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Greatest Goalie of All Time #6

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest goalie of all time? #6
Ken Dryden 39 38.61%
George Hainsworth 1 0.99%
Bill Durnan 4 3.96%
Martin Brodeur 28 27.72%
Vladislav Tretiak 19 18.81%
Bernie Parent 3 2.97%
Clint Benedict 0 0%
Turk Broda 0 0%
Billy Smith 4 3.96%
Johnny Bower 3 2.97%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-24-2006, 06:25 PM
  #51
Habsfan 32
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Martin Brodeur

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Old
08-24-2006, 08:59 PM
  #52
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meehan View Post
Dryden's backups have a higher winning percentage than he does.
The occurence of a backup having a better winning percentage than the starter isn`t that rare. The year Dallas won the Cup, Roman Turek's mark (16-3-3; .833) was much better than Belfour's ( 35-15-9; .669). In Patrick Roy's`96 Cup win with Colorado, his mark (22-15-1; .592) was much worse than Stephane Fiset`s ( 22-6-7; .729). In Roy`s previous Cup win before that in Montreal, Andre Racicot (17-5-1; .761) had a better mark than Roy (31-25-5; .549). The last year the Isles won the Cup, Roland Melanson had a better % (24-12-5; .646) than Billy Smith (18-14-7; .581). It's not uncommon. If it diminishes Dryden's accomplishments, then does it also diminish the accomplishments of Patrick Roy?

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Dryden's stats get worse in the playoffs.
Are you talking about GAA or winning percentage? If you`re talking GAA, then it should`ve been brought up in the previous point how Dryden's GAA and save percentage blew away Larocque`s. As for Dryden`s playoff GAA, it`s hardly a huge drop and mostly because of his early years, he got better at playoff time in his prime years:

`72- Regular Season- 2.24; Playoffs- 2.83
`73- Regular Season- 2.26; Playoffs- 2.89
`75- Regular Season- 2.69; Playoffs- 2.53
`76- Regular Season- 2.03; Playoffs- 1.92
`77- Regular Season- 2.14; Playoffs- 1.55
`78- Regular Season- 2.05; Playoffs- 1.89
`79- Regular Season- 2.30; Playoffs- 2.48

If you`re talking winning percentage, then Brodeur has a drop-off too...

Dryden: Regular Season- .758; Playoffs- .714
Brodeur: Regular Season- .630; Playoffs- .582

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And playoff wins are important.....Brodeur already has more than Dryden
.
9 more wins. He also has twice as many losses. It comes with playing a longer career. Grant Fuhr has more playoff wins than Brodeur. Mike Vernon has more than Hasek. It`s like saying Luc Robitaille or Mike Gartner had more goals than Mike Bossy without bringing up that they played twice as long. Is Bossy inferior to them because of a lack of longevity.

Dryden isn`t a case of somebody like a Lindros who was the best briefly and you wonder what may have been if he had a full career. If a goalie played 20 years and only accomplished what Dryden did (6 Cups, 5 1st Team All-Stars, 1 Conn Smythe) he would be an automatic HHOFer. The fact that Dryden compressed it all in a short span makes it even more remarkable, not less.

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Old
08-24-2006, 10:30 PM
  #53
meehan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
The occurence of a backup having a better winning percentage than the starter isn`t that rare. The year Dallas won the Cup, Roman Turek's mark (16-3-3; .833) was much better than Belfour's ( 35-15-9; .669). In Patrick Roy's`96 Cup win with Colorado, his mark (22-15-1; .592) was much worse than Stephane Fiset`s ( 22-6-7; .729). In Roy`s previous Cup win before that in Montreal, Andre Racicot (17-5-1; .761) had a better mark than Roy (31-25-5; .549). The last year the Isles won the Cup, Roland Melanson had a better % (24-12-5; .646) than Billy Smith (18-14-7; .581). It's not uncommon. If it diminishes Dryden's accomplishments, then does it also diminish the accomplishments of Patrick Roy?
It's not uncommon for there to be a few seasons here and there where the backup to a HOF goalie plays really well. However, for Dryden's entire career, his backups have a higher winning percentage than he does; that is certainly not the case for Roy or Brodeur (I checked those two out personally) and is probably not the case for the majority of HOF goalies who played the big chunk of their teams games. Again, all that shows is how great those Canadiens teams were.

Quote:
Are you talking about GAA or winning percentage? If you`re talking GAA, then it should`ve been brought up in the previous point how Dryden's GAA and save percentage blew away Larocque`s. As for Dryden`s playoff GAA, it`s hardly a huge drop and mostly because of his early years, he got better at playoff time in his prime years:

`72- Regular Season- 2.24; Playoffs- 2.83
`73- Regular Season- 2.26; Playoffs- 2.89
`75- Regular Season- 2.69; Playoffs- 2.53
`76- Regular Season- 2.03; Playoffs- 1.92
`77- Regular Season- 2.14; Playoffs- 1.55
`78- Regular Season- 2.05; Playoffs- 1.89
`79- Regular Season- 2.30; Playoffs- 2.48

If you`re talking winning percentage, then Brodeur has a drop-off too...

Dryden: Regular Season- .758; Playoffs- .714
Brodeur: Regular Season- .630; Playoffs- .582
I mean GAA, as win percentage should drop as in the playoffs you don't have ties and there is more to winning games than just goaltender play. And Dryden already has played in a fraction of games Brodeur has, why do we have to make his sample size even smaller? I mean if you doctor Brodeur's numbers to your liking you can make his career look better than it really is too. Facts are, Dryden's playoff GAA is higher than his regular season GAA, take for that what you will.

Quote:
9 more wins. He also has twice as many losses. It comes with playing a longer career. Grant Fuhr has more playoff wins than Brodeur. Mike Vernon has more than Hasek. It`s like saying Luc Robitaille or Mike Gartner had more goals than Mike Bossy without bringing up that they played twice as long. Is Bossy inferior to them because of a lack of longevity.

Dryden isn`t a case of somebody like a Lindros who was the best briefly and you wonder what may have been if he had a full career. If a goalie played 20 years and only accomplished what Dryden did (6 Cups, 5 1st Team All-Stars, 1 Conn Smythe) he would be an automatic HHOFer. The fact that Dryden compressed it all in a short span makes it even more remarkable, not less.
Again, my point is that it is debatable. No one is disputing HOF credentials as both goalies are easily HOF goalies. My take is that say Dryden played 20 years and never had success other than what he did on those Montreal teams, would it not take away from his greatness? How many vezina's and 1st team all-stars would he have if he played in the same era as hall/plante/sawchuk or brodeur/roy/hasek? These are all relevant questions when trying to determine the best of the best goaltenders ever and there is alot of room for interpretation.

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Old
08-24-2006, 10:58 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Dryden isn`t a case of somebody like a Lindros who was the best briefly and you wonder what may have been if he had a full career. If a goalie played 20 years and only accomplished what Dryden did (6 Cups, 5 1st Team All-Stars, 1 Conn Smythe) he would be an automatic HHOFer. The fact that Dryden compressed it all in a short span makes it even more remarkable, not less.
Nah. It does nothing. He accomplished what he accomplished. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Can't believe I'm the only one voting Hainsworth. Best single season ever for a goalie. Over a 132 game period got 49 shutouts. More major pro shutouts than any other goalie, second all time for NHL shutouts. Over a 13 year period missed 2 games. in th 29-30 playoffs he got 3 shutouts in 6 games played.

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08-24-2006, 11:42 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Nah. It does nothing. He accomplished what he accomplished. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Can't believe I'm the only one voting Hainsworth. Best single season ever for a goalie. Over a 132 game period got 49 shutouts. More major pro shutouts than any other goalie, second all time for NHL shutouts. Over a 13 year period missed 2 games. in th 29-30 playoffs he got 3 shutouts in 6 games played.
Wasn't that before the forward pass though?

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08-24-2006, 11:58 PM
  #56
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Wasn't that before the forward pass though?
I think so. But that doesn't make getting a GAA under 1 and a shutout every second game an easy accomplishment.

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08-25-2006, 12:11 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Nah. It does nothing. He accomplished what he accomplished. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Can't believe I'm the only one voting Hainsworth. Best single season ever for a goalie. Over a 132 game period got 49 shutouts. More major pro shutouts than any other goalie, second all time for NHL shutouts. Over a 13 year period missed 2 games. in th 29-30 playoffs he got 3 shutouts in 6 games played.
Nalyd, as someone who has been voting in these polls almost since the beginning, the one thing I've noticed is the vote shifts, especially for the older players. (ie: those who played before the 21-team era). Most of those who voted for Dryden also voted for Hall and also voted for Plante/Sawchuk. Brodeur's had his core support pretty much since No. 3 or 4, picking up a few votes with each passing poll.

I think a lot of those who are voting for Dryden would pick Hainsworth or Durnan next. (Not me, I'm going to vote for Tretiak. In the best game ever played, Tretiak was far and away the best player on the ice. That says a lot.)

I think you'll see Dryden hold on to his lead, and then Brodeur and Tretiak in 7 and 8. (Not sure which order). After that, it's going to be a crapshoot, especially with one of the polls falling on a long weekend. I think any one of six or seven goalies could win No. 9.

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08-25-2006, 12:18 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meehan View Post
It's not uncommon for there to be a few seasons here and there where the backup to a HOF goalie plays really well. However, for Dryden's entire career, his backups have a higher winning percentage than he does; that is certainly not the case for Roy or Brodeur (I checked those two out personally) and is probably not the case for the majority of HOF goalies who played the big chunk of their teams games. Again, all that shows is how great those Canadiens teams were.



I mean GAA, as win percentage should drop as in the playoffs you don't have ties and there is more to winning games than just goaltender play. And Dryden already has played in a fraction of games Brodeur has, why do we have to make his sample size even smaller? I mean if you doctor Brodeur's numbers to your liking you can make his career look better than it really is too. Facts are, Dryden's playoff GAA is higher than his regular season GAA, take for that what you will.



Again, my point is that it is debatable. No one is disputing HOF credentials as both goalies are easily HOF goalies. My take is that say Dryden played 20 years and never had success other than what he did on those Montreal teams, would it not take away from his greatness? How many vezina's and 1st team all-stars would he have if he played in the same era as hall/plante/sawchuk or brodeur/roy/hasek? These are all relevant questions when trying to determine the best of the best goaltenders ever and there is alot of room for interpretation.
With his efficient style, and with his composure, I think Dryden would have won a lot of awards in any era. He did have Bernie Parent and Tony Esposito as a contemporary, and while Parent and Esposito aren't in the class of the goalies you mentioned, they are worthy HHOFers who rate in the top 15 goalies ever. It's not like Dryden's competition was a bunch of Andre Racicot's or Dan Cloutier's. He beat some pretty good goalies for those all-star team selections, and some damn good teams for those six Stanley Cups.

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08-25-2006, 08:32 PM
  #59
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I think now is the time to slot in Tretiak, IMO, and I will say yet again add Brimsek.

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08-25-2006, 10:54 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by meehan View Post
That's not a fair comparison as the difference between Gretzky and Bossy is much larger than the difference between Brodeur and Dryden so as to disqualify such a justification of your original choice of words. No goaltender who ever played the game is at the level of legends like Gretzky.



I won't deny that, but you can also say Brodeur's devils don't win as much if at all without him too.



To counter, though Dryden was the league's best goalie more times, Brodeur played much of his career alongside Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek, both top 5 goalies all time according to this poll and both considerably better than Dryden's competition in net most years. Though Brodeur has only played five more seasons than Dryden, Brodeur's seasons are so much longer than Dryden's that the difference in games amounts to Brodeur playing 90% more total games. Brodeur doesn't have a conn smythe but Brodeur has had MVP calibur playoffs where he could have justifiably won the Conn Smythe. For instance the last time the Devils won the cup the award was given to a player on the losing team; doesn't mean that Brodeur didn't put up an MVP calibur performance. And again, Brodeur gets harder to score on in the playoffs, more so than Dryden. Dryden being the most important part of the Habs dynasty is debatable, just like how you can debate Brodeur being the most important player in the Devil's winning years.
I know it's not a fair comparison. However, you have only mentioned two things where Brodeur has the edge on Dryden. Brodeur and Dryden are pretty close. I still stand by my comment that there is no way Brodeur is better than Dryden. Both are very similar but Dryden is just better than Brodeur. I would rather have 8 years of Dryden than the 12 years of Brodeur.

You could say that about Brodeur. However, look at how the Canadiens did when Dryden wasn't there.

Parent had one of the best streches by a goalie in history. It's not like Dryden had horrible competition. You are right though the competition wasn't as great as Brodeur's. Dryden has beat some of the best teams in hockey history though. Dryden was very hard to score on in the playoffs. In order to win 5 Cups you don't get worse in the playoffs. Like I said earlier without Dryden the Habs didn't win. That's why I think he is the most important player in the Habs dynasty.

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08-26-2006, 03:42 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I know it's not a fair comparison. However, you have only mentioned two things where Brodeur has the edge on Dryden. Brodeur and Dryden are pretty close. I still stand by my comment that there is no way Brodeur is better than Dryden. Both are very similar but Dryden is just better than Brodeur. I would rather have 8 years of Dryden than the 12 years of Brodeur.
Well, we are both entitled to our opinions; my point always was that it was close between the two. I prefer Brodeur as I am big on sustained greatness.

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You could say that about Brodeur. However, look at how the Canadiens did when Dryden wasn't there.

Parent had one of the best streches by a goalie in history. It's not like Dryden had horrible competition. You are right though the competition wasn't as great as Brodeur's. Dryden has beat some of the best teams in hockey history though. Dryden was very hard to score on in the playoffs. In order to win 5 Cups you don't get worse in the playoffs. Like I said earlier without Dryden the Habs didn't win. That's why I think he is the most important player in the Habs dynasty.
At this point we are basically running around in circles and everything that has to be said has been said so I these will be my final words on this issue (especially since it's pretty much a non issue now as Dryden has most pretty much won the poll). Yeah Dryden's Canadiens didn't win cups when he didn't play, but how do we know that had he played in 1974 that the Canadiens beat the Flyers, or if he played into the 80s that the Habs do anything against the Islanders or Oilers? Definately, the Canadiens were a better team with Dryden in net than without. However, the same could be said about many HOF goalies, especially Brodeur without whom the Devils are a .500 team over the last decade plus (as no other goalie has started a playoff game for them, regular season is all there is to look at in that regard). So to sum up, Dryden didn't beat all those great teams, Brodeur didn't win championships on his own, nor did Roy, Sawchuk, Plante etc etc. No goalie wins cups on his own. When I judge a goalies greatness I ask myself who I would want to be the backbone of a team that will be successful for many years; as that is what Brodeur has been since he started his NHL career, he is the guy I would rather have.

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