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Game 40 | April 11, 2013 | San Jose Sharks @ Detroit Red Wings (Mod note #692)

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04-10-2013, 06:01 PM
  #51
RedWingsNow*
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Like Abdelkader, Tootoo's game would not translate well to a scoring line with Pavel Datsyuk. Right now he has the ability to forecheck and run around, with Datsyuk, he can't do that.
Yeah, I disagree. Tootoo is a good hockey player when you let him play

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04-10-2013, 06:25 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Yeah, I disagree. Tootoo is a good hockey player when you let him play
Nothing in Tootoo's history would suggest he'd be any more of a "good hockey player" than Abdelkader, given Abby's play and history.

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04-10-2013, 06:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Nothing in Tootoo's history would suggest he'd be any more of a "good hockey player" than Abdelkader, given Abby's play and history.
Tootoo is more useful. He isn't fake tough like Gator.

Both should never be on Datsyuk's wing, but i would take Tootoo over Justin "Worthless" Abdelkader.

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04-10-2013, 06:41 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Tootoo is more useful. He isn't fake tough like Gator.

Both should never be on Datsyuk's wing, but i would take Tootoo over Justin "Worthless" Abdelkader.
Tootoo may well be more useful in a 4th line fighting role (the usefulness of which is debatable at best), but there is absolutely nothing in his game that would make him a "good hockey player" if he were simply allowed to play, let alone allowed to play with Datsyuk.

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04-10-2013, 06:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Nothing in Tootoo's history would suggest he'd be any more of a "good hockey player" than Abdelkader, given Abby's play and history.
Maybe not on paper but I remember watching him before and saying, "Damn, that Tootoo is a sunnova *****." He was a pain back then and when I heard the Wings had signed him, I thought it would be awesome if he could be that pain in the butt while still chipping in goals every now and then for us. But you know, different team and different system -- things get lost in translation. Maybe our players don't compliment him. I also sometimes wonder if Tootoo's play is suffering because he doesn't have a Shea Weber to watch his back when he stirs up more sheet than he can handle. I don't think he works as the go-to guy.

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04-10-2013, 06:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Tootoo may well be more useful in a 4th line fighting role (the usefulness of which is debatable at best), but there is absolutely nothing in his game that would make him a "good hockey player" if he were simply allowed to play, let alone allowed to play with Datsyuk.
And Gator is any better?

Can't shoot
Hockey IQ of a baseball
doesn't wear down the opposition
He can barely win board battles.

The guy should be in the AHL.

I will take a player like Tootoo who atleast wears down the opposition even though he is just as worthless as Abelkader in every other category.

This is a dumb conversation since the fact that Datsyuk has to degrade himself by playing with such garbage, is a disgrace. Why is Tatar still in the AHL? Just have Cleary retire right now. Nobody would miss him.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 04-10-2013 at 06:53 PM.
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04-10-2013, 06:53 PM
  #57
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Jordin Tootoo had 30 points last year playing on a low scoring Nashville team. Abdelkader has never scored more than 22 points in a season. So I don't see how Tootoo would be any worse than Abby. If anything it would be an upgrade over Abby because Tootoo is gritty-er and would make some big hits and keep defenseman thinking about something other than Datsyuk.

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04-10-2013, 06:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MTU hockey View Post
Jordin Tootoo had 30 points last year playing on a low scoring Nashville team. Abdelkader has never scored more than 22 points in a season. So I don't see how Tootoo would be any worse than Abby. If anything it would be an upgrade over Abby because Tootoo is gritty-er and would make some big hits and keep defenseman thinking about something other than Datsyuk.
The guy scored two goals in the 09 Cup Finals and people still think he isn't total garbage.

His hat trick probably earned his sweater a spot in the rafters next to Lidstrom. (when it's up there)

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04-10-2013, 07:02 PM
  #59
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Hey, how about we put neither of them on the first line? Neither belong there, and the fact that we are even having this conversation shows how desperately terrible Abdelkader has been in a scoring role.

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04-10-2013, 07:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Hey, how about we put neither of them on the first line? Neither belong there, and the fact that we are even having this conversation shows how desperately terrible Abdelkader has been in a scoring role.
I like this man.

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04-10-2013, 07:28 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
And Gator is any better?

Can't shoot
Hockey IQ of a baseball
doesn't wear down the opposition
He can barely win board battles.

The guy should be in the AHL.

I will take a player like Tootoo who atleast wears down the opposition even though he is just as worthless as Abelkader in every other category.

This is a dumb conversation since the fact that Datsyuk has to degrade himself by playing with such garbage, is a disgrace. Why is Tatar still in the AHL? Just have Cleary retire right now. Nobody would miss him.
I completely agree with this and I lol'd hard at the baseball thing.

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04-10-2013, 07:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Like Abdelkader, Tootoo's game would not translate well to a scoring line with Pavel Datsyuk. Right now he has the ability to forecheck and run around, with Datsyuk, he can't do that.
This is somewhat false.

Tootoo has a season of 24 assists in 77 games. That's more points than Abdelkader has in a season.

I think he's got better hands and hockey sense than Gator(just about everyone in the league does) and has a season to prove it.

*I see my point has already been brought up!

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04-10-2013, 08:00 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
This is somewhat false.

Tootoo has a season of 24 assists in 77 games. That's more points than Abdelkader has in a season.

I think he's got better hands and hockey sense than Gator(just about everyone in the league does) and has a season to prove it.

*I see my point has already been brought up!
Has a season to prove what? We're debating the offensive abilities of Justin Abdelkader and Jordin Tootoo. This is Abdelkader's 3rd 'full' season, Tootoo has been in the league for 9 years. There's more reasons to believe that Abdelkader has a better shot at actually being offensively competent than a guy who has a career high of 24 assists (!!!!) in one year.

Regardless, it's a stupid debate and an even stupider premise to think that either guy is a good fit on his line or better fit than the other. Who cares if Tootoo is slightly better, we're still debating if Tootoo or Abdelkader is "better" on a line with Pavel freaking Datsyuk. What's next?

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04-10-2013, 08:09 PM
  #64
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I think Tootoo is a 3rd line plugger. He should be allowed to play quite a bit(at least 10 minutes) and agitate/enforce. His value is to be disturbing. If the other guys on his line are decent hockey players he will put up some points as a bonus. I see him like Avery, if you have him in the lineup you play him, otherwise he's better off in the pressbox. And it looks like that's how Trotz used him and got the best out of him.

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04-10-2013, 08:11 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Has a season to prove what? We're debating the offensive abilities of Justin Abdelkader and Jordin Tootoo. This is Abdelkader's 3rd 'full' season, Tootoo has been in the league for 9 years. There's more reasons to believe that Abdelkader has a better shot at actually being offensively competent than a guy who has a career high of 24 assists (!!!!) in one year.

Regardless, it's a stupid debate and an even stupider premise to think that either guy is a good fit on his line or better fit than the other. Who cares if Tootoo is slightly better, we're still debating if Tootoo or Abdelkader is "better" on a line with Pavel freaking Datsyuk. What's next?
I don't understand the cop out people are taking by exclaiming there is now point in debating who should be on Datsyuk's wing between the two. If Tootoo is better in a lot of areas, it makes sense that between him an Gator, he should be there.

I mean, considering the point of this player is to be a 'big body" and crash and bang, create space, it's actually a really simple answer when you take in the fact that Tootoo, like you pointed out, has more experience, has put up better numbers in a season than Gator, and actually hits hard, he should be there.

Heaven forbid we use statistics to help back up our point! My, oh my! I know this is the Wings board, full of empty rhetoric and hyperbole, so that might not fit.

If you don't like the debate...

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04-10-2013, 08:33 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
I don't understand the cop out people are taking by exclaiming there is now point in debating who should be on Datsyuk's wing between the two. If Tootoo is better in a lot of areas, it makes sense that between him an Gator, he should be there.

I mean, considering the point of this player is to be a 'big body" and crash and bang, create space, it's actually a really simple answer when you take in the fact that Tootoo, like you pointed out, has more experience, has put up better numbers in a season than Gator, and actually hits hard, he should be there.

Heaven forbid we use statistics to help back up our point! My, oh my! I know this is the Wings board, full of empty rhetoric and hyperbole, so that might not fit.

If you don't like the debate...
Fighting and charging hardly qualify as "lot of areas".

In Tootoo's legendary 30 point season on a 'low scoring Predator's team' as was pointed out above. Abby scored more goals the same season and had a whopping 8 fewer points getting less playing time lower in the lineup on a nearly equally low scoring Red Wing team (the Wings scored a massive 7 more goals over 82 games than the Preds last season).

Trying to cobble this all together as some sort of statistical argument in favor of Tootoo is insanity.

And to make it perfectly clear... I'm not arguing that I believe Abby should or qualifies to play on Pavel's wing. Not at all... but arguing in favor of Tootoo... just doesn't compute.

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04-10-2013, 09:03 PM
  #67
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If I understand things correctly they removed that rule with the new CBA.
The 4 recall rule is still in effect, although it might have changed slightly, I find the second part of the rule difficult to follow.

from the CBA Summary of terms on the NHLPA website.

Quote:
The existing “Four Recall Rule” will continue to be applicable, but only during the period between the
Trade Deadline and the end of the Regular Season. Following the conclusion of the NHL Regular
Season, a Club may exercise an unlimited number of additional Regular Recalls provided that it may
have no more than three (3) Players on its Active Roster who were recalled by way of Regular Recall
after the Trade Deadline, unless the fourth Player had been recalled during the Regular Season in
which case such Player may remain in the NHL.

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04-10-2013, 09:07 PM
  #68
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Beauty of a GDT, Jman. Particularly liked Benedict Stuart. Look to see Thornton getting 3rd line minutes with Torres and Wingels, if today's practice lines are anything to go by. If McLellan gets his way, watch for the Marleau-Couture duo to be matched with the Datsyuk line.

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04-10-2013, 09:27 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Regardless, it's a stupid debate and an even stupider premise to think that either guy is a good fit on his line or better fit than the other. Who cares if Tootoo is slightly better, we're still debating if Tootoo or Abdelkader is "better" on a line with Pavel freaking Datsyuk. What's next?
That's such garbage...

"Who cares if Tootoo is slightly better than Abdelkader."

"Who cares if Kindl is slightly better than Lashoff."

"Who cares if Tatar is slightly better than..."

"Who cares if Cleary isn't quite as good as..."

Who cares? We care. Why? Because each and every single one of these arguments that you or in other cases other posters have just brushed aside as having no impact all add up.

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04-10-2013, 09:48 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
That's such garbage...

"Who cares if Tootoo is slightly better than Abdelkader."

"Who cares if Kindl is slightly better than Lashoff."

"Who cares if Tatar is slightly better than..."

"Who cares if Cleary isn't quite as good as..."

Who cares? We care. Why? Because each and every single one of these arguments that you or in other cases other posters have just brushed aside as having no impact all add up.
He has a very good reason to brush it off, and you completely ignored it.

Neither player belongs on Datsyuk's line.

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04-10-2013, 09:57 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
He has a very good reason to brush it off, and you completely ignored it.

Neither player belongs on Datsyuk's line.
What he's doing is deflecting any criticism of Mike Babcock onto Ken Holland, which he always does since he's a Babcock slappy.

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04-10-2013, 10:07 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
What he's doing is deflecting any criticism of Mike Babcock onto Ken Holland, which he always does since he's a Babcock slappy.
How is he doing that?

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04-10-2013, 10:15 PM
  #73
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Abdelkader or Tootoo on the top line? Oh how I long for the pre-cap era..

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04-10-2013, 10:45 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
What he's doing is deflecting any criticism of Mike Babcock onto Ken Holland, which he always does since he's a Babcock slappy.
You don't have to be a "Babcock slappy", whatever that means, to see that the debate over Tootoo or Abby on Datsyuk's line is not only pointless, but ludicrous. I truly hope nobody can say that either of them belong in the top six with a straight face.

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04-10-2013, 11:23 PM
  #75
RedWingsNow*
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Nothing in Tootoo's history would suggest he'd be any more of a "good hockey player" than Abdelkader, given Abby's play and history.
30 points last year is pretty good.
Plus, he's a right hand shot.

Tootoo led his WHL team in points as an 18 year old
Led his team again as a 19 year old (35 goals, 74 points in 51 games)
Made the Canadian WJC team.
Was drafted in round 4 despite being 5'9
Played 70 games as 20-year-old in the NHL/.

In 05-06, spent half the year in the AHL and scored 13 goals and 27 points in 41 games, and then 9 goals in 15 playoff games as a 21-22 year old.

Tootoo, IMO, has been a solid producer from line 4 since 2007-08, wehn he scored 11 goals.

Since then he's produced at about a 24 to 30 point pace every year.

But because he hits like a truck and fights, he gets pigeonholed. And because he's 5'9, Babcock wants nothing to do with him.

Oh well, Kenny already paid the man.


Here;s something hilarious -- For years, we've been screaming that Datsyuk needs a right handed shot.

This year, we start the season with Mursak, Brunner, Eaves, Tootoo and Sammy.

And yet Datsyuk almost never plays with any of them at even strength.

It's almost impossible... yet Babcock finds a way to make sure it doesn't happen.

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