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Houston to Des Moines ?? Or Sioux Falls, SD? UPD: Iowa Wild approved

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Old
04-06-2013, 10:32 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornwall OHL View Post
Any chance that Abbotsford would move to Des Moines? Utica will have quite the up hill battle to be successful.
NO, Cornwall, the deal that involves Abbotsford to Utica as being proposed has nothing to do w/ Des Moines or the Aeros. you have to remember the prospective operator is former G Robert Esche, which is why Utica or Mohawk Valley is under consideration if the Flames and FVE each get compensated likely by Aquillini for Vancouver to enter Abbotsford w/ the current Rivermen franchise, they easily could've picked Des Moines after being blasted from Omaha.

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04-07-2013, 02:03 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by HansH View Post
First of all, it was ONE AHL team that had its name change after an affiliation shuffle, not two teams (The I-Stars and the Chops are the same team, that is).

Second of all, the I-Stars/Chops were never the primary affiliate of the Wild, and that might bring more people to the arena than the Dallas or Anaheim prospects did.

Third, a different management team can do wonders in a market that was not well exploited by poor ownership previously.

None of this is to say that a Wild AHL team in Des Moines would be a slam dunk -- there is the real effect of the entrenched fan base for the Buccaneers, that's true -- but to dismiss it out of hand simply because the I-Stars/Chops were horridly managed is to way oversimplify the situation. I can see why such a potential shift might appeal to some in the Wild's management. Which isn't to say that I think anything is a done deal.
The Stars had improved their attendance from year 1 to 2 if i recall correctly so I think AHL hockey could definitely work there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Beyond the scope of this forum, but has been discussed on the Business of Hockey Forum as about #4 on the list of potential US locations for expansion/relocation (after Seattle/Portland, Kansas City).

FTR, Bettman has said there are two requirements to become a "NHL city". First, to have NHL-caliber arena (IOW, 17k+ seating, luxury boxes) and second, to have fiscally-able owner (net work of probably $500m+). It doesn't hurt to have few major league team competitors in town, nor major college draws, and lots of potential corporate sponsors.
Bettman is lying sack of doody. The NHL financial requirements for owners is a joke. Barrie and company did not have it. Boots?? We can go on for a long time about how well the NHL has picked owners, or prospective owners (IEH, MH, GJ, etc.).


Quote:
Originally Posted by WiscMNwildfan View Post
I would like to see the Houston Aeros move to Sioux Falls, Fargo, or Bismarck rather than Des Moines.
Need an arena that holds more than 4k. Not sure if any of those cities do..... Besides, Des Moines is just as close to MSP as those other cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
NO, Cornwall, the deal that involves Abbotsford to Utica as being proposed has nothing to do w/ Des Moines or the Aeros. you have to remember the prospective operator is former G Robert Esche, which is why Utica or Mohawk Valley is under consideration if the Flames and FVE each get compensated likely by Aquillini for Vancouver to enter Abbotsford w/ the current Rivermen franchise, they easily could've picked Des Moines after being blasted from Omaha.
No, they couldn't have picked Des Moines after Omaha. Calgary too their franchise and there was already one in Des Moines so what would Des Moines do with theirs? Sell it? To whom?.

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04-07-2013, 04:03 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Jackets Woodchuck View Post
Good point. If the Aeros leave, Houston could be out of hockey a long time. Probably not as long as Cleveland was (14 years) as it's too big of a market. But it could be 5 or 6 years.
Houston was without hockey from 1981, when the Central Hockey League Houston Apollos folded, until 1994 when the IHL Houston Aeros started (13 years). The current problem in Houston is that the current Aeros have no alternate facilty they could move in the Houston area, as Toyota Center is the only facilty with an ice plant. So either make a deal with Les Alexander, or leave town. Until a new facility is built, with an ice plant, hockey won't be played in Houston.

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04-09-2013, 10:29 AM
  #29
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Aeros apparently moving to Des Moines:

http://www.chron.com/sports/more/art...on-4420372.php

http://m.startribune.com/?id=202049101

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04-09-2013, 10:37 AM
  #30
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http://www.hockeywilderness.com/2013...-to-des-moines

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Old
04-09-2013, 12:37 PM
  #31
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Iowa again??? SERIOUSLY??? It's been tried and busted...

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04-09-2013, 12:40 PM
  #32
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It makes sense for the Wild to have their affiliate closer.

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04-09-2013, 01:05 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK Triple Threat View Post
Iowa again??? SERIOUSLY??? It's been tried and busted...
So have Winnipeg and Quebec City in the NHL, but that doesn't seem to disqualify them... what is it that you seem to have against Des Moines and pro hockey? You've had it pointed out to you before (if I recall correctly) that these are completely different circumstances than were present for the I-Stars/Chops, in terms of different business management of the franchise AND affiliation (gee, think Iowans might have a bit more connection to Wild players than they do to Stars or Ducks players?).

It _may_ be a failure when we look back on it from the future, but seriously, dude, "prior performance is no guarantee of future results". Try letting them make their effort before you bury them in this case.

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04-09-2013, 01:33 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HansH View Post
So have Winnipeg and Quebec City in the NHL, but that doesn't seem to disqualify them... what is it that you seem to have against Des Moines and pro hockey? You've had it pointed out to you before (if I recall correctly) that these are completely different circumstances than were present for the I-Stars/Chops, in terms of different business management of the franchise AND affiliation (gee, think Iowans might have a bit more connection to Wild players than they do to Stars or Ducks players?).

It _may_ be a failure when we look back on it from the future, but seriously, dude, "prior performance is no guarantee of future results". Try letting them make their effort before you bury them in this case.
It's Iowa!

Not gunning you down specifically for this Hans because you made a fair point on affiliation and location and it's reasonable but I find it really sad how minor league fans in sports make a big deal out of whom the affiliate is and don't just support regardless. Not like the major league team gives too much of a **** about you. You're just their dumping ground for extra bodies.

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04-09-2013, 01:55 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK Triple Threat View Post
It's Iowa!

Not gunning you down specifically for this Hans because you made a fair point on affiliation and location and it's reasonable but I find it really sad how minor league fans in sports make a big deal out of whom the affiliate is and don't just support regardless. Not like the major league team gives too much of a **** about you. You're just their dumping ground for extra bodies.

So its Iowa. BFD. You could say it's Glens Falls!!! or it's Springfield!!! Or pick any number of cities that have AHL teams that have a smaller population and much smaller arena than Des Moines.

In 06-07 Iowa outdrew the following AHL teams:
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...ce&season_id=8
Norfolk
Worcester
Hartford
Bridgeport
Peoria
San Antonio
Albany
Binghamton
TORONTO
Omaha
Springfield
Lowell

In 07-08 they dropped and outdrew only Quad City, Springfield, and Lowell.

However in 08-09 they again outdrew
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...e&season_id=16
Hartford
Norfolk
Rochester
Peoria
Springfield
Binghamton
Rockford
Worcester
TORONTO
Albany
Quad City
Lowell

So they outdrew TORONTO!!!!! TWICE in the 3 years of their existence. TORONTO!!!

I do not think Toronto deserves hockey since they were unable to outdraw Iowa.

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Old
04-09-2013, 03:18 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
So its Iowa. BFD. You could say it's Glens Falls!!! or it's Springfield!!! Or pick any number of cities that have AHL teams that have a smaller population and much smaller arena than Des Moines.

In 06-07 Iowa outdrew the following AHL teams:
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...ce&season_id=8
Norfolk
Worcester
Hartford
Bridgeport
Peoria
San Antonio
Albany
Binghamton
TORONTO
Omaha
Springfield
Lowell

In 07-08 they dropped and outdrew only Quad City, Springfield, and Lowell.

However in 08-09 they again outdrew
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...e&season_id=16
Hartford
Norfolk
Rochester
Peoria
Springfield
Binghamton
Rockford
Worcester
TORONTO
Albany
Quad City
Lowell

So they outdrew TORONTO!!!!! TWICE in the 3 years of their existence. TORONTO!!!

I do not think Toronto deserves hockey since they were unable to outdraw Iowa.
Outdrawing means nothing in the AHL. You have to look at percent capacity to see which cities are doing well and which are not.

A team that has 10,000 seats but only averages 5,000 fans isn't doing as well as one that has say 4,500 seats and draws 3,900

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04-09-2013, 08:38 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sens83 View Post
Outdrawing means nothing in the AHL. You have to look at percent capacity to see which cities are doing well and which are not.

A team that has 10,000 seats but only averages 5,000 fans isn't doing as well as one that has say 4,500 seats and draws 3,900
In what world? People in the seats means everything. The Wolves arena seats 16,667 for hockey. They average over 8k per game. Are you saying they are less successful than Binghamton because they draw 50% of capacity while Binghamton draws 80%? Fans make the world go around as do average ticket prices.

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04-10-2013, 12:24 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
In what world? People in the seats means everything. The Wolves arena seats 16,667 for hockey. They average over 8k per game. Are you saying they are less successful than Binghamton because they draw 50% of capacity while Binghamton draws 80%? Fans make the world go around as do average ticket prices.
You have somewhat of a fair argument, but...

Average ticket price sold?

How much are you paying to staff the arena?

How many season tickets are being sold?

Also note... if half of your 10,000-seat building is full, how many of those tickets are comps? Never mind that I tend to not trust announced attendance figures any farther than I can throw a row of seats.

If you're getting any of this data, show us. I dare you.

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04-10-2013, 07:03 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
So its Iowa. BFD. You could say it's Glens Falls!!! or it's Springfield!!! Or pick any number of cities that have AHL teams that have a smaller population and much smaller arena than Des Moines.

In 06-07 Iowa outdrew the following AHL teams:
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...ce&season_id=8
Norfolk
Worcester
Hartford
Bridgeport
Peoria
San Antonio
Albany
Binghamton
TORONTO
Omaha
Springfield
Lowell

In 07-08 they dropped and outdrew only Quad City, Springfield, and Lowell.

However in 08-09 they again outdrew
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...e&season_id=16
Hartford
Norfolk
Rochester
Peoria
Springfield
Binghamton
Rockford
Worcester
TORONTO
Albany
Quad City
Lowell

So they outdrew TORONTO!!!!! TWICE in the 3 years of their existence. TORONTO!!!

I do not think Toronto deserves hockey since they were unable to outdraw Iowa.
Lol Toronto....it's not the Leafs. It's the money scking pit AHL Franchise they run, yawn. Toronto doesn't care about that team, they really don't need an AHL team.

A third of the league is okay but also in each case three of the markets no longer even exist. I haven't the time at the moment to look up seating capacities in all these places but Binghamton can only seat just over 4K for example, if iowa holds that much more they SHOULD, as should many others.

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04-10-2013, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
In what world? People in the seats means everything. The Wolves arena seats 16,667 for hockey. They average over 8k per game. Are you saying they are less successful than Binghamton because they draw 50% of capacity while Binghamton draws 80%? Fans make the world go around as do average ticket prices.
Lets be realistic here. Go look at the MSA's of these two locations, Tom. Not even close. Bigger means more cost to operate. 8,000 in Bingo is profit, a lot. BCVMA may be a bit outdated so the operating costs might be more than a buildings size of that should be. However it's no secret it is much cheaper to run a 4K+ building vs a 16K+ building. It's all basic economics too. I'm sure your ticket prices are almost double of Bingo's but it makes sense at the same time. The people in your area make more, it's ust how it is, but your cost of living is much higher and so o. I don't think the Wolves are poor...but I also can't picture the logistics of it being a crazy profit for them when you equate those numbers and other factors in.

I live in a market similar to Bingo, like 2/3rds of the crowd are season ticket holders, it's how you survive, without them in a small market you have no prayer.

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04-10-2013, 08:46 AM
  #41
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Des Moines will have a better shot at being successful with a Wild affiliation, but an AHL team there will have definite problems securing quality home dates in the winter due to three consecutive weeks of high school state championships, and an NBDL franchise which is drawing very well. Competition for lucrative weekend dates will be furious at WFA.

Also, the Des Moines Buccaneers have a long history in that market with a loyal fan base. After the first season of the Stars, hockey attendance began to drop at WFA. It's going to take a sustained marketing effort by this new AHL franchise to keep their name in the minds of hockey fans. The Des Moines market is very crowded with AAA baseball, AAA basketball, arena football, and D-I college hoops overlapping all (or parts) of the AHL regular season.

I'm not exactly sure how this will play a second time around, but the regional affiliation with Minnesota makes good sense.

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04-10-2013, 09:03 AM
  #42
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Sooo....Blues hook up with Houston, right?

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04-10-2013, 09:05 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
Des Moines will have a better shot at being successful with a Wild affiliation, but an AHL team there will have definite problems securing quality home dates in the winter due to three consecutive weeks of high school state championships, and an NBDL franchise which is drawing very well.
The last Iowa Energy home game had a listed attendance of 2794. A recent Saturday night game broke 5000. In an arena of 16K, I'm not sure that's what I'd consider "drawing very well", unless the rest of the NBDL is that low.

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04-10-2013, 09:37 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfKeeper View Post
The last Iowa Energy home game had a listed attendance of 2794. A recent Saturday night game broke 5000. In an arena of 16K, I'm not sure that's what I'd consider "drawing very well", unless the rest of the NBDL is that low.
It is. All I could find in 5 minutes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2..._League_season

http://www.nba.com/dleague/siouxfall...ttendance.html

Highest average - 4,817
Lowest average I *bleep* you not - 218

Got 3 teams in the over 4,000, 2 under 1,000, and the rest(11 teams) hovering in between 2,000 and 3,000.

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04-10-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
It is. All I could find in 5 minutes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2..._League_season

http://www.nba.com/dleague/siouxfall...ttendance.html

Highest average - 4,817
Lowest average I *bleep* you not - 218

Got 3 teams in the over 4,000, 2 under 1,000, and the rest(11 teams) hovering in between 2,000 and 3,000.
Haha, I laughed when I saw teams with triple affiliations. I like basketball but lets be honest it;s a cheap sport. I don't know the real logistics with this league but it sounds as if all these guys have NBA cotracts and are just stashed on their minor league team incase? Most of them will never see the light of day, you need like 11 guys at best for an NBA team.

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04-10-2013, 10:44 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
You have somewhat of a fair argument, but...

Average ticket price sold?

How much are you paying to staff the arena?

How many season tickets are being sold?

Also note... if half of your 10,000-seat building is full, how many of those tickets are comps? Never mind that I tend to not trust announced attendance figures any farther than I can throw a row of seats.

If you're getting any of this data, show us. I dare you.
Fair questions.....average ticket price sold is probably around $20( A guess by me)
Price to staff the arena.....ZERO dollars, the Wolves pay a rental fee for the building and the building provides the staff. It cost the Wolves nothing extra just like other teams in the AHL. The only staff the wolves provide is their own game day staff who is being paid for that day anyway.
Season tickets sold.....again a guess by me but I'd guess around 1,000. Which in a city like Chicago with all of it's other entertainment choices is pretty good.
A city like bingo or syracuse or rochester should expect to see more season ticketholders simply because of fewer options for their money.


Oh and btw....I personally know tommy and I wouldn't suggest daring him or challenging him on numbers like that, he has a masters degree in business finance and travels the world as a business finance consultant on building projects.....just an fyi.

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04-10-2013, 11:15 AM
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Let me clear some stuff up for y'all...

The last incarnation of AHL hockey was brought to Iowa by Howard Baldwin who owned portions of the Hartford Whalers, Penguins and Minnesota North Stars. Before the first puck dropped in Iowa he sold his interests to an inexperienced ownership group in Texas. There was ONE AHL team in Des Moines. The ownership never changed, the NHL affiliation and the branding changed. If Des Moines has had two AHL clubs, one could surmise then that the Washington Bullets went belly up.

Attendance was in the middle of the pack for AHL clubs in the final season of the club. That's better than Rockford, Peoria, Omaha or Toronto for that matter.

The franchise was hamstrung by a bad lease, and ownership who treated the AHL team more like a hobby. The team was lost because the owner used the franchise as a collateral for a loan. Period.

The Wild has a vertical integration model. The AHL club in Des Moines will be owned and managed by MSE, the owner of the Wild, they also own the Xcel Energy Center. These guys are midwesterners who understand the region and who will bring a highly polished product and market the team well to the people of Iowa. These guys are total pros.

There are a lot of Wild fans around here too, and there will be a lot more interest in this team than the last as a whole if this is a go. I can promise you that. This team will have strong support. There's a lot of buzz around here about this right now.

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04-10-2013, 11:21 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Sooo....Blues hook up with Houston, right?
Hahaha. You're trolling, right?


Blues sold their affiliate to the Canucks. Wild are pulling their affiliate from Houston. Wolves need* an NHL dance partner.



*Blah, blah, blah, something about an AHL team not needing an NHL affiliate once they are an established member, which will never happen.

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04-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BK Triple Threat View Post
Lets be realistic here. Go look at the MSA's of these two locations, Tom. Not even close. Bigger means more cost to operate. 8,000 in Bingo is profit, a lot. BCVMA may be a bit outdated so the operating costs might be more than a buildings size of that should be. However it's no secret it is much cheaper to run a 4K+ building vs a 16K+ building. It's all basic economics too. I'm sure your ticket prices are almost double of Bingo's but it makes sense at the same time. The people in your area make more, it's ust how it is, but your cost of living is much higher and so o. I don't think the Wolves are poor...but I also can't picture the logistics of it being a crazy profit for them when you equate those numbers and other factors in.

I live in a market similar to Bingo, like 2/3rds of the crowd are season ticket holders, it's how you survive, without them in a small market you have no prayer.
Unless you have have the numbers associated with running the arena, you should not make statements as such concerning the costs. The costs for running the arena will involve things such as energy costs, which are not the same throughout the country, labor costs, which are also not the same throughout the country, rental costs, which vary from arena to arena, insurnace costs, whcih are not the same throughout the country (seeing a pattern here?). This does not even include any other expenses such as for running the team, affiliate agreements, etc.

I live 10 miles from Cook County Illinois and 15 miles from Wisconsin and the costs to operate my vehicle are significantly less than in cook county and more than in Wisconsin.

That's without even talking about revenue streams. The Wolves have one of the highest ticket prices in the AHL. Other teams much lower.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
Des Moines will have a better shot at being successful with a Wild affiliation, but an AHL team there will have definite problems securing quality home dates in the winter due to three consecutive weeks of high school state championships, and an NBDL franchise which is drawing very well. Competition for lucrative weekend dates will be furious at WFA.

Also, the Des Moines Buccaneers have a long history in that market with a loyal fan base. After the first season of the Stars, hockey attendance began to drop at WFA. It's going to take a sustained marketing effort by this new AHL franchise to keep their name in the minds of hockey fans. The Des Moines market is very crowded with AAA baseball, AAA basketball, arena football, and D-I college hoops overlapping all (or parts) of the AHL regular season.

I'm not exactly sure how this will play a second time around, but the regional affiliation with Minnesota makes good sense.
They had these same issues before and did well. They will have to have a better front office and continued marketing but if the job they did in Houston is any indication, Des Moines will have an excellent staff and will be marketed. Downtown Houston is basically dead after 5:30 PM, there is hardly anything around the Toyota center other than the Hilton and the Grove (really pricey) restaurant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aparch View Post
Hahaha. You're trolling, right?

Blues sold their affiliate to the Canucks. Wild are pulling their affiliate from Houston. Wolves need* an NHL dance partner.

*Blah, blah, blah, something about an AHL team not needing an NHL affiliate once they are an established member, which will never happen.
Wolves do not require an affiliation and not sure they really need one but they will get one. There are a few teams that financially could pull off being without an affiliation. Hershey is one and the Wolves are another.

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04-10-2013, 12:41 PM
  #50
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Into the arena & market issues, a little warning.

When the WCHL was absorbed into the ECHL, seven teams made the jump:

Alaska (Sullivan Arena, 6,000)
Bakersfield (Rabobank, 9,000)
Fresno (at the time, Save Mart Center, 15,000)
Idaho (pick your corporate name of the year here, 5,000)
Las Vegas (Orleans Arena, 7,500 or so)
Long Beach (Long Beach Arena, 11,000)
San Diego (13,000)

The teams alive today... Alaska, Bakersfield, Idaho, and Las Vegas. The teams with the bigger arenas croaked.

Yes, I do think there's an arena trend, and it matters in the AHL. However, yes, there's a bit of an apples-oranges factor in the comparison. The AHL is far more vital to the NHL, the affiliations are real (I believe most of the E's affiliations are paper, and usually involve only a handful of players per team in the best situations), and there's more effort to travel more teams to more cities than in the E.

Chicago's a historical outlier because it came on like gangbusters and has kept momentum going for some time. However, 1,000 season tickets? If someday, for whatever reason, there's a downturn, your goose is cooked. Even with a building lease that's potentially very beneficial, depending on walkup is dangerous business.

Thing is... I'm not surprised by Houston. I am surprised that Des Moines built that big an arena. That's going to be an issue, even with a Wild affiliation.

Then I can sense big market v small market issues. Hello, Houston, meet Binghamton. Some big city folk with big city egos would prefer more of Cleveland and Baltimore and Cincinnati and Atlanta and less Binghamton and Adirondack and Springfield. BUUUUUT the arena game doesn't always work in favor of this arrangement. This hockey thing is a curious beast.

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