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Value of the MacKinnon Pick

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Old
04-09-2013, 12:06 AM
  #151
HockeyThoughts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Thank god your not a GM. That is the most ridiculous trade proposal I've ever seen on HF.
Really is an atrocious offer. Would absolutely gut the team for 1 unproven prospect.. Ridiculous.

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04-09-2013, 01:11 AM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor wearing goon View Post
Canes would probably trade our top 3 pick, Skinner and Pitkanen for a guy like Joe Thornton. I know we might have to add, so maybe a 2nd or Rask too?

If you ask the Canes experts over on our forum, they'll tell you we're sorely lacking a playmaker and leader, so Joe Thornton would be a perfect addition.
Hahahahahahaha you got yourself a deal. I'd take the pick straight up, or Skinner straight up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Why?

There's a reason the scouting services disagree with you but I'd like to hear your reasoning on why Mackinnon should be drafted over Jones' "whatever"... Personally I think there's 1 top player in this draft and 1 guy just beneath him and then 4 players you could flip a coin on. Mackinnon is one of those players. I wouldnt be surprised if he fell to 5 or 6.

His size is going to play against him. 6 ft my rear but we can argue that some other time. Some of his strengths in the QMJHL are going to be questioned at higher levels. He's not afraid to go into the dirty areas but those areas are a lot dirtier in the NHL and can he do it with his size and frame. His vision is second to none but he certainly has the comfort of playing with Frk and Drouin. Two other players who read the ice extremely well. There's also the "Q" hanging over his head. It's really going to depend on who has the picks 3-6 and how they play out. Nurse is climbing the charts and if a team is sitting at 4 with a choice of Mackinnon, Nurse or Barkov and they're a forward heavy team (Edmonton) what would they do?

It's not out of the possibility he falls to 5 or 6. Barkov and Nichushkin have NHL preferred size and some teams are going to weigh that in comparison. Size is a huge advantage, like it or not. If the other attributes are even or just slightly below, but one guy's 2-4 inches taller with a bigger frame, 9 times out of 10, the team's going to draft the bigger player. Just the way it goes. It wont come into play with Drouin because his skillset is just simply better than the other 3 guys.

The worst thing to happen to Mackinnon was being as good as he was at 15. The Crosby comparisons and the expectations just got out of hand. It seems he's leveling out some while others continue to mature. It happens all the time. Look at the way Domi has matured this year.

It'll be interesting to see what teams think in that 3-6 range.
There's nothing wrong with wanting Jones or Drouin over Mackinnon. I just personally would take Mack. If he's still there at #5 or #6, I'd tentatively offer Couture or Burns if that team wanted to make a trade straight up. I think if anything Drouin's skills have a higher translation risk. And as much as I absolutely love Jones, I just wouldn't pick him first because I believe in forwards 1st overall. To be clear, I love Drouin and Jones, I just like Mackinnon a little more. I don't have any insight about it. I just like his style, and admittedly he's the best fit for my team. His speed, hands, north-south game, smarts, he just really doesn't have outstanding flaws. Mackinnon is the victim of over-scouting. Happens. As far as point totals go, Mack has more shots on goal, but less goals than Jo. Just something to keep an eye on.

Couturier dropped because of over-scouting and he's made 4 other teams look foolish. I'm not saying Mack won't drop because I obviously can't see the future, I'm just saying if it were up to me I would take him first.

But I think it's a little silly to say that Drouin's size won't be a hinderance but it will for Mackinnon?

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04-09-2013, 06:18 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
The Huberdeau for Galychenyuk makes logical sense and isnt much of a reach to pull something like that off. The key is you have to do it before players start to show full NHL potential.

Buffalo made the trade with Vancouver similar to this proposed trade where they traded Kassain to Vancouver for Hodgson. They were picked at roughly the same spot in the draft in consecutive years.

Last year was the first NHL play for both players. They traded the players for the perception of depth need. Buffalo felt they were fine with wingers but needed a center.

This is where these traded make sense when you are strong at one position in terms of youth players but are short at another position.
The hodgson trade happened for a multitude of reasons, and unless I'm mistaken, one of which was was tht Vancouver did not like the kids attitude. Even if I am wrong, trades like that are extremely rare.

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04-09-2013, 07:33 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Reinhart View Post
There is no way Leafs get a third over-all pick for Gardiner and their 1st.

Would any Leafs' fans be happy with that package if the shoe was on the other foot? I doubt it. Gardiner is a good piece, but he is not a 'franchise' player. The Toronto 1st would have to have a ridiculous amount of luck to draft a franchise player with.

Teams need as much elite talent as possible to win championships, imo. Calgary will not trade that pick for all the owski's in the world if they end up with it after the season/lottery. The fanbase would revolt, and rightfully so. It would seriously take a ridiculous over-payment and it just wouldn't be worth it.
so true. this thread always pops up and no-one ever trades away the top-tier guys, do they?

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04-09-2013, 10:28 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Hahahahahahaha you got yourself a deal. I'd take the pick straight up, or Skinner straight up.



There's nothing wrong with wanting Jones or Drouin over Mackinnon. I just personally would take Mack. If he's still there at #5 or #6, I'd tentatively offer Couture or Burns if that team wanted to make a trade straight up. I think if anything Drouin's skills have a higher translation risk. And as much as I absolutely love Jones, I just wouldn't pick him first because I believe in forwards 1st overall. To be clear, I love Drouin and Jones, I just like Mackinnon a little more. I don't have any insight about it. I just like his style, and admittedly he's the best fit for my team. His speed, hands, north-south game, smarts, he just really doesn't have outstanding flaws. Mackinnon is the victim of over-scouting. Happens. As far as point totals go, Mack has more shots on goal, but less goals than Jo. Just something to keep an eye on.

Couturier dropped because of over-scouting and he's made 4 other teams look foolish. I'm not saying Mack won't drop because I obviously can't see the future, I'm just saying if it were up to me I would take him first.

But I think it's a little silly to say that Drouin's size won't be a hinderance but it will for Mackinnon?
Fair enough in regards to your opinion on Mackinnon. As for the size issue, it's different for Drouin because of his nature, his skating away from the puck and his pure offensive ability. He finds openings in the ice as well as any player under 20. Not to mention those hands dont grow on trees. They are elite.

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Old
04-09-2013, 10:35 AM
  #156
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If the Flames are in 3rd, and Florida is in 2nd at the draft, would Florida trade Huberdeau for Calgarys 3rd overall pick (mackinnon/drouin)?

Im actually curious about this, i dont think they would, but having both Mack and Drouin for the next 20 years is pretty enticing.

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04-09-2013, 10:35 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
If I was GM of the Sabres I'd offer Vanek or Miller, Grigorenko and our 1st (should be 5-8 but who knows with how tight the standings are and lottery). I think that's a pretty substantial offer. If it was someone who has centers, switch Girgorenko to Ennis if need be.
wut.... you have a top 5-8 pick and want to do that

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04-09-2013, 11:16 AM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
If the Flames are in 3rd, and Florida is in 2nd at the draft, would Florida trade Huberdeau for Calgarys 3rd overall pick (mackinnon/drouin)?

Im actually curious about this, i dont think they would, but having both Mack and Drouin for the next 20 years is pretty enticing.
I wouldn't see the point from Floridas POV

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04-09-2013, 12:07 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
I wouldn't see the point from Floridas POV
Drouin and Mack are good buddies? Play well together?

I agree they wouldnt do it (proven player>unproven), but was just curious.

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04-09-2013, 12:11 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
Drouin and Mack are good buddies? Play well together?

I agree they wouldnt do it (proven player>unproven), but was just curious.
I know that, I just don't think any reasonable GM would be willing to deal a future star, who's right about to break out, only to start over again because the new kids are buddies.

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04-09-2013, 12:33 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
If the Flames are in 3rd, and Florida is in 2nd at the draft, would Florida trade Huberdeau for Calgarys 3rd overall pick (mackinnon/drouin)?

Im actually curious about this, i dont think they would, but having both Mack and Drouin for the next 20 years is pretty enticing.
It's unlikely Tallon trades his drafted players away.

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04-09-2013, 12:42 PM
  #162
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When was the last time a lottery pick was traded for anything other than a slightly lesser lottery pick + something small, or as part of a package?

It never happens. No team is going to give up assets that help you out now for something that may help you out in the future. And on the other side of the coin, a lottery team can not give up the one thing that went right about their season for anything less than something that can make up forgoing the boon of having "Player X" patrol your team for the next decade or so, most of which on a cheap ass contract.


This draft reminds me of 2002. You have a tier of 3 surefire stars, then another 5 or so players who project nicely as NHL players, then everyone else. For that reason, I can see wheeling and dealing between the top 3 to ensure that Colorado, Florida and Carolina get who they want. I can only hope that Carolina ends up with Seth (my preference).


Last edited by Finlandia WOAT: 04-09-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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04-09-2013, 12:45 PM
  #163
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This year's top 10 is disgustingly talented, if you are a team drafting at 16-30 don't expect to move into the top 10 without giving away something big alongside your 1st round pick. (if you are just going to add a 2nd, trust me most teams can match or better that offer especially those with multiple picks in the 2nd)

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04-09-2013, 12:55 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor wearing goon View Post
Canes would probably trade our top 3 pick, Skinner and Pitkanen for a guy like Joe Thornton. I know we might have to add, so maybe a 2nd or Rask too?

If you ask the Canes experts over on our forum, they'll tell you we're sorely lacking a playmaker and leader, so Joe Thornton would be a perfect addition.
I love sarcasm, even if you are dead on about some of those clown "proposals for rebuilding" that have been going on over there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kenfury View Post
Historical perspective.

2001 2nd overall cost Yashin (bad deal)
2004 from 8th to 4th cost a second.
2008 from 7th to 5th cost a second and a third.
As pointed out, that's purely situational. I could see the Canes at #3 moving down to somewhere in the 6-8 range if Jones goes #1 or 2, but asking for a ridiculous return in exchange. Like team moving up would be giving up not just the 6-8, but also quite possibly their next first as well (or an additional one in this draft if they have one).

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04-09-2013, 01:44 PM
  #165
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I think you'll be surprised when you seen Mckinnon go 4thor even as low as 6th in the draft. But talking with some scouts at the hali games he's not really a top 2 for a couple teams. If I was Canes I would take Dourin at 3rd if and I mean IF he's there... He has speed and hands of silk...


Last edited by MaritimeHockeyNut: 04-09-2013 at 01:57 PM.
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04-09-2013, 03:12 PM
  #166
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How many owskis and "best" goaltenders not in the NHL would the leafs have to give up to get Calgary's pick?

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04-09-2013, 04:06 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
If the Flames are in 3rd, and Florida is in 2nd at the draft, would Florida trade Huberdeau for Calgarys 3rd overall pick (mackinnon/drouin)?

Im actually curious about this, i dont think they would, but having both Mack and Drouin for the next 20 years is pretty enticing.
Noooope.

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04-09-2013, 04:09 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by lebdafor norris View Post
How many owskis and "best" goaltenders not in the NHL would the leafs have to give up to get Calgary's pick?
morgan reilly owski + 10th

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04-09-2013, 05:01 PM
  #169
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If they get a top 3 pick , I can see the Lightning moving down if Jones is off the board. They are extremely deep organizationally at forward, especially at center (Stamkos, VL, TJ, Namestikov). Obviously you make room if MacKinnon is drafted, but they are certainly in a position to listen to offers.

Stud D prospect + top 10 pick

More likely, they try and get Jones and pair him with Hedman

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04-10-2013, 09:10 AM
  #170
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Just my opinion here, but if the Flames do end up with a top 3 pick this year, I would absolutely demand overpayment to move it. From the leafs I'd only be interested in something like....

Reilly
Biggs
1st '13 OR '14 (our choice, at the draft)
2nd (in the opposite year from the 1st)

I understand that's a lot, but I'm not at all motivated to surrender a top 3 pick in this draft, either. It would have to be an offer that I absolutely can't refuse. It would have to be overpayment to the point that most GM's wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole for fear of getting fired if the prospect in question busts.

I guess that means that in my opinion, if Calgary gets a top 3 pick, it isn't going anywhere. But then again, it's not at all up to me. It's Feaster's call. It sucks that that fact makes me so nervous.

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04-10-2013, 09:22 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlames View Post
Just my opinion here, but if the Flames do end up with a top 3 pick this year, I would absolutely demand overpayment to move it. From the leafs I'd only be interested in something like....

Reilly
Biggs
1st '13 OR '14 (our choice, at the draft)
2nd (in the opposite year from the 1st)

I understand that's a lot, but I'm not at all motivated to surrender a top 3 pick in this draft, either. It would have to be an offer that I absolutely can't refuse. It would have to be overpayment to the point that most GM's wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole for fear of getting fired if the prospect in question busts.

I guess that means that in my opinion, if Calgary gets a top 3 pick, it isn't going anywhere. But then again, it's not at all up to me. It's Feaster's call. It sucks that that fact makes me so nervous.
I still wouldnt do that.

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04-10-2013, 09:33 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
I still wouldnt do that.
I'm still on the fence about it too but it is a BIG return for a single prospect. If I'm at #1, I don't do it. #2 or #3, I'd have a lot of trouble turning that down. (I think Jones is clearly #1 and the most valuable prospect in his class), but yeah, still dicey. Bottom line is I don't see us moving a top 3 pick if we end up with one. It gets too crazy for either party to gamble on.

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04-10-2013, 10:32 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
JVR-MacKinnon-Kessel
Kulemin-Kadri-Lupul
MacArthur-Bozak-Frattin
Komarov-McClement-Enforcer



I'd trade our 1st and Jake Gardiner.
I love you, Leafs fans. Never change.

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04-10-2013, 11:41 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlames View Post
I'm still on the fence about it too but it is a BIG return for a single prospect. If I'm at #1, I don't do it. #2 or #3, I'd have a lot of trouble turning that down. (I think Jones is clearly #1 and the most valuable prospect in his class), but yeah, still dicey. Bottom line is I don't see us moving a top 3 pick if we end up with one. It gets too crazy for either party to gamble on.
Nope. Still wouldn't do it. The Flames need quality, not quantity.

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04-10-2013, 11:45 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by lebdafor norris View Post
How many owskis and "best" goaltenders not in the NHL would the leafs have to give up to get Calgary's pick?
This is a funny joke, you should keep telling it.

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