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04-09-2013, 11:33 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
If anyone would have predicted that Dubey would have those kind of stats before the season started they would have been laughed at. His biggest supporters never would have thought his stats would be that good. But yet there are still posters who insist we need to make it top priority to improve on Dubnyk's play this season.
He needs to stop letting in the softies. That's broken our backs in multiple games this season. He needs to not be the reason the team loses. Nothing demoralizes a team more than when a goalie lets in a bad goal, doesn't matter if the team is good or it's bad. As soon as the mental lapses stop, I daresay it is possible he may be considered elite. Elite goalies do not have mental lapses, at least not as often as he seems to have them.

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04-09-2013, 11:35 PM
  #177
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How about this list (these are not excuses, nor do I believe you want to get rid of him...just pointing out the positives/facts as well as the negatives):

-He IS only 26 with room to grow
-You have admitted he is a competent but not elite starter (you say 11-20 range... I agree...though likely we are at opposite ends of that spectrum)...not easily replaced at best a lateral move is more likely
-Good save percentage
-He has shown noticeable improvement in the second half of this (his first as a bona fide starter) season
-Big, solid pedigree
-Zero trade value (as is the case with nearly all goalies)

All things considered...your scenario of 1A and 1B seems reasonable...though you are down on Dubnyk you have been realistic about both what he is, and what we might be able to get to compliment him...the only thing open to debate is what he MIGHT become...you are not sold, others are...

But at least you haven't got us picking up Rinne or Lundquist for Lander and Vande Velde and extending them at 1.5 a year!!!

I don't love your tone/negative outlook...but I can't find any flaws in your proposals to bolster our goaltending situation!!!



Honest question...who would be unhappy if we signed Hiller to replace Khabi at a reasonable rate?
Yes Dubnyk has room to grow, but there is no guarantee he will grow.

Noticeable improvement in the second half of this season? In which areas of his game?

Pedigree? What is that? First round pick who has played ok in some random tournaments nobody really cares about.

Agreed on his trade value.

Other than Nabob I don't think anyone would have an issue with Hiller getting signed cheaply.

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04-09-2013, 11:36 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
He needs to stop letting in the softies. That's broken our backs in multiple games this season. He needs to not be the reason the team loses. Nothing demoralizes a team more than when a goalie lets in a bad goal, doesn't matter if the team is good or it's bad. As soon as the mental lapses stop, I daresay it is possible he may be considered elite. Elite goalies do not have mental lapses, at least not as often as he seems to have them.
Dubnyk lets in very few softies. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. This team is a joke, that's the problem. They get demoralized because they get outshot by 10 every game and never touch the puck. They only get across the red line to dump the puck in and change. Blaming Dubnyk for any part of this team of mental midgets shows a complete lack of judgement.

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04-09-2013, 11:37 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
Yes Dubnyk has room to grow, but there is no guarantee he will grow.

Noticeable improvement in the second half of this season? In which areas of his game?

Pedigree? What is that? First round pick who has played ok in some random tournaments nobody really cares about.

Agreed on his trade value.

Other than Nabob I don't think anyone would have an issue with Hiller getting signed cheaply.
The NHL might have something to say about Tambellini signing a player who is already signed to another team. But hey lets just assume the Ducks will buyout their long term starter and base our whole argument off of that.

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04-09-2013, 11:38 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by actionjackson View Post
nevermind Hiller not free agent...but to restructure the question...would anyone be unhappy if we signed another 1A/1B goalie at a reasonable rate to replace Khabi?

I would be very happy
That's exactly what I am arguing for. A goalie that can challenge Dubnyk for the starting job.

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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
The NHL might have something to say about Tambellini signing a player who is already signed to another team. But hey lets just assume the Ducks will buyout their long term starter and base our whole argument off of that.
That's the assumption I made.

Is he their long term starter or has he lost his starting job? I can't really tell what you believe because it changes from post to post.

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04-09-2013, 11:38 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
That's exactly what I am arguing for. A goalie that can challenge Dubnyk for the starting job.
Who is that?

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04-09-2013, 11:41 PM
  #182
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The Oilers have the 4th best winning percentage in the league when they outshoot the other team. Too bad the team is garbage and so they can rarely manage that. It's amazing that when they outplay a team, they almost always win. You'd think with a goalie letting in soft goals all the time, they would have trouble winning even when they outplay a team.

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04-09-2013, 11:42 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
He needs to stop letting in the softies. That's broken our backs in multiple games this season. He needs to not be the reason the team loses. Nothing demoralizes a team more than when a goalie lets in a bad goal, doesn't matter if the team is good or it's bad. As soon as the mental lapses stop, I daresay it is possible he may be considered elite. Elite goalies do not have mental lapses, at least not as often as he seems to have them.
I guess we have different definitions of softies then. I would say he lets in a slightly above average number of goals where you would say "I wish he could have that one back." I have seen many fans here claim that a player who takes a wide open shot from the slot and puts it off the bar and in is a weak goal on Dubnyk.

I cannot think of very many games where he has been the reason why the team lost this year. But I can think of many, many games where they have lost because they have been badly outplayed and out chanced.

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04-09-2013, 11:43 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Insta View Post
Who is that?
I'm ok with your quality backup at low dollars if they can find that. I'd much rather see the team use compliance buyouts to free up cap room for a run at a good goalie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insta View Post
The Oilers have the 4th best winning percentage in the league when they outshoot the other team. Too bad the team is garbage and so they can rarely manage that. It's amazing that when they outplay a team, they almost always win. You'd think with a goalie letting in soft goals all the time, they would have trouble winning even when they outplay a team.
Where did you get that from? It is somewhat plausible, I just don't know of any source that keeps a stat like that.

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04-09-2013, 11:47 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post

That's the assumption I made.

Is he their long term starter or has he lost his starting job? I can't really tell what you believe because it changes from post to post.

He has been their starter for the last 4 years(a long term) and has started more games than Fasth this year. But it appears the Ducks have gone to a 1A/1B system where Hiller has started a few more games than Fasth, but Fasth has better stats. But I bet you if the playoffs started tomorrow Hiller would start.

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04-09-2013, 11:50 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Insta View Post
The Oilers have the 4th best winning percentage in the league when they outshoot the other team. Too bad the team is garbage and so they can rarely manage that. It's amazing that when they outplay a team, they almost always win. You'd think with a goalie letting in soft goals all the time, they would have trouble winning even when they outplay a team.
so by the same logic you could deduce that even when they are outplayed they still win games, because they very rarely ever outshoot/out chance their opponents.

Looks like a sign of good goaltending to me...

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04-09-2013, 11:51 PM
  #187
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So you are saying that Hiller is still the starter to argue for him not becoming an Oiler.

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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
He has been their starter for the last 4 years(a long term) and has started more games than Fasth this year. But it appears the Ducks have gone to a 1A/1B system where Hiller has started a few more games than Fasth, but Fasth has better stats. But I bet you if the playoffs started tomorrow Hiller would start.
But you are also saying the Hiller lost his starting job to argue for him not becoming an Oiler.

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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
So you are suggesting that we trade assests for a 31 year old, $4.5M goalie who's game has fallen off the map over the last two seasons and has now lost his starting job? Really?
Your argument is as consistent as Dubnyk's play ... i.e. not very much.

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04-09-2013, 11:52 PM
  #188
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There are obviously no guarantees. Dubie is signed next year and brings no decent trade value. So I think bring someone who can push Dubie. A Ben Bishop perhaps? Clearly not an upgrade at this point, but he might provide some competition. Sign him on a two-year deal at reasonable money.

Going in a different direction, Luongo being bought out is looking more and more likely. Five years, $5M a year. A little low on salary and term but I think he'd jump at the chance to eff the Canucks in their division and show them that he should have been the choice. Gotta move Dubie's salary to make this work, but if he's as good as everyone here thinks it should be doable.

As for cap room, conventional wisdom on this site appears to be that Horcoff is not getting bought out over the summer. That blows me away if anyone is serious about cap room. Getting rid of Horcs (and maybe N. Schultz) creates a ton of room for signings, including the possibility of a goalie.
I'd be shocked if Luongo got bought out. Last year the Canucks had an operating income of 30.4 million before before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. A Luongo buyout would cost 27 million dollars. Considering about 9 million dollars of their profit was probably from the playoffs (afaik playoff games are worth about 3 million each) and all of a sudden they may have made less than 20 million in the regular season and that's still before the money that they still have to pay to taxes and whatnot. So basically a Luongo buyout would cost them, as far as we know, easily more than a full regular seasons profit. With the Canucks being a cap team we know Lou's salary will be replaced so it's not like there will be savings in that regard. One small consideration is that it's spread out over 18 years, but even then that's a long time to be writting million and a half dollar cheques. So even it it being spread out makes it more digestable for a team lets remember 27 million is 27 million, and that's a lot of ****ing money for jack ****.

Imagine being a GM and asking your owner to dedicate a full years of profit, which again is a staggering 27 million dollars, just to get rid of a guy (a guy who's not useless yet either and you signed). Yeah good luck keeping your job as a GM.

http://www.forbes.com/teams/vancouver-canucks/

http://www.capgeek.com/buyout-calcul...06&buyout_d=15

I don't know what the Canucks will do, and a buyout is still possible i suppose, all i'm saying is it doesn't seem very realistic. It's easy for us to forget and not worry about how much money this really is but it's probably a lot harder for the owner to do the same.

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04-09-2013, 11:54 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
I'm ok with your quality backup at low dollars if they can find that. I'd much rather see the team use compliance buyouts to free up cap room for a run at a good goalie.
Who would that be?

I'd much rather see the team use Whitney's money to sign Streit to a 2 or 3 year deal, then use Smyth, Belanger and Jones' money to sign Horton and or Clarkson.

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04-09-2013, 11:59 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Insta View Post
Dubnyk lets in very few softies. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. This team is a joke, that's the problem. They get demoralized because they get outshot by 10 every game and never touch the puck. They only get across the red line to dump the puck in and change. Blaming Dubnyk for any part of this team of mental midgets shows a complete lack of judgement.
I don't disagree that the team lets Dubey down more often than not, but he's the last line of defense, so he needs to make all of the routine saves. But he doesn't, imo. And that's a problem, especially so for a team of "mental midgets".

And lay off the personal comments like "...complete lack of judgement.", please.

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04-10-2013, 12:01 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
So you are saying that Hiller is still the starter to argue for him not becoming an Oiler.



But you are also saying the Hiller lost his starting job to argue for him not becoming an Oiler.



Your argument is as consistent as Dubnyk's play ... i.e. not very much.
No I am saying he is under contract to the Ducks for $4.5M next season to argue for him not becoming an Oiler. The Ducks do not throw away money. You can continue to totally ignore the fact that they are a budget team and not a cap team, and continue to assume they will buy out the goalie who is currently their 1A/1B guy if you want. Seeing as how you have no other possible target for the Oilers.

Your argument is based off of one totally illogical assumption.

He is not the defacto #1 starting goalie in Anaheim anymore but he has started 14 out of their last 22 games, and has playoff experiance which Fasth does not. Its a 1A/1B situation.

Please show me how Hiller has been more consistant than Dubnyk since Dubnyk began starting the majority of the Oilers games. You cant.

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04-10-2013, 12:01 AM
  #192
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Who would that be?
For the compliance buyouts?

Horcoff and Nick Schultz.

Who do they go after? Depends. Do they want to try and attract an aging guy for a number of years? A true 1B with a little potential to become the start? Do they want to go the trade route or the free agency route?

Lost of options. I want the team to put themselves in the position where they can decide if they want to go with something other than a backup on the cheap.

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04-10-2013, 12:04 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
I'm ok with your quality backup at low dollars if they can find that. I'd much rather see the team use compliance buyouts to free up cap room for a run at a good goalie.



Where did you get that from? It is somewhat plausible, I just don't know of any source that keeps a stat like that.
really? Using that money to sign another goalie would be like a sinking boat managing to get back to dock and the captain deciding to spend his money on bigger pails.

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04-10-2013, 12:06 AM
  #194
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For the compliance buyouts?

Horcoff and Nick Schultz.

Who do they go after? Depends. Do they want to try and attract an aging guy for a number of years? A true 1B with a little potential to become the start? Do they want to go the trade route or the free agency route?

Lost of options. I want the team to put themselves in the position where they can decide if they want to go with something other than a backup on the cheap.
No who would be that good goalie they would take a run at.

Buy out the captain and assistant captain eh? hmm. That should go over real well. The Oilers have lots of cap space. They dont need to sacrifice two very useful players to gain more, even if they are overpaid by a small amount in the big picture. Compliance buyouts are for useless players like Belanger and Smyth. Or guys like Redden and Gomez who are eating huge portions of cap space while providing nothing. This isnt NHL13 where you can just shuffle out 10 players every year and improve your team a little bit in every transaction.

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04-10-2013, 12:08 AM
  #195
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I don't disagree that the team lets Dubey down more often than not, but he's the last line of defense, so he needs to make all of the routine saves. But he doesn't, imo. And that's a problem, especially so for a team of "mental midgets".

And lay off the personal comments like "...complete lack of judgement.", please.
Fine. Pick any goalie you think is a realistic answer to the oilers goaltending woes then go to nhl.com and watch the highlights of his last 7 or 8 games and get back to me with the ones that save every shot that isnt an impossible save. Preferably they face 30+ shots per night as well.

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04-10-2013, 12:08 AM
  #196
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I don't know what the Canucks will do, and a buyout is still possible i suppose, all i'm saying is it doesn't seem very realistic. It's easy for us to forget and not worry about how much money this really is but it's probably a lot harder for the owner to do the same.
This is OT, and probably a good topic for another thread.

I just don't get why teams would agree to compliance buyouts in the CBA at all if they weren't going to use them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will, but I will be a little surprised if they don't.

Luongo hasn't been moved because of his contract. He really can't be moved because of his contract. The Canucks definitely don't want another season of the Luongo circus in town. With no trade that leaves buyout or bury him as their options. Sure they could eat a ton of his contract in a trade, but that would probably not provide much savings and would hurt on the cap.

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Buy out the captain and assistant captain eh? hmm. That should go over real well. The Oilers have lots of cap space. They dont need to sacrifice two very useful players to gain more, even if they are overpaid by a small amount in the big picture. Compliance buyouts are for useless players like Belanger and Smyth.
So Horcoff and Schultz can't be bought out because it will have an impact on the dressing room, by Smytty can be? Right...

Nick Schultz is a very useful player?

Horcoff is overpaid by a small amount? At what point isn't he over paid then? $5.3 M a year? $5.1 M a year?

Compliance buyouts are to make your team better.

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04-10-2013, 12:09 AM
  #197
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really? Using that money to sign another goalie would be like a sinking boat managing to get back to dock and the captain deciding to spend his money on bigger pails.


Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

It would be pretty badass to have a sweet 80" TV in a run down mobile home. Think of all the video games you could play and games you could watch of the Oilers getting constantly worked over by the opposition while your expensive goalie tandem is forced to stand on its head every night.

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04-10-2013, 12:11 AM
  #198
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Who is that?
From Capgeek...these are what I think MIGHT be the best choices in free agency...my opinion is really only that...and could be based on a variety of uneducated, poor choices and random samples!!!

Possibilities:

Backstrom- not happening
Smith (Phoenix) -not happening
Howard (Detroit) - not happening
Emery (Chicago) - maybe...but maybe not a solid choice...a gamble for sure...one I would take though
Budaj (Montreal) -yuck
Khudobin (Boston) - Yes I would...likely...not happening
Montoya - (Rangers) - pretty underwhelming body of work
Leighton - (Columbus) - sure why not


Would want...but Nabokov already said no to Northern Canada I believe...

Thomas no thanks!!!


So Emery, Khudobin, or Leighton in free agency...providing they don't sign with their current club.

Trade possibilities are the only other option...and that leaves everything pretty wide open!

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04-10-2013, 12:12 AM
  #199
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This is OT, and probably a good topic for another thread.

I just don't get why teams would agree to compliance buyouts in the CBA at all if they weren't going to use them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will, but I will be a little surprised if they don't.

Luongo hasn't been moved because of his contract. He really can't be moved because of his contract. The Canucks definitely don't want another season of the Luongo circus in town. With no trade that leaves buyout or bury him as their options. Sure they could eat a ton of his contract in a trade, but that would probably not provide much savings and would hurt on the cap.
He hasnt been traded because Gillis has too much pride to admit what Luongo blurted out on national TV. He could have dealt him before the season and he could have dealt him at the deadline but he would have looked bad because of how small the return would have been.

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04-10-2013, 12:15 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
I don't disagree that the team lets Dubey down more often than not, but he's the last line of defense, so he needs to make all of the routine saves. But he doesn't, imo. And that's a problem, especially so for a team of "mental midgets".

And lay off the personal comments like "...complete lack of judgement.", please.
Agreed on Dubnyk's problems with the routine saves.

Don't take offence to the personal comments. More of a statement about the people making them than who the comments are directed towards.

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