, big, gritty, heart and leader. i think those are attributes that DT values very high and wins games.
Toews was ranked ahead of Backstrom for the majority of the year if i recall.

Up until the last 2 years, Backstrom was better than Toews. I wouldn't say Lindholm is stylistically the same as Backstrom, but he has greater offensive abilities i think. Conversely, as you said, Monahan seems like a player you want in all situations. I think it comes down to how big will the difference between the two will b be scoring wise and does the difference merit one over the other.

I'd take Barkov over either because i think he has what Monahan has, but he's a better offensive player in the long-run. Monahan versus Lindholm is close. I haven't seen enough of Monahan to be truely fair, however.

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04-09-2013, 03:50 PM
  #696
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Sucks when you come into the thread hoping for information on prospects and instead the majority of posts from the last two days are filled bunch of ******** arguing.
I just skip over it.

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04-09-2013, 03:56 PM
  #697
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From the scouting reports i've read at the prospects form, Forsberg is much more 'phyiscal' than Monahan. The swede posters call him a forsberg 'lite' (stress the word lite) because of how well he can protect the puck and take it to the net. Monahan will never be a guy to throw a big hit, much like toews. His speed and goal scoring ability aren't close to what Toews was/is.

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04-09-2013, 03:59 PM
  #698
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I'm kind of feeling the same way. I've been reading up on him, watching some videos and interviews. I'm really liking his maturity intelligence, and the way he plays. Seems like a gritty skilled player which I really like and think this team needs desperately.

I want us to be a team that competes and plays hard, those are the kind of players I want.
Yeah I have to do more of what you did and read up on him watch videos and interviews. But if he is, as most people say, like Toews, 100% yes (after the top two of course).

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04-09-2013, 04:11 PM
  #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
I'd take Barkov over either because i think he has what Monahan has, but he's a better offensive player in the long-run. Monahan versus Lindholm is close. I haven't seen enough of Monahan to be truely fair, however.
Im not sure about taking Barkov over Monahan. Barkov needs to work on his skating quite a bit before he's truly NHL ready. I like Monahan's skating a lot as well so that kinda differentiates them in my book. Yes Barkov's potential is maybe higher on offense than Monahan but I don't feel there is that big of a drop off in overall player.

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04-09-2013, 04:32 PM
  #700
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Toews was ranked ahead of Backstrom for the majority of the year if i recall.

Up until the last 2 years, Backstrom was better than Toews. I wouldn't say Lindholm is stylistically the same as Backstrom, but he has greater offensive abilities i think. Conversely, as you said, Monahan seems like a player you want in all situations. I think it comes down to how big will the difference between the two will b be scoring wise and does the difference merit one over the other.

I'd take Barkov over either because i think he has what Monahan has, but he's a better offensive player in the long-run. Monahan versus Lindholm is close. I haven't seen enough of Monahan to be truely fair, however.
greater offensive upside than bäckström? does that mean he got 100+p potential?

i do think that the north american skaters are overall better leaders and that their grit involves more than using his stick to fight people.

i do in general dont like swedish players, because their lack of physicality, but premiere scorers are worth a lot.

i need to look more into monahan though. thx for the info

florida pwnthers is online now  
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