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Should we buyout Jokinen?

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Old
04-10-2013, 11:25 AM
  #26
mzappa
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Nice


This single fact truly exposes the lack-of-depth on the Jets: Jokinen playing the point on the PP
...which by the way, if you didn't know, is one of the worst in the league....

Hopefully the off-season yields two top-6 forwards joining for 2013-14.


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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
It would be worth it if only for the fact that it removes the option of playing him on the point on the PP!

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04-10-2013, 11:33 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by bazaaa View Post
This. Why on earth put him on the 2nd line if he's not earning it.
Totally agree. The contract really isn't that unreasonable. Let him center the 3rd or 4th line (depending on whether Slater can play 3rd center minutes). They realize that he's not the 2nd center they're looking for, so let Scheifele play 2nd center. I think at one time they had seen Cormier move into that 3rd or 4th spot..............but its fairly clear now that he is a career AHL'er.

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04-10-2013, 11:34 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Not that he should be playing the 2nd line, because really he has been bad most of the year, but playing devil advocate here, why does Jokinen need to earn 2nd line minutes, when allot of people here think/thought another... a little younger center should have been on the second line without earning it?
Jokinen didn't have to earn 2nd line minutes. It was given to him. He's been given the opportunity and hasn't done anything with it. To me that's a big difference versus what you're saying.

I won't comment on your other portion, as I assume you mean Scheifele? If you mean Burmistrov, well I'd argue his performance on the 2nd line, for the small time he was on it, already demonstrated better results than Jokinen.

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04-10-2013, 11:39 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzappa View Post
Nice


This single fact truly exposes the lack-of-depth on the Jets: Jokinen playing the point on the PP
...which by the way, if you didn't know, is one of the worst in the league....

Hopefully the off-season yields two top-6 forwards joining for 2013-14.
It isn't really a depth issue. That is what confuses the heck out of me.

Toby, Byfuglien, Bogosian, Postma and Clitsome are all good options for the point on the powerplay. We arguably have too many such D men, I have no idea why Olli is being forced into that role.

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04-10-2013, 11:57 AM
  #30
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Only if it makes sense and we either need the cap space to sign a player, or the cap space to take advantage of another teams situation.

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04-10-2013, 12:04 PM
  #31
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I think he's still one of four best centers and we're not near the cap so why buy him out?

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04-10-2013, 12:07 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
you don't buy him out. you play him on a 3rd line where his performance dictates he should be.
BOOM, exactly

and in a contract year next year, i dont see him repeating, especially if he has a full offseason and prep to a full real season

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04-10-2013, 12:12 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Not that he should be playing the 2nd line, because really he has been bad most of the year, but playing devil advocate here, why does Jokinen need to earn 2nd line minutes, when allot of people here think/thought another... a little younger center should have been on the second line without earning it?
gagnon?
williamson?

who is it you are talking about?

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04-10-2013, 12:25 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
Jokinen didn't have to earn 2nd line minutes. It was given to him. He's been given the opportunity and hasn't done anything with it. To me that's a big difference versus what you're saying.

I won't comment on your other portion, as I assume you mean Scheifele? If you mean Burmistrov, well I'd argue his performance on the 2nd line, for the small time he was on it, already demonstrated better results than Jokinen.
Of course it was given to him.
That is why he was signed.
Do you think he would come here otherwise?

Chevy thought he was good enough to center the first or second line.
Hell, 3/4 of this board thought that when he was signed.

He just hasn't panned out that way.

And, as a veteran player, he is given the leeway to work out his lack of productivity.
As opposed to a younger player, who only a couple years in the league.

So may say, he was given a little too much leeway, and I could agree with that, but that is coaching in the NHL, every coach pretty well does that.

Edit: It doesnt just happen in the NHL, it happens in all sports.


Last edited by King Woodballs: 04-10-2013 at 12:33 PM.
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04-10-2013, 12:32 PM
  #35
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Seems like he's the beneficiary of the team's weird double-standard. No idea why he hasn't been placed on the third line. It suits his game. Put some more playmaking skill on that second line.

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04-10-2013, 12:41 PM
  #36
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I would say that you keep him but for two things;

1) If we need the cap space to acquire useful UFAs then it makes sense to get rid of one that is useless

2) If Noel keeps him on the 2nd line, that line will not improve, nor will our young forward who should get a chance on that line (Scheifele, Burmi). We're all saying here that Joker belongs on the third line, and he does, but Noel doesn't seem to think so. If we take away Jokinen as the option, maybe our youngsters get a chance.

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04-10-2013, 01:36 PM
  #37
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Problem is with Jokinen is, he isn't being used right:

He hasn't worked on the point on the PP since his FLA years. He has had great success in deep though in CGY.
He doesn't work well with Kane. He has worked well when he's not with Kane.

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04-10-2013, 01:45 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Of course it was given to him.
That is why he was signed.
Do you think he would come here otherwise?

Chevy thought he was good enough to center the first or second line.
Hell, 3/4 of this board thought that when he was signed.

He just hasn't panned out that way.

And, as a veteran player, he is given the leeway to work out his lack of productivity.
As opposed to a younger player, who only a couple years in the league.

So may say, he was given a little too much leeway, and I could agree with that, but that is coaching in the NHL, every coach pretty well does that.

Edit: It doesnt just happen in the NHL, it happens in all sports.
right, but you were asking why we thought he had to earn 2nd line minutes. I was responding that he didn't have to. he came here to play 2nd line minutes. I don't think anyone is arguing that he has to earn those minutes. I think we're saying that he hasn't done anything with those minutes, and thus should be demoted at this point. 40 games is plenty of leeway in my book, even for a veteran.

to be clear, I was in favor of the signing, I thought he'd be a good 2nd line option. i was patient for the first 20-25 games, thinking he'd work through his issues. But it's painfully obvious he isn't.

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04-10-2013, 01:50 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Problem is with Jokinen is, he isn't being used right:

He hasn't worked on the point on the PP since his FLA years. He has had great success in deep though in CGY.
He doesn't work well with Kane. He has worked well when he's not with Kane.
I agree. Kane and Jokinen are similar style of players in that they create their own success, and Kane obviously creates much more than Joker at this stage, (especially since he's that much faster) and so Joker, on a line with Kane, cannot make himself any opportunities, and was never really a passer. He needs to be the big dog on his line, and needs to be using his weight down low on the powerplay.

I think Joker's lack of success is 60% Joker 40% Noel. Particularly because the PP experiment has been failing for so bloody long at this point.

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04-10-2013, 01:51 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazaaa View Post
This. Why on earth put him on the 2nd line if he's not earning it.
Better yet, why the ******* does he still get PP time

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04-10-2013, 01:57 PM
  #41
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Jokinen Over Last 4 Years

5v5
SeasonRelQoCOZSRelCorsiG/60A1/60P/60
2009-2010 0.586 51.8 4.9 0.51 0.61 1.69
2010-2011 1.006 52.9 -6.9 0.66 0.55 1.75
2011-2012 2.056 47.9 -6.3 0.65 0.75 1.80
2012-2013 0.031 53.1 -3.5 0.50 0.00 0.90
Points to note:
*he isn't facing as tough of competition as he used to so you'd expect a beter RelCorsi than 2010 + 2011, which is what you get... but of course still not that nice, because he's not really a 2way C despite what some have stated...
*his 5v5 goalscoring is pretty much exactly in the ranges we should have expected/predicted
*does anyone see where the albatross is??? his primary assists... they are blank, none, zilch.

As you can see, we're pretty much getting EXACTLY the Jokinen we should (and I did) suspect... Except, the apparent lack of any primary assists what-so-ever. Now don't go off saying he is a shoot first guy and what-not, because he is the same Jokinen as the 3 seasons prior and was getting that. The problem here is he has spent way too much time with Kane which hasn't worked at all.


5v4
SeasonG/60A1/60P/60
2009-2010 0.83 1.11 3.33
2010-2011 1.29 2.06 5.15
2011-2012 2.18 2.43 5.82
2012-2013 0.00 0.69 0.69
Wow... definite fall down here.
Powerplay production is never really consistent due to extremely small sample size throughout the season, so the variance between 2009-12 is pretty normal. The 2012-13 year is not.
Jokinen was never used at the point in CGY and that's because it doesn't fit his game. He was used on the opposite wing of Iginla or in front of the net and he was pretty ****ing successful there.


Conclusion
Get Jokinen on the third line.
Why? Because he sucks? No... because Kane-Jokinen does.not.work. and you want Kane getting bigger minutes more so than Jokinen. Kane has scored most of his goals away from Jokinen with less TOI. Jets scored twice as many goals per min with Jokinen-Peluso than Jokinen-Kane.
Switch Burmistrov and Jokinen. This way you have three lines that have scoring threats, Kane's production will rise, Jokinen's production will rise, you have your top6 producers per a minute in your top6; it's your basic win-win.

Keep Jokinen on the PP but get him away from the top of the umbrella
Jokinen was a great PP point guy in FLA. He's not the guy he was in Florida though... he's the guy they had in CGY. Calgary has shown though that he can still be a great PP weapon, but down low.
Jets like having three guys high and two low but maybe what they should do is:
Wheeler-Little-Ladd
Byfuglien-Enstrom
^Keep the same umbrella format with Wheeler and Ladd switching up high.
Jokinen-Burmistrov-Kane
Bogosian-Clitsome/Postma/?Trouba?
^Keep the wingers lower and run the play more down low


Last edited by garret9: 04-10-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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04-10-2013, 02:15 PM
  #42
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Jokinen should be on the right side of the umbrella, where we don't have many guys that do left handed one-timers. Kane takes way too long to shoot.

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04-10-2013, 02:50 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Jokinen should be on the right side of the umbrella, where we don't have many guys that do left handed one-timers. Kane takes way too long to shoot.
I agree Kane takes to long to shoot I would also say the same about joki most of his shots are wrist shot or snap shots I haven't seen him use a one time slap per yet.our set up in the other teams end is the big problem we never have anyone in the slot.in Santorelli first couple of games he has had opurtunities from the slot and when this happened it makes you realize we never have anyone in that scoring area like how the caps use Brouwer on the pp.i think this is a reflection of our coaching,Santorelli comes from a different system and is still doing what he was taught I'm sure within a couple of games he will be playing solely on the boards like the rest of the team.

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04-10-2013, 02:58 PM
  #44
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Maybe he shouldn't be bought out but what do you do with him then I expect our centres to be Little,Burmi,Scheifele,Slater in that order next year I think joki will just be taking important minutes away from our developing players next year.our Goal should be to acquire an upgrade on joki and at that time little can move to rw and if Scheifele is not ready then little goes back to centre but if joki is part of the lines I think we will have the same problems as this year.we should be looking at guys like rebeiro,bozak,Roy,Stastny,pavelski,and maybe even briere as part of a bigger package.


Last edited by Zhamnov10: 04-10-2013 at 03:46 PM.
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04-10-2013, 03:12 PM
  #45
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I think the problem is kane is such a hard player to work around, he kinda wastes his linemates when he is out there. Im not taking anything away from kanes ability he is a great young players, but he is a shoot first type player, in fact he shoots way too often when there is a open pass which is much better option.

Not to say you shouldn't put good players with kane, you just need the right type of players. Jokinen is best used as a puck possession, dictating the play type guy, and when the puck works its way to kane on a cycle or breaking into the zone, Kane just fires it onto the net

If you put two guys who can work the cycle and help maintain puck possession on Jokinens wing I think you would get the most from him

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04-10-2013, 03:59 PM
  #46
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I think the problem is kane is such a hard player to work around, he kinda wastes his linemates when he is out there. Im not taking anything away from kanes ability he is a great young players, but he is a shoot first type player, in fact he shoots way too often when there is a open pass which is much better option.

Not to say you shouldn't put good players with kane, you just need the right type of players. Jokinen is best used as a puck possession, dictating the play type guy, and when the puck works its way to kane on a cycle or breaking into the zone, Kane just fires it onto the net

If you put two guys who can work the cycle and help maintain puck possession on Jokinens wing I think you would get the most from him

completely disagree.

I personally feel this is a myth, and that because he shoots a lot and is a "shoot first" player, people assume he does this.

From the games I've watched Kane's fine at dishing the puck off, the only time i've seen him blatantly ignore passing is when he's had a two goal game and is trying his damndest to net the hatty.

Kane does pass the puck, he's set his linemates up a number of times, its just we don't look for it.

Carrying that forward, he's also had absolutely garbage linemates most of the season and he's forced to shoot or he has to wait for his linemates to gain the zone and risk turning the puck over.

On our power play absolutely no one shoots enough.

I personally think Kanes shortcomings as a passer or "team player" are overblown because people expect them to be bad (confirmation bias, etc), when in reality I'd say he's got a pretty good on ice IQ.

he's definitly been much better this season then last.


as For joki, the whole crux of the issue was Burmi.

Burmi pissed of noel so he took him off that line and everything went to hell.




obviously a gross over simplification and i'm only half serious, but i would really like to see burmi back on that line- the whole team played better with him up there.

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04-10-2013, 04:23 PM
  #47
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completely disagree.

I personally feel this is a myth, and that because he shoots a lot and is a "shoot first" player, people assume he does this.

From the games I've watched Kane's fine at dishing the puck off, the only time i've seen him blatantly ignore passing is when he's had a two goal game and is trying his damndest to net the hatty.

Kane does pass the puck, he's set his linemates up a number of times, its just we don't look for it.

Carrying that forward, he's also had absolutely garbage linemates most of the season and he's forced to shoot or he has to wait for his linemates to gain the zone and risk turning the puck over.

On our power play absolutely no one shoots enough.

I personally think Kanes shortcomings as a passer or "team player" are overblown because people expect them to be bad (confirmation bias, etc), when in reality I'd say he's got a pretty good on ice IQ.

he's definitly been much better this season then last.
I can argue the exact same, that you are looking for reason to think he has improved in those areas. While he has improved, he still makes many bad decisions with the puck. I specifically watch for it with him, since who else are you going to watch on that line.

I like Kane and he is great complementary piece, but let's face it. He has terrible hockey IQ, does not see the lanes, terrible PP player, does not help teammates out. Doing it every once and while doesn't count, hell Anthony freaking Peluso had at least one real nice little play this year.

The good news is that who cares? The guy is fantastically naturally skilled and can put up 30g 5v5. Not many can do that. He will be a real solid player for us for a lot of years, we can find guys to fill other roles. He can make a line a dangerous offensive force all by himself, making 3 scoring lines that much easier in a couple of years.

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04-10-2013, 04:33 PM
  #48
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I can argue the exact same, that you are looking for reason to think he has improved in those areas. While he has improved, he still makes many bad decisions with the puck. I specifically watch for it with him, since who else are you going to watch on that line.

I like Kane and he is great complementary piece, but let's face it. He has terrible hockey IQ, does not see the lanes, terrible PP player, does not help teammates out. Doing it every once and while doesn't count, hell Anthony freaking Peluso had at least one real nice little play this year.

The good news is that who cares? The guy is fantastically naturally skilled and can put up 30g 5v5. Not many can do that. He will be a real solid player for us for a lot of years, we can find guys to fill other roles. He can make a line a dangerous offensive force all by himself, making 3 scoring lines that much easier in a couple of years.

While agree it really doesn't matter, I don't think its possible for him to be fourth in primary assists per 60 5v5 on our team while "having no hockey iq".

3rd of all regular forwards (peluso is #1)

If he were just sort of in the mix, down around sixth or so, then i'd lend some credence to that, but 3rd of all regualrs in 5v5 primary assist production (60th in the league with players 20+ games). I just don't think you can do that with bad iq.

Again i'm in a position where my eyes say he's not as bad as everyone thinks, and the numbers seem to say the same (unfortunately i don't know of how better to qualify "good" passing then with primary assists).

I'm not saying he's a great playmaker, but i think your IQ/passing ability has to be at least average to reach those numbers.

Maybe you don't, but in that case we'll just have to agree to disagree because were obviously using a different logic process.

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04-10-2013, 04:38 PM
  #49
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I can argue the exact same, that you are looking for reason to think he has improved in those areas. While he has improved, he still makes many bad decisions with the puck. I specifically watch for it with him, since who else are you going to watch on that line.

I like Kane and he is great complementary piece, but let's face it. He has terrible hockey IQ, does not see the lanes, terrible PP player, does not help teammates out. Doing it every once and while doesn't count, hell Anthony freaking Peluso had at least one real nice little play this year.

The good news is that who cares? The guy is fantastically naturally skilled and can put up 30g 5v5. Not many can do that. He will be a real solid player for us for a lot of years, we can find guys to fill other roles. He can make a line a dangerous offensive force all by himself, making 3 scoring lines that much easier in a couple of years.
Kane's got 15 assists - more than guys with high hockey IQ like Antro and Wellwood. I think his passing is underrated - he's made beauty feeds to the slot many times this year, only to have them squandered by Mittens and Joker. The guy consistently gains the zone and makes stuff happen, even during games where the rest of the team played like crap and couldn't skate their way out of a paper bag. It would be interesting indeed to see him with some complementary talent on his line for a sustained stretch of games.

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04-10-2013, 04:48 PM
  #50
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GP G A P +/- $

Jokeinen 41 7 6 13 -17 4.5/season

Wellwood 34 4 8 12 0 1.4/season


Who's the better player and worth his salary, hint one plays 2nd line, PP, ton of minutes, the other sits out, 3rd line, 4th line, plays the PP infrequently.

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