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Old
04-11-2013, 09:24 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Hall is a winger. Tavares is a center. Big difference in responsibility.

Hall is not a top-5 winger in the NHL YET. He may very well be in the future. But right now, if you ask who a coach would want on their team for this season and next, I am 100% certain most coaches would give more than 5 other winger who they like more than Hall.

That is not to say he s not a great player and someone I would love to have on the Rangers, because he is and I would.
I just don't get the lack of respect for Hall, when guys like Eberle, RNH, Tavares and Landeskog are considered top-tier players. He is the most underrated player in the league and the fact that he isn't even in consideration for a top 5 winger league wide speaks volumes of peoples' opinions of him.

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04-11-2013, 09:43 AM
  #152
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I suggested it earlier...

Trade Staal or Girardi for an Alex Semin or Evander Kane type player. We can sacrifice some D to get a little bit more O to put us over the top

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04-11-2013, 09:46 AM
  #153
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I've said it before and have made it very clear that I think Staal is very over rated. This is he second time he is out and NYR still seems to prosper with out him. It is very obvious. In a deep draft like this,you package him cause he will grab you a 1st rounder and then maybe make another move for a second.

McD,Girardi,DelZ,Moore,Stralman, top 5 is mint. With McIlrath possibly up and coming. Skjei a strong possibility in the next ,lets says 2-3 years. NYR is set and deep enough in D depth. I'd like to see NYR also acquire an Erskine type D man. Tough and nasty.

Sorry to say it but Staal is expendable. I think it's more a fact .

everyone seems to just love Staal for one,he's a Staal and 2 he was one of the first pieces mainly on the backend Rangers used when they started a rebuild,so people seem to have a soft spot for him. move him while you can. The guy is injured 2 straight years now
I agree with you. We could get some offensive firepower if we move Staal. I like Staal but I feel like he makes more mistakes than people think and a lot of our fans often give him a pass.

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04-11-2013, 10:07 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I just don't get the lack of respect for Hall, when guys like Eberle, RNH, Tavares and Landeskog are considered top-tier players. He is the most underrated player in the league and the fact that he isn't even in consideration for a top 5 winger league wide speaks volumes of peoples' opinions of him.
Tavares is a legitimate superstar. RNH, Eberle, Landeskog are not. Yet. Same with Hall.

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04-11-2013, 11:06 AM
  #155
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And how is it a bogus argument? He's played more than 80% of the season the past two years.

Yes, Taylor Hall is currently a rich man's Zach Parise. He's bigger, faster, stronger and more physical. They play an identical forecheck game and dominate on puck possession.
He's yet to play a full NHL season, let alone produce over the course of one. All it proves is that he's injury prone.

Parise is also a far better two-way player, has helped his team to a SCF and several playoff appearances, and has two PPG or better seasons under his belt.

Quote:
I mention Tavares because he gets treated like a god on here. On HFBoards that is. Some think he is actually on par with Stamkos and there was a recent thread asking if he was the 2nd best player in the world.

Taylor Hall on the other hand, does not get that same type of respect. This despite shattering Tavares' PPG in comparision with first 3 yrs in the league. This thread is a good example.
Tavares gets his reputation because he's carried a god-awful team on his back since he arrived. He's not on a squad littered with 1st overall picks either. He does more with less.

Still, regardless of all that, comparing Hall to Tavares has nothing to do with Hall being a top-5 winger in the NHL. Is he better than Ovie, Kovalchuk, Hossa, St Louis, Perry, Eriksson, Nash, Sedin, P. Kane, Neal, Vanek, Kessel, etc, etc, etc, etc...? The correct answer is no.

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lol
Oddly enough, that was my exact reaction to your post as well.

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04-11-2013, 11:10 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Tavares is a legitimate superstar. RNH, Eberle, Landeskog are not. Yet. Same with Hall.
Both Tavares and Hall are legitimate superstars. The others are a tier below.

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04-11-2013, 11:15 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
He's yet to play a full NHL season, let alone produce over the course of one. All it proves is that he's injury prone.

Parise is also a far better two-way player, has helped his team to a SCF and several playoff appearances, and has two PPG or better seasons under his belt.



Tavares gets his reputation because he's carried a god-awful team on his back since he arrived. He's not on a squad littered with 1st overall picks either. He does more with less.

Still, regardless of all that, comparing Hall to Tavares has nothing to do with Hall being a top-5 winger in the NHL. Is he better than Ovie, Kovalchuk, Hossa, St Louis, Perry, Eriksson, Nash, Sedin, P. Kane, Neal, Vanek, Kessel, etc, etc, etc, etc...? The correct answer is no.



Oddly enough, that was my exact reaction to your post as well.
Hall has one less point than Tavares this year in 3 less games. He has better RelCorsi numbers, provides more shots on net and has a very unlucky on ice sh% compared to Tavares, who is shooting at an unsustainable 18% rate. I don't see why Tavares is better than Hall. Hall is the most underrated player in the game.

He's played with a shoulder tear since his 2nd yr in Jr and finally got surgery for that.

He is a player with the eye test alone, a guy who will compete for the Hart Trophy year in, year out in his prime years.

As for Parise, he's had much better linemates and a better team around him. This reminds me of Kovalchuk getting lambasted for not carrying the Thrashers to playoffs every year. Now he is a god too.

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04-11-2013, 11:23 AM
  #158
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James Neal is now a better player than Taylor Hall?

lol.

Who has seen his numbers without Malkin.

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04-11-2013, 11:24 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by zuckera1 View Post
I suggested it earlier...

Trade Staal or Girardi for an Alex Semin or Evander Kane type player. We can sacrifice some D to get a little bit more O to put us over the top
I would love Evander Kane here. I would do this in a heartbeat.

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04-11-2013, 11:25 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Hall was on pace for 70+ pts last year too and pretty much demolished the opposition on the forecheck. He is a rich man's Zach Parise.

For reference, Taylor Hall has had a higher PPG than supposed top 5 player in John Tavares each year comparative (1st vs. 1st, 2nd vs. 2nd, etc). He did this while helping the team maintain puck possession at a higher rate.

He is in doubt, a top 5 winger in the league.
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Kovalchuk, Ovechkin and Kane are pretty much the only ones.
Kershaw, I must ask you about your obsession with Kovalchuk. You obviously value puck possession and ES play highly since you often bring it up in player comparisons, yet you make this bizarre exception for Kovalchuk. He's been a mediocre-to-poor puck possession player since 2007-2008, and since coming to the Devils his ES production has declined rapidly; from 2.00/60 in 10-11 to 1.55/60 in 11-12 to 1.12/ this season. That is comparable production to Pääjärvi, Stoll, Wolski, and Ponikarovsky. Actually, Kovalchuk has had better On-Ice Sh% than all of those players, so it is arguably even worse.

Even though he does have a significant impact beyond his numbers and his special teams play is still very good, his ES numbers have dropped to such a low level (both compared to players around the league, AND players on his own team) that I can no longer with a straight face call him a top-5 winger.

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04-11-2013, 11:34 AM
  #161
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Kershaw, I must ask you about your obsession with Kovalchuk. You obviously value puck possession and ES play highly since you often bring it up in player comparisons, yet you make this bizarre exception for Kovalchuk. He's been a mediocre-to-poor puck possession player since 2007-2008, and since coming to the Devils his ES production has declined rapidly; from 2.00/60 in 10-11 to 1.55/60 in 11-12 to 1.12/ this season. That is comparable production to Pääjärvi, Stoll, Wolski, and Ponikarovsky.

Even though he does have a significant impact beyond his numbers and his special teams play is still very good, his ES numbers have dropped to such a low level (both compared to players around the league, AND players on his own team) that I can no longer with a straight face call him a top-5 winger.
I'm very biased to Kovalchuk, I will admit. But I think the eye test has a lot to do with it. Of course, that is very flawed.

I think he is the best special teams player in the entire league. Maybe Shea Weber and PK Subban are better, but that's where the list ends.

He was floating with a + differential SH last season and early on this season. Last season Kovy had 4 PPGA and 5 SH points. That's insane.

The reason his possession numbers are down is probably based on the fact that he gets double and triple shifted often on all lines on the Devils team. He is a very versatile player and has the most workload by a forward in the league to produce. Of course he won't maintain possession everytime out there because he will have linemates that will drag him down.

The reason he doesn't get the top competition is because the Devils have the luxury of having Elias, who is a puck possession phenom. Or at least he was, last year. He is the perfect shudown player alongside Zubrus and Clarkson, one of the best 2-way lines in hockey last season.

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04-11-2013, 11:43 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Hall has one less point than Tavares this year in 3 less games. He has better RelCorsi numbers, provides more shots on net and has a very unlucky on ice sh% compared to Tavares, who is shooting at an unsustainable 18% rate. I don't see why Tavares is better than Hall. Hall is the most underrated player in the game.

He's played with a shoulder tear since his 2nd yr in Jr and finally got surgery for that.

He is a player with the eye test alone, a guy who will compete for the Hart Trophy year in, year out in his prime years.

As for Parise, he's had much better linemates and a better team around him. This reminds me of Kovalchuk getting lambasted for not carrying the Thrashers to playoffs every year. Now he is a god too.
Hall is the most underrated player in the game? I swear I've heard this tune before. Weren't you saying Elias was the most underrated? And you're insane if you'd take Hall over Eriksson, Hossa, Perry, Nash, etc. Only OV, Kovalchuk, and Kane are netter than Hall? Sometimes I think you only post to play devil's advocate.

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04-11-2013, 11:51 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I'm very biased to Kovalchuk, I will admit. But I think the eye test has a lot to do with it. Of course, that is very flawed.

I think he is the best special teams player in the entire league. Maybe Shea Weber and PK Subban are better, but that's where the list ends.

He was floating with a + differential SH last season and early on this season. Last season Kovy had 4 PPGA and 5 SH points. That's insane.

The reason his possession numbers are down is probably based on the fact that he gets double and triple shifted often on all lines on the Devils team. He is a very versatile player and has the most workload by a forward in the league to produce. Of course he won't maintain possession everytime out there because he will have linemates that will drag him down.

The reason he doesn't get the top competition is because the Devils have the luxury of having Elias, who is a puck possession phenom. Or at least he was, last year. He is the perfect shudown player alongside Zubrus and Clarkson, one of the best 2-way lines in hockey last season.
His ESTOI/G is barely higher than Nash's, but he plays more special teams so I guess you can argue that he has less energy for ES play. The linemates argument doesn't hold water to me since his Corsi Rel. (-8.3) is 3rd worst among Devils forwards, only Barch (-8.6) and Gionta (-14.7) have worse, and neither of those are among Kovalchuk's 10 most common linemates.

Look I'm really not out to defame you or anything, but I've just become frustrated with the amount of love Kovalchuk gets despite his play falling off. He has had a significantly worse impact at ES than Brad Richards to whom the entire HFNYR seem to be on the brink of sending death threats to.

Oh, and I agree 100% on Elias whom I consider the Devil's best player and one of (if not the) most underrated player in the league.

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04-11-2013, 11:53 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by BlessThisMess513 View Post
Hall is the most underrated player in the game? I swear I've heard this tune before. Weren't you saying Elias was the most underrated? And you're insane if you'd take Hall over Eriksson, Hossa, Perry, Nash, etc. Only OV, Kovalchuk, and Kane are netter than Hall? Sometimes I think you only post to play devil's advocate.
Elias is one of the most underrated too. He is always constantly ranked outside the top 10-15 forwards, despite being that good.

Hall is underrated too and I provided my opinions w/stats to support it.

Hall is better than Eriksson, Hossa, Perry and Nash imo for sure.

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04-11-2013, 11:54 AM
  #165
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Also, I'd rather not give Clowe 4-5m per. Would prefer to give that to Clarkson instead, who is a much better overall player at this point in his career. Probably not a popular opinion...

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04-11-2013, 11:59 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
His ESTOI/G is barely higher than Nash's, but he plays more special teams so I guess you can argue that he has less energy for ES play. The linemates argument doesn't hold water to me since his Corsi Rel. (-8.3) is 3rd worst among Devils forwards, only Barch (-8.6) and Gionta (-14.7) have worse, and neither of those are among Kovalchuk's 10 most common linemates.

Look I'm really not out to defame you or anything, but I've just become frustrated with the amount of love Kovalchuk gets despite his play falling off. He has had a significantly worse impact at ES than Brad Richards to whom the entire HFNYR seem to be on the brink of sending death threats to.

Oh, and I agree 100% on Elias whom I consider the Devil's best player and one of (if not the) most underrated player in the league.
The love for Kovalchuk is completely warranted. He was the best winger in the league last year in the regular season and the playoffs.

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04-11-2013, 12:01 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by BlessThisMess513 View Post
Hall is the most underrated player in the game? I swear I've heard this tune before. Weren't you saying Elias was the most underrated? And you're insane if you'd take Hall over Eriksson, Hossa, Perry, Nash, etc. Only OV, Kovalchuk, and Kane are netter than Hall? Sometimes I think you only post to play devil's advocate.
Hall really is, along WITH Elias one of the most underrated.

After thinking about it and doing some research; RIGHT NOW I'd only take Kane, Ovechkin, and Nash over him. And he's probably #1 if we take the future into account. Only Kunitz has better ES numbers than him this year and we all know that is due to Crosby.

His and Karlsson's contracts are the biggest steals in the league considering both cap hit and term.

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04-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #168
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Also, I'd rather not give Clowe 4-5m per. Would prefer to give that to Clarkson instead, who is a much better overall player at this point in his career. Probably not a popular opinion...
No ex-Devils on the roster please. It never works out. And not even Devil's fans like Clarkson anymore.

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04-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #169
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Also, I'd rather not give Clowe 4-5m per. Would prefer to give that to Clarkson instead, who is a much better overall player at this point in his career. Probably not a popular opinion...
I'd be wary of Clarkson. He's a terrible skater and I think Elias is carrying him.

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04-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #170
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I'd be wary of Clarkson. He's a terrible skater and I think Elias is carrying him.
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No ex-Devils on the roster please. It never works out. And not even Devil's fans like Clarkson anymore.
I'd rather have neither Clowe or Clarkson, but management wants the tough guy on the top 6 to replace Gaborik.

At this point, I'd rather have Clarkson than Clowe. And yeah, Elias is probably carrying him, but Clarkson is good at getting shots to the net 2x as more effectively than Clowe. He is 3rd in the league in shots on goal.

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04-11-2013, 12:07 PM
  #171
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Also, I'd rather not give Clowe 4-5m per. Would prefer to give that to Clarkson instead, who is a much better overall player at this point in his career. Probably not a popular opinion...
I wouldn't give Clarkson 4-5 million per season. That's insane.

Saying that, I would like to have him on the Rangers but he is a RW, no? At some point, the Rangers will have quite a few young players ready for the NHL. Hard to keep signing these guys to longer term deals while still trying to infuse youth and fresh legs.

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04-11-2013, 12:08 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Hall has one less point than Tavares this year in 3 less games. He has better RelCorsi numbers, provides more shots on net and has a very unlucky on ice sh% compared to Tavares, who is shooting at an unsustainable 18% rate. I don't see why Tavares is better than Hall. Hall is the most underrated player in the game.

He's played with a shoulder tear since his 2nd yr in Jr and finally got surgery for that.

He is a player with the eye test alone, a guy who will compete for the Hart Trophy year in, year out in his prime years.

As for Parise, he's had much better linemates and a better team around him. This reminds me of Kovalchuk getting lambasted for not carrying the Thrashers to playoffs every year. Now he is a god too.
..and again, none of this has anything to do with him being a top-5 winger in the league. "He's better than Tavares!" does nothing to prove he's top-5 at his position. Straw men and your own, biased predictions make for an extremely flimsy argument. Not even worth going any further with it.

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04-11-2013, 12:10 PM
  #173
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I wouldn't give Clarkson 4-5 million per season. That's insane.

Saying that, I would like to have him on the Rangers but he is a RW, no? At some point, the Rangers will have quite a few young players ready for the NHL. Hard to keep signing these guys to longer term deals while still trying to infuse youth and fresh legs.
Well I'm not gonna be happy w/it, but management will make a blunder in signing Clowe or Clarkson, which I am completely anticipating. I'd rather play the kids too and go with cheaper stopgaps.

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04-11-2013, 12:10 PM
  #174
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I'd rather have neither Clowe or Clarkson, but management wants the tough guy on the top 6 to replace Gaborik.

At this point, I'd rather have Clarkson than Clowe. And yeah, Elias is probably carrying him, but Clarkson is good at getting shots to the net 2x as more effectively than Clowe. He is 3rd in the league in shots on goal.
I wouldn't give Clarkson $2 million per, let alone $4 million per. This season is an outlier for him. Clowe is on the decline, that's for sure, but Clarkson is not that good. And name me one Devil that has come here and been successful. There isn't one. That trend will continue.

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04-11-2013, 12:12 PM
  #175
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..and again, none of this has anything to do with him being a top-5 winger in the league. "He's better than Tavares!" does nothing to prove he's top-5 at his position. Straw men and your own, biased predictions make for an extremely flimsy argument. Not even worth going any further with it.
I don't see how the other wingers are better.

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