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Wild gets Jason Pominville, '14 4th for Larsson, Hackett 13' 1st + '14 2nd Part 2

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04-09-2013, 01:43 PM
  #426
nickschultzfan
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I still think we gave up the wrong assets. While we have a lot of prospects, we don't have a lot of good center prospects.
Kind of agreed. I love that we have Pomer. I think he'll be re-signed and be a huge player for us.

But kind of rather lose Granlund than Larsson at this point. Larsson is going to be that work-horse 2nd line center that Cup teams desperately want.

Totally ok with Hacket going; we still have two awesome goalie prospects.

The 1st and 2nd hurt, but that 2nd was totally thrown in because the Sabres took back part of Pomer's Cap hit. The deal was 1st + Larsson + Hackett, but the numbers didn't work, so we had to add a 2nd for cap space + a 4th coming back.

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04-09-2013, 01:47 PM
  #427
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Based on what Russo was saying, this team didn't view Larsson as a secon line center. He was the heir apparent to Brodziak (inference from what Russo said). If that's the case it would e easier to replace that skillset than Granlund's.

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04-09-2013, 02:02 PM
  #428
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If they were to move Granlund over Larsson, the only real projectable scorer that they would have is Zucker. While I've stated my admiration around here up and down for Zucker's game for years now, that's a lot of eggs in one basket.

Of course you also can take that into the realm of reasonable aim in relation to absolute ceiling discussion, but it still should hold some weight. The Wild have a lot of promising prospects but very few look to have an it factor to their games. Many just look like strong, capable NHL players for years; Larsson fits into that role. Granlund, Brodin, Zucker, and perhaps even Dumba have the tools to go above and beyond if all goes well.

Losing Larsson has a pretty good chance to look like a mistake when he's a team's glue guy playing in all situations years down the line. Part with Granlund (or Zucker/Dumba) and I think it's one of those types of situations where a fan base is left wondering just what in the hell happened.

It's the risk teams take when trading in hockey (as well as baseball) with completely unproven talent. As far as this actual NHL team is concerned, they just got a large boost in adding a legit first line player without parting with anything on roster. I'm completely fine moving every asset that moved in this deal. I do think it was absolutely a bit too much to move this early in the process and for the position, but they targeted the right sort of player if that was the goal. I would have looked at the back end but, if any of those players were out there, it's likely completely reasonable that they'd be looking for more proven (and ready) talent.

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04-09-2013, 03:09 PM
  #429
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Well reasoned TP

Thanks for the post.

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04-09-2013, 03:23 PM
  #430
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I understand losing Larsson hurt. But saying you'd add Granlund to that trade rather then Larsson is ridiculous.

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04-09-2013, 04:24 PM
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I understand losing Larsson hurt. But saying you'd add Granlund to that trade rather then Larsson is ridiculous.
If Granlund was in the trade, the other variables would change.

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04-09-2013, 04:26 PM
  #432
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If Granlund was in the trade, the other variables would change.
I would rather lose Larsson than Granlund anyways.

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04-09-2013, 04:28 PM
  #433
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If Granlund was in the trade, the other variables would change.
No way of knowing that for certain.

Scouts/GMs view proven/unproven differently than fans. We all see where Granlund and Larsson appear in relation to each other as prospects. The former sees them all in the same unproven tier with minimal separation due to that fact.

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04-09-2013, 04:34 PM
  #434
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I can't imagine Wild would add much if anything to Granlund if he were traded for Pominville.

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04-09-2013, 04:43 PM
  #435
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Regardless of what the trade would have ended up being is Granlund was involved is moot. The initial post to which I was replying "I would rather trade Granlund then Larson" is absolutely ignorant.

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04-09-2013, 04:45 PM
  #436
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Too often it seems people make shock statements looking for a reaction more then starting a serious conversation.

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04-09-2013, 04:54 PM
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Too often it seems people make shock statements looking for a reaction more then starting a serious conversation.
Welcome to hfboards.

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04-09-2013, 05:14 PM
  #438
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In an ideal uncapped world
Correct. There's a reason you don't see any teams with full second lines making first-line money. You might see a player or two, but that's it.

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I'm no expert on the CBA, but I think it will be quite a while before the kids see the large money. They won't even hit RFA status for another three seasons. And with the cap starting to rise again the year after next, I don't think the cap situation will be all that dire.
If the young players are looking promising, big deals now happen immediately after their entry level deal based on what they've proven to that point. Nowadays the players have a total position of power, and you just can't have a total of 20-25 million locked up in anything but your first-line. If Granlund, Coyle, Zucker, etc. are truly first-line guys, we'll never have more than a short window of them being on undervalued contracts.

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I don't think anyone is denying we overpaid for Pominville, you don't just acquire a player like JP without paying a premium...But we were in a position to do so because we had enough assets were we could afford to overpay. It's not like we mortgaged the entire future of the Wild on this one deal.
That's a dangerous mentality. Paying too much is paying too much no matter how many assets you have to spend. Successful teams over the long-run know how to get good value on their assets to keep their net worth high. Just imagine it like the cash in your billfold. If you spend too much on one item, it may not hurt right away if you have plenty of cash. But if that horde dwindles, and it always does at some point in the sports world, it costs you the ability to buy something else or manage your assets to the best of your ability. It's always important to buy and sell wisely.

Brian Burke was a master of this and turned Toronto around because of it. If you look up and down that roster, there's only about a handful of players drafted by Toronto. The majority of roster players were via trades with a free agent or two thrown in. That's managing your assets and winning by it.

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I still think we gave up the wrong assets. While we have a lot of prospects, we don't have a lot of good center prospects.
Yep. Considering where this organization sits, I would have traded Coyle before Larsson. The Wild is painfully thin at center in both the NHL and now the prospect world. Bad idea to be short at center.

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04-09-2013, 05:21 PM
  #439
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Yep. Considering where this organization sits, I would have traded Coyle before Larsson. The Wild is painfully thin at center in both the NHL and now the prospect world. Bad idea to be short at center.

This is why your not an NHL GM. Coyle is a proven NHL forward and is a guarantee. We know his baseline already and he has crazy potential. Larsson was an unknown. Center or not the idea of trading Coyle before Larsson would be organizational suicide.

Larsson wasn't going to make this team for the next 2-3 years and stick in the top 9. For that to happen someone else had to come out. So we moved him and got Pominville. Get over it.

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04-09-2013, 05:25 PM
  #440
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Coyle has much better potential to be a 2nd line center than Larsson does. There is nothing in Coyle's game to suggest he couldnt play center if needed.

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04-09-2013, 05:28 PM
  #441
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Some people just don't understand the idea that our 5th best prospect..Johan Larsson was behind Granlund, Coyle, Zucker. That is 3 forwards right there..only 12 can play on a team at a time. All of those 4 were considered to be top with maybe Larsson top 9.

Either way that means you need 9 top 9 forward spots open for Larsson to EVER play in Minnesota.

Koivu, Parise, Setoguchi, Granlund, Coyle, Zucker, Clutterbuck, Brodziak, Cullen, Heatley, Bouchard.

Even with assuming both Bouchard/Heatley are gone next year that is still 9..so when exactly was Larsson going to fit into our forward mix??

Yeah we moved a bright young player who will be a good NHL'er. But for god sakes we still have 3 blue chip forward prospects and maybe 1-2 more in Lucia, Phillips, Bussieries, Haula, Graovac etc.

They can't all play here. So you use them as currency to get you the players you need immediately for your playoff run. On top of that Pominville is no rental. He is signed for next season and probably will ink long term.

We traded a good prospect. Big deal. We have a truckload of them still..even without Larsson were as good as anyone in that department save Florida or Ottawa maybe.

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04-09-2013, 05:31 PM
  #442
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This is why your not an NHL GM. Coyle is a proven NHL forward and is a guarantee. We know his baseline already and he has crazy potential. Larsson was an unknown. Center or not the idea of trading Coyle before Larsson would be organizational suicide.

Larsson wasn't going to make this team for the next 2-3 years and stick in the top 9. For that to happen someone else had to come out. So we moved him and got Pominville. Get over it.
Haha, and I see why you're not one either. Coyle has proven nothing. In fact the only thing he's proving is mediocrity considering the golden playing opportunity handed to him. Larsson outperformed him offensively in Houston. It wouldn't be hard to outperform Coyle in the NHL. And Larsson is a center that can play a physical, 2-way game. Coyle is too slow to play center or be more than a NHL 2-line winger. Larsson was desperately needed in this organization considering the age and mediocrity of the NHL centers.

You know how bad Coyle has been offensively this year? Statistically Torrey Mitchell and Cal Clutterbuck are as good offensively as Coyle, and that's with them playing on the grind line versus the first line.

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Coyle has much better potential to be a 2nd line center than Larsson does. There is nothing in Coyle's game to suggest he couldnt play center if needed.
He's too slow right now to be an effective center. He doesn't even play the game like a center. He's a perimeter player.

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04-09-2013, 05:41 PM
  #443
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Haha, and I see why you're not one either. Coyle has proven nothing. In fact the only thing he's proving is mediocrity considering the golden playing opportunity handed to him. Larsson outperformed him offensively in Houston. It wouldn't be hard to outperform Coyle in the NHL. And Larsson is a center that can play a physical, 2-way game. Coyle is too slow to play center or be more than a NHL 2-line winger. Larsson was desperately needed in this organization considering the age and mediocrity of the NHL centers.

You know how bad Coyle has been offensively this year? Statistically Torrey Mitchell and Cal Clutterbuck are as good offensively as Coyle, and that's with them playing on the grind line versus the first line.


He's too slow right now to be an effective center. He doesn't even play the game like a center. He's a perimeter player.

If you honestly think that Larsson is a better skater than Coyle? well then its really not even worth the time

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04-09-2013, 05:44 PM
  #444
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Don't feed the troll.

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04-09-2013, 05:50 PM
  #445
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Haha, and I see why you're not one either. Coyle has proven nothing. In fact the only thing he's proving is mediocrity considering the golden playing opportunity handed to him. Larsson outperformed him offensively in Houston. It wouldn't be hard to outperform Coyle in the NHL. And Larsson is a center that can play a physical, 2-way game. Coyle is too slow to play center or be more than a NHL 2-line winger. Larsson was desperately needed in this organization considering the age and mediocrity of the NHL centers.

You know how bad Coyle has been offensively this year? Statistically Torrey Mitchell and Cal Clutterbuck are as good offensively as Coyle, and that's with them playing on the grind line versus the first line.


He's too slow right now to be an effective center. He doesn't even play the game like a center. He's a perimeter player.
First off, Coyle's a rookie. How and why are you statistically comparing him to vet NHL players? That just makes no sense...

Also, Coyle's not slow. He's not Zucker fast, but he can hold his own just fine.

Finally, while your comparing him to Clutterbuck and Mitchell, you should also note that he does have really good hands and is strong on the puck. Neither Mitchell nor especially Cluterbuck have good hands or are strong on the puck. No one can deny these are traits of Coyle. Bouchard is a perimeter player, Coyle is no where near being a perimeter player.

And, if you think that he's peaked in regards to his development already, then I want what you're smoking.

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04-09-2013, 05:51 PM
  #446
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Don't feed the troll.
Seriously. I thought that was a joke, or being too harsh, but now I'm starting to wonder...

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04-09-2013, 05:51 PM
  #447
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anyone wonder how much Leipold's desire to make the playoffs now and for the next 5 years went into this decision?

now that the dust has settled, I liked the trade a week ago, still like it now... only wish is that it was two 2nd rounds picks given up (maybe an additional 3rd), not the 1st. personally, I don't mind losing Larsson, always figured he was gone with the current crop of prospects.

If we win one playoff series this year and Poms provided points, the deal was a success for this season. IMO not a loss if we don't... time will tell, will have to look at this in 2-4-6 years from now

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04-09-2013, 05:51 PM
  #448
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If you honestly think that Larsson is a better skater than Coyle? well then its really not even worth the time
Have you actually seen them together in person? I have. They're close in speed, but no way is Larsson slower than Coyle. And Larsson plays like a center. He's comfortable in the middle of the ice. Coyle takes things outside. So there you go.

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Don't feed the troll.
Sorry to see that you don't know what a troll is.

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First off, Coyle's a rookie. How and why are you statistically comparing him to vet NHL players? That just makes no sense...

Also, Coyle's not slow. He's not Zucker fast, but he can hold his own just fine.

Finally, while your comparing him to Clutterbuck and Mitchell, you should also note that he does have really good hands and is strong on the puck. Neither Mitchell nor especially Cluterbuck have good hands or are strong on the puck. No one can deny these are traits of Coyle. Bouchard is a perimeter player, Coyle is no where near being a perimeter player.

And, if you think that he's peaked in regards to his development already, then I want what you're smoking.
Is it really that unfair to compare a top NHL prospect with a pair of offensively-struggling bottom-6 grinders? Seriously, have we lowered our standards for acceptability that far? Great, he's a big guy with good hands. Well then where's the production that should come with that? If he has all these advantages, the results should be there. But they've been missing in both pro leagues this year. He makes one good play every game or two and then everyone has a crush on him. Give me a break.

I'm sorry, but Coyle is fairly slow overall, although it's an average speed for a big guy. At least he plays that way. Just watch him. You'll see it. And when I say perimeter player, I mean along the boards and down by the net. In other words, not the middle. And who is suggesting that he's peaked? Hey, your words, not mine.


Last edited by State of Hockey: 04-09-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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04-09-2013, 06:14 PM
  #449
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Have you actually seen them together in person? I have. They're close in speed, but no way is Larsson slower than Coyle. And Larsson plays like a center. He's comfortable in the middle of the ice. Coyle takes things outside. So there you go.


Sorry to see that you don't know what a troll is.


Is it really that unfair to compare a top NHL prospect with a pair of offensively-struggling bottom-6 grinders? Seriously, have we lowered our standards for acceptability that far? Great, he's a big guy with good hands. Well then where's the production that should come with that? If he has all these advantages, the results should be there. But they've been missing in both pro leagues this year. He makes one good play every game or two and then everyone has a crush on him. Give me a break.

I'm sorry, but Coyle is fairly slow overall, although it's an average speed for a big guy. At least he plays that way. Just watch him. You'll see it. And when I say perimeter player, I mean along the boards and down by the net. In other words, not the middle. And who is suggesting that he's peaked? Hey, your words, not mine.
He's a ROOKIE!
He has 3 goals in the last 5 games. The production will come. With most rookies it just takes time.

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04-09-2013, 06:29 PM
  #450
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He's a ROOKIE!
He has 3 goals in the last 5 games. The production will come. With most rookies it just takes time.
Hasn't scored on anything other than a tap in. Granlund has been able to match his productivity from the 3rd-4th line. That being said, he's going to be a good player someday. And hopefully a great one. But his numbers are rather pathetic for the numbers and opportunity he has been given.

And I'd have to agree that Larsson is a faster skater than Coyle. But Coyle also doesn't show out of place skating next to the big boys.

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