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Emergence of Ray Emery as the #1 goaltender

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04-10-2013, 10:35 AM
  #76
Sarava
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Yeah, we'll see how it plays out but if Emery starts for us in the playoffs, I want nothing to do with either of the two after this playoffs. Emery will be priced out of what he is worth by an amazing amount of money and Crawford will have lost trust and failed. You don't bring a guy like that back as your starter. We'll have to see how this plays out.
I think with Emery's injury history, and the perception that this team is carrying whatever goaltender happens to be in net...I'm not sure Emery will get that great of a contract.

A few people have said it before. Crawford's confidence scares me. He is very Huet-like in that when the chips start to stack against him, he seems to let the whole deck of cards collapse. We've seen it over and over with both Huet and Crawford.

Is Crawford the better goalie when he is confident? I would say absolutely yes...but you're always a goal or two away from that possibly imploding.

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04-10-2013, 10:39 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
I think with Emery's injury history, and the perception that this team is carrying whatever goaltender happens to be in net...I'm not sure Emery will get that great of a contract.

A few people have said it before. Crawford's confidence scares me. He is very Huet-like in that when the chips start to stack against him, he seems to let the whole deck of cards collapse. We've seen it over and over with both Huet and Crawford.

Is Crawford the better goalie when he is confident? I would say absolutely yes...but you're always a goal or two away from that possibly imploding.
A legit concern. However, the concern with Emery is the possibility of losing a game like Sunday night where we outshot and outplayed our opponent by miles. I mean, that is absolutely devastating too. We'll see. This is not playoff hockey though. Maybe I am not crediting the Hawks enough but there is no way we double teams up 40-20 in shots and double or triple them in scoring chances throughout the playoffs, especially on the road.

If the Hawks are able to do that though, I don't give a damn who is in net, whatever they choose will be good enough to win the Cup.

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04-10-2013, 10:43 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Corey Crawford has been up and down and inconsistent throughout most of his 8 years as a pro in the Blackhawks organization. You're trying to label those that disagree with you as something they are not.
Nope. One soft goal against and it's the end of the world because he had a bad playoff series last year.

Why bother taking into account his good playoff series or his two solid regular seasons when we can make judgments based on just one rough season (which was not this year)? That's the way to go. Logical.

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04-10-2013, 10:46 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
A legit concern. However, the concern with Emery is the possibility of losing a game like Sunday night where we outshot and outplayed our opponent by miles. I mean, that is absolutely devastating too. We'll see. This is not playoff hockey though. Maybe I am not crediting the Hawks enough but there is no way we double teams up 40-20 in shots and double or triple them in scoring chances throughout the playoffs, especially on the road.

If the Hawks are able to do that though, I don't give a damn who is in net, whatever they choose will be good enough to win the Cup.
It's been my biggest concern since last summer. While most of this forum wanted a #2 center at the deadline - I was adamant that I thought goaltender was the most likely position to cause this team to get bounced in the playoffs.

Let's put it this way. It's very hard to play 4 consecutive series and not run in to a red hot goalie at some point. You can outshoot the other team 2-1...if their goalie is standing on their head - the best defense to that is to have your own goalie standing on his head as well. I'm not sure we can get that from either of these guys. But it's hard to wina cup without getting that somewhere along the way.

In 2010 the Hawks got it from Niemi in the San Jose series. He was brilliant in those 4 games.

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04-10-2013, 10:49 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Nope. One soft goal against and it's the end of the world because he had a bad playoff series last year.

Why bother taking into account his good playoff series or his two solid regular seasons when we can make judgments based on just one rough season (which isn't this year)? That's the way to go.
If you're not going to reply to what I posted, then please don't bother. It's getting old you trying to put words in people's mouths. You're the only one harping on this one soft goal crap. None of the Emery defenders are.

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04-10-2013, 10:57 AM
  #81
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Well, this team did and still does need an improvement at 2C and G. Whether they can win in spite of it or not is to be determined.

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04-10-2013, 10:59 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
If you're not going to reply to what I posted, then please don't bother. It's getting old you trying to put words in people's mouths. You're the only one harping on this one soft goal crap. None of the Emery defenders are.
I did respond....
Crawford's play has been consistent. Then he has a rough few games and gives up one weak goal that everyone remembers (Legwand), and many begin calling for Emery to get a shot at #1.

You bring up Crawford's confidence. Do you think throwing another goalie into the #1 spot as soon as Crawford has a tough stretch is going to help that?

Plenty of Emery's fans prop him up by putting down Crawford. Seriously? It's not putting words in anyone's mouth. You see "I trust Emery more than Crawford, he's calmer in net, less prone to weak goals, etc..." every bit as much as you see "Emery's playing good hockey, he should get the #1 job."

So yes, I naturally return to the point that people often judge Crawford based on small samples of bad play rather than much larger samples of good play. A rather silly double standard, given Emery has his bad spells too. Every goalie does.

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04-10-2013, 11:02 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
I did respond....
Crawford's play has been consistent. Then he has a rough few games and gives up one weak goal that everyone remembers (Legwand), and many begin calling for Emery to get a shot at #1.

You bring up Crawford's confidence. Do you think throwing another goalie into the #1 spot as soon as Crawford has a tough stretch is going to help that?

Plenty of Emery's fans prop him up by putting down Crawford. Seriously? It's not putting words in anyone's mouth. You see "I trust Emery more than Crawford, he's calmer in net, less prone to weak goals, etc..." every bit as much as you see "Emery's playing good hockey, he should get the #1 job."

So yes, I naturally return to the point that people judge Crawford based on small samples of bad play rather than much larger samples of good play. A rather silly double standard, given Emery has his bad spells too. Every goalie does.
funny, it was a tough stretch with a .928 sv%.

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04-10-2013, 11:04 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by madgoat33 View Post
funny, it was a tough stretch with a .928 sv%.
Pretty much. I'm trying to be as charitable as possible here.

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04-10-2013, 11:11 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
I did respond....
Crawford's play has been consistent. Then he has a rough few games and gives up one weak goal that everyone remembers (Legwand), and many begin calling for Emery to get a shot at #1.

You bring up Crawford's confidence. Do you think throwing another goalie into the #1 spot as soon as Crawford has a tough stretch is going to help that?

Plenty of Emery's fans prop him up by putting down Crawford. Seriously? It's not putting words in anyone's mouth. You see "I trust Emery more than Crawford, he's calmer in net, less prone to weak goals, etc..." every bit as much as you see "Emery's playing good hockey, he should get the #1 job."

So yes, I naturally return to the point that people often judge Crawford based on small samples of bad play rather than much larger samples of good play. A rather silly double standard, given Emery has his bad spells too. Every goalie does.
Ive said that myself. But I'm not harping on one goal Crawford gave up - as you have implied over and over. As I said, I'm not a big Emery fan either - I just haven't seen him wet the bed with a lack of confidence as we've seen Corey do.

I'm more bothered by last year's Phoenix series than anything. I'm afraid it will happen again. When a guy has done the same up and down routine for 8 years in your organization - you have a pretty good idea of what you can expect. And I don't like what I can expect from him in the playoffs....because I see an otherwise Cup-ready team.

I think it's dangerous to say, oh well if they blow it this summer we can then replace Crawford and try again next year. There's no guarantee you're ever going to have as good of a chance at the cup as this season.

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04-10-2013, 11:16 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Ive said that myself. But I'm not harping on one goal Crawford gave up - as you have implied over and over. As I said, I'm not a big Emery fan either - I just haven't seen him wet the bed with a lack of confidence as we've seen Corey do.

I'm more bothered by last year's Phoenix series than anything. I'm afraid it will happen again. When a guy has done the same up and down routine for 8 years in your organization - you have a pretty good idea of what you can expect. And I don't like what I can expect from him in the playoffs....because I see an otherwise Cup-ready team.

I think it's dangerous to say, oh well if they blow it this summer we can then replace Crawford and try again next year. There's no guarantee you're ever going to have as good of a chance at the cup as this season.
My mistake for not saying so Sarava, but none of my posts were really directed at you. I usually speak at a general level.

Can definitely see why you'd be nervous about Crawford. However I think he's played too well and resembled his rookie form (a year in which he was damn good in the playoffs, but the Hawks were the inferior team plain and simple) enough so that I'm optimistic he'll be able to perform to a level the Hawks need come playoff time.
He had a bad series against Phoenix, there's no doubt. But I'm not sure it's fair to question his confidence variability because of that. In my eyes, I see a goalie who's had two good regular seasons, one good playoff series, and one bad playoff series. I think he has more natural skill and ability than Emery does (you seem to agree). I suppose the issue of his confidence is where we differ.

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04-10-2013, 11:24 AM
  #87
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I didn't take anything as personally at me - just at all us us Crawford naysayers in general. Glad we can disagree and keep it civil.

As I said before - I suspect the job will be his come playoff time. Whatever happens, I just want to win the damn cup. I'd like nothing more than to proclaim myself wrong as Crawford gets handed the Conn Smythe from Gary Bettman. That's all that matters here.

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04-10-2013, 11:35 AM
  #88
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And then we can all argue about who we think truly deserved the Conn Smythe.

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04-10-2013, 11:48 AM
  #89
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CC was sensational at times vs Canucks (especially game 7) and equally appalling at times vs Yotes. If we're after consistency (and mental toughness) the edge might go to Razor. Q could start out playing the tandem and then go with the hotter hand. He won't; but he could (used to be done quite often).

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04-10-2013, 01:17 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Nope. One soft goal against and it's the end of the world because he had a bad playoff series last year.

Why bother taking into account his good playoff series or his two solid regular seasons when we can make judgments based on just one rough season (which was not this year)? That's the way to go. Logical.
1 soft goal? with his history?

REALLY?

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04-10-2013, 01:24 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
1 soft goal? with his history?

REALLY?
That's sort of my point Bubba - his history is a good deal more positive than negative, but people fixate on the bad spots.

Yes, 1 soft goal. That's what has really lead to threads like this. Would you disagree that everyone started jumping on him pretty much following that Legwand goal?

Emery is going to let in weak goals too. It happens to every goalie, whether your name is Roy, Brodeur, Bryzgalov, or Toskala.
He's a solid goalie. I think people need to relax a little bit as far as this topic is concerned. You shouldn't be harping on and on about a guy (Emery) deserving to be the #1 because the other goalie had a tough playoff series last year (which is more or less what this amounts to).
Emery should earn it.
Is he on his way to doing that? Sure he is. But I want to see him continue to play well for a while longer first. And do it against quality opposition, which he hasn't had the chance to do yet.
If Emery truly earns the spot, then I will have no qualms with it even though I do think Crawford is the better goalie. But I don't think Emery has done that yet nor do I think the bashing of Crawford is particularly fair or reasonable at all.

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04-10-2013, 01:45 PM
  #92
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Crawford has won a whooping ZERO PO series. He lets in bad goals that are back breaking more than enough.

It isn't only 1 soft goal. It was too many in the past. It's not like Roy or Brodeur who won Cups and Vezinas that let in a softie every once in a while. It's an average at best goalie that has a reputation of letting in softies and he has shown it more than once

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04-10-2013, 01:52 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Crawford has won a whooping ZERO PO series. He lets in bad goals that are back breaking more than enough.

It isn't only 1 soft goal. It was too many in the past. It's not like Roy or Brodeur who won Cups and Vezinas that let in a softie every once in a while. It's an average at best goalie that has a reputation of letting in softies and he has shown it more than once
Reminds me of Niemi.

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04-10-2013, 01:58 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Reminds me of Niemi.
What I missing here? How does Crawford losing both of his playoff series remind you of Niemi?

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04-10-2013, 01:59 PM
  #95
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Every goalie lets in bad goals. People are ultra-sensitive on that topic with Crawford because they assume the playoff series last year is the norm.
That's really the main problem I have with this Emery/Crawford debate. Both goalies let in bad goals. Every goalie lets in bad goals. Crawford is no more prone to it than any other average or slightly above average NHL goalie is. People simply fixate on the memorable ones.

Leads to a double standard where people get on one goalie about something, but don't do the same thing for the other guy. Emery has let in his share of weak goals this year too. On the whole both goalies have performed at more or less the same level. Personally I want Crawford as the #1 because I think he's more talented and is quicker side-to-side. It's perfectly fine to prefer Emery but I feel like some fans are doing it for completely the wrong reasons.

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04-10-2013, 02:00 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
What I missing here? How does Crawford losing both of his playoff series remind you of Niemi?
Zero victories in playoff series (as Niemi had prior to the Cup run) and a tendency to let in weak goals. Niemi definitely does do that (the latter). Sharks fans like him on the whole but they bring that up pretty often.

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04-10-2013, 02:03 PM
  #97
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What I missing here? How does Crawford losing both of his playoff series remind you of Niemi?
The team sucked last year. Yes, Crawford sucked, but I was not impressed with any of it. It was a lost season as far as I am concerned. The 10-11 team was actually pretty good IMO and Crawford was their best player. I want to see Crawford play with an even better team in the playoffs. I thought he was under the microscope going into this season and proved everything he had to. I am content.

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04-10-2013, 02:04 PM
  #98
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Crawford just seems mentally weak to me at times. He'll be playing fine, making saves, but then he lets in a softie, and he beats himself up over it, causing his play to be sub-par for a small stretch. I firmly believe though that Crawford is the more talented goalie, and I never lost faith in him. I've always supported him. Emery has had some very lucky games in the sense that the Hawks just happen to utterly dominate the opposing team's offense.

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04-10-2013, 02:15 PM
  #99
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Hey Hawks fans, this is slightly off topic but some of you might find it interesting. I just did some number crunching and found that before the Hawks played Calgary, the odds of Emery posting 3 shutouts in his next 5 starts were 1 in 851. I don't know if that speaks more to how far over his head he's been playing lately or how well they're team defense has been but it's pretty amazing either way. Any way, good luck with the rest of the season. Barring a miracle, I'll be jumping on your bandwagon as soon as the playoffs start because my Devils have been ice cold since Brodeur's injury.

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04-10-2013, 09:59 PM
  #100
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We might consider the following. No rule exists saying one goaltender or the other must be anointed the starter for the playoffs. In years past, it worked out that Quenneville needed to designate a starter and lean on him throughout the playoffs (Huet was not an option come playoff time in 2010; Crawford was significantly better than Turco in 2011 and had an edge over Emery last year)...not the case this season. The reality is that the Blackhawks have the luxury of two very good goaltenders playing behind an outstanding defensive team with a rigorous and unfailing "defense-first" credo. Attuned to the minute and paid to be the very best judge of his personnel, trust Q to play the best keeper on any given day, which may well mean that Crow and Razer share the playoff load in favor of team success.


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