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Old
04-11-2013, 06:01 AM
  #301
Saundies
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I'm one of the biggest Carey price fans around; he's young, he's big, good, and has a hell of a lot of swagger. Is he immune to bad goals? No, but no goalie in the league is at all. That's why it bugs the crap out of me when I'm watching the game and, for example, Sidney Crosby beats Price with a laser shot that only the best player in the world can do. Then I go on twitter, and it's all "come on Price, you have to have that" or even worse, the arm-chair goalie coaches: "that was a bad goal, Price needs to cover his angles better." Can it be possible that sometimes the shooter makes a good shot? Is it possible that the rest of the team isn't immune to criticism and actually has a defensive breakdown?

Any person that blames Price for every single goal has never played hockey in their life, or has hit was the worst teammate in the entire world. If the other team gets a chance to score, chances are the team missed a defensive assignment somewhere.

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04-11-2013, 07:02 AM
  #302
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My own tiny little opinion is this; there are two Carey Prices, one an out of this world insanely talented goalie who is unbeatable... the other Carey Price is just average. Usually CP1 shows up, but sometimes CP2 shows up and 6 goals go in.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, consistency is not always present...

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04-11-2013, 07:37 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Rickkins View Post
My own tiny little opinion is this; there are two Carey Prices, one an out of this world insanely talented goalie who is unbeatable... the other Carey Price is just average. Usually CP1 shows up, but sometimes CP2 shows up and 6 goals go in.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, consistency is not always present...
What I see is CP1 90% of the time. The other 10% it's the forwards and Carey Price as the defense is no where to be found.

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04-11-2013, 08:23 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
This is not entirely true. Goaltending is largely mental, the difference between a good .910 performance and an amazing .935 performance is being in the zone and seeing plays. Unless you've played goal, it's tough to explain.

You can't just choose to be in the zone.

It's easy for a good goalie to lose concentration after a goal is scored on you if something affected you in that goal, aka someone bumped you illegally or your teammate made a bad play. These things can throw you off and you can still not make a mistake on the next play but not being in the zone can stop you from not making an amazing unexpected save.

That's why they say goalies are the most superstitious person on a team, a good goalie will create for himself, a million habits so he can find a way to continually put himself back in concentration mode.
This rings true for me, as I've always felt that concentration is the key for Price and that the playoffs will make or break him. With the stakes so high, a lot will depend on what happens in the first series. The motivation will be there to raise his concentration level higher, but he needs to have a good start for his confidence to keep it that way.

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04-11-2013, 09:05 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Well said. My dad is a big Price fan and I'm pretty hard on him but I could tell he thought the Crosby shot was maybe weak, he asked me what I thought about it and I told him the same thing you said. "It happens"

But that doesn't mean that you can't call the Ovechkin goal weak without getting a hard time does it? We should be able to say things about our players? "I like Subban, but I don't like when he dives". Don't see why you should be trashed for any kind of criticism.
No, the Ovechkin goal was weak. I'm not saying that every single goal that goes in on him isn't his fault, but sometimes good shots that go in are attributed to being his fault when they shouldn't be.

Bottom line is every goalie that has ever played the game has let in a bad goal or two (or three, or a hundred). Even Cam "Proven-in-the-playoffs-cup-winner" Ward let in that brutal goal against Patches this year. Obviously as fans we expect consistency, but if a goalie lets in a bad goal with a period and a half left to play, the team should step up and bail him out.

IMO a goalie doesn't cost a team a game unless he lets in a bad goal with barely any time left to try and equalize... and this has happened to me before playing in a provincial final game. It sucked.

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04-11-2013, 09:47 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
No goalie is worth 6,5M$ LOL .

Goalie are overated and this is coming from one of te best GM in the league ( Ken Holland)

Thing is the difference between lets say 4th best goalie and the 17th best goalie is minimal
And your boy Kenny Holland is about to dish out a long term contract worth 5.3M$ per to Jimmy Howard...

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04-11-2013, 09:53 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
With all this blaming of Carey Price for losing or more specifically, not winning us games, I'm curious to know who you'd rather have in net?

It's one thing to bash a guy but another entirely to say who'd prefer to man the nets for the Canadiens for the next 5-10 years.

Maybe we can have a poll once/if we settle in on a few names over Price just to see.

For my money, there's no other goalie I'd rather have in the NHL than Price right now.

Price - 1

Other - 0
Price is not really our problem..... except when he stinks.


Last edited by TennisMenace: 04-11-2013 at 12:24 PM. Reason: grammar
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04-11-2013, 09:54 AM
  #308
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And your boy Kenny Holland is about to dish out a long term contract worth 5.3M$ per to Jimmy Howard...
Haaaah, this must hurt

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04-11-2013, 09:56 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
I'm one of the biggest Carey price fans around; he's young, he's big, good, and has a hell of a lot of swagger. Is he immune to bad goals? No, but no goalie in the league is at all. That's why it bugs the crap out of me when I'm watching the game and, for example, Sidney Crosby beats Price with a laser shot that only the best player in the world can do. Then I go on twitter, and it's all "come on Price, you have to have that" or even worse, the arm-chair goalie coaches: "that was a bad goal, Price needs to cover his angles better." Can it be possible that sometimes the shooter makes a good shot? Is it possible that the rest of the team isn't immune to criticism and actually has a defensive breakdown?

Any person that blames Price for every single goal has never played hockey in their life, or has hit was the worst teammate in the entire world. If the other team gets a chance to score, chances are the team missed a defensive assignment somewhere.
Actually, lasers were already done by Dave Dziurzynski and some random from Carolina before Mr. Greatest Player in the World sniped his one home.

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04-11-2013, 10:05 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
We managed to chase Roy out of Montréal. No goalie will ever be good enough for Habs fans. That's why Price gets (unfair) criticism, in my opinion.
Unless you are Mario Tremblay you can't use "we".

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04-11-2013, 10:08 AM
  #311
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There can only be 3 responsibles for losses.

1. The refs
2. The coach
3. The goalie

It cannot be anyone else. Last week at the bar, after Boston's lone goal, my buddies who were discussing the physical attributes of a member of the opposite sex both exclaimed ''********* Carey!''. Then they watched the replay. They changed their minds, but the initial reaction to ANY goal is ''********** Carey''.

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04-11-2013, 10:08 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
I'm one of the biggest Carey price fans around; he's young, he's big, good, and has a hell of a lot of swagger. Is he immune to bad goals? No, but no goalie in the league is at all. That's why it bugs the crap out of me when I'm watching the game and, for example, Sidney Crosby beats Price with a laser shot that only the best player in the world can do. Then I go on twitter, and it's all "come on Price, you have to have that" or even worse, the arm-chair goalie coaches: "that was a bad goal, Price needs to cover his angles better." Can it be possible that sometimes the shooter makes a good shot? Is it possible that the rest of the team isn't immune to criticism and actually has a defensive breakdown?

Any person that blames Price for every single goal has never played hockey in their life, or has hit was the worst teammate in the entire world. If the other team gets a chance to score, chances are the team missed a defensive assignment somewhere.
The Crosby one was not a bad goal, that one was a "snipe". The Ovechkin one last game was a weak one, I know floaters can be hard for goalies but if you are an 6.5 mil NHL goalie you gotta stop those.

I think there are a few irrationals on both sides...soime just want to bash CP for every goal, others want to defend him and always blame somebody else even when it's his fault, common sense is somewhere in the middle.

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04-11-2013, 10:59 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
Price is not really are problem except when he stinks.
That tends to be the problem with ALL players.

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04-11-2013, 11:01 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Unless you are Mario Tremblay you can't use "we".
18,000 fans jeering and mocking him that game against Detroit had nothing to do with it, right?

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04-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #315
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With the exception of 2008-09 (when he was 21 years old), Price has out performed the league average save percentage every season, and was significantly above it in 2010-11, still managing to be above league average even with our hilariously bad season last year. In addition, among active goalies he currently holds the 10th best save percentage among active NHL goalies (13th best all time).

As was mentioned, it's a bit hard to get a grasp on because every year there's a bunch of average goalies or guys who were formerly nobodies who come out of nowhere to have better seasons than all the top goalies in the league, but guys like Price don't really come around very often. There are very few goalies that will outperform the league average save percentage AND (this is very important) play the vast majority of their team's games. There's value in that, exactly how much is up for debate but what we do know is that as long as Carey Price is under contract with the Canadiens, we'll likely have above average goaltending (how much above average isn't as predictable), and that's worth locking a guy up long term for.

With Price, we know we're getting above league average goaltending for 60+ games year in year out. I'm a believer that in most cases it's not a good idea to shell out big money for a goalie, but I believe Price is one of those special cases where it's worth it to pay the money. Is he worth 6.5M? Perhaps not quite, but that's the cost of signing a guy of his calibre, if we didn't sign him in the off season somebody would force our hand with an offer sheet. The other aspect is how young he still is to be in this discussion at all. The dude is 25 years old. Pekka Rinne wasn't even an NHL starter until he was 26. Carey Price is already a veteran at an age where most goalies aren't even starters yet.

It's easy to say "just sign a Mike Smith/Brian Eliott in free agency", but did anyone actually believe either of those guys would have those kinds of seasons last year? Did anyone actually believe Craig Anderson would be leading the league in save percentage this year? The problem with those kinds of signings is that you have no idea what you're really getting. Brian Eliott's at an .884 save percentage this year, and Mike Smith has a .908. With Price, we know our goalie isn't going to be putting up those kinds of numbers over the course of a season, and that's the value in a guy like him, and it's actually shockingly rare to find guys capable of consistently staying above league average.

All that being said, I don't think it's a shock to anyone that I say he hasn't lived up to his contract this year. I'm not a Price hater by any means and I facepalm as hard as anyone when people give him crap over goals like the one Boston scored the other night, but the fact is we're paying him the third highest salary of any goalie in the league and he hasn't been 6.5M good. As I said earlier he's still been above league average this year, but not enough that we should be paying him the 6.5M salary he's getting. However, I'm not ready to declare it an albatross and I have little doubt that he'll keep putting up above average numbers for the length of his deal.
Good post.

Its in no way shape or form an albatross. Almost any team in the league would love to have Price at the contract we've got him at. Philly would KILL to get him. He's worth the contract. We've got a guy who we know will start 80% of our games and is solid. Tough to find those kinds of workhorses in the NHL.
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
We managed to chase Roy out of Montréal. No goalie will ever be good enough for Habs fans. That's why Price gets (unfair) criticism, in my opinion.
Yup. Still remember the night Roy was chased out of Montreal...
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The Crosby one was not a bad goal, that one was a "snipe". The Ovechkin one last game was a weak one, I know floaters can be hard for goalies but if you are an 6.5 mil NHL goalie you gotta stop those.
I wouldn't call it weak (it was a knuckler) but it's definitely a stoppable puck.

What bothers me though is that this is what folks focus on. They don't focus on the 1st period where we left him to the wolves to face 10 shots in the first five minutes and he bailed our sorry ass out of it. Yeah, he got beat by OV on a shot that maybe he should've had but it's freaking Ovechkin and that puck wasn't the easiest to stop either. Listening to folks talk like he cost us the game though is downright dumb.

And I don't care how much you make those goals are going to go in sometimes. 6.5 million doesn't buy you perfection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think there are a few irrationals on both sides...soime just want to bash CP for every goal, others want to defend him and always blame somebody else even when it's his fault, common sense is somewhere in the middle.
The guy isn't Roy and we shouldn't expect him to be. He's as solid a workhorse as you'll find in the league. Rinne and Lundqvist are the only ones who could be said to be better. There's a peace of mind that comes with having a solid goalie who you know is going to keep you in the game. Price rarely loses the game for us and the same can't be said for the netminders of most teams. You can ask Flyers fans about that one.

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04-11-2013, 12:18 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
No, the Ovechkin goal was weak. I'm not saying that every single goal that goes in on him isn't his fault, but sometimes good shots that go in are attributed to being his fault when they shouldn't be.

Bottom line is every goalie that has ever played the game has let in a bad goal or two (or three, or a hundred). Even Cam "Proven-in-the-playoffs-cup-winner" Ward let in that brutal goal against Patches this year. Obviously as fans we expect consistency, but if a goalie lets in a bad goal with a period and a half left to play, the team should step up and bail him out.

IMO a goalie doesn't cost a team a game unless he lets in a bad goal with barely any time left to try and equalize... and this has happened to me before playing in a provincial final game. It sucked.
The Ovechkin goal wasn't weak. Price will tell you he wants it back. It's not a great goal, it's not a bad goal. Ovechkin shouldn't have been allowed to take the shot and Price maybe shouldn't have taken for granted the flight pattern of the puck, but the way it knuckled where it knuckled, it's hard to fault him completely for it.

I agree with the rest of your analysis. Too often the loss is placed on the goalie and there is this stigma around here that the goalie has to steal every game we lose. There's more players on the ice than the goalie, bad goals happen, quick goals happen, defensive break-downs happen. We weren't able to give Price 3 goals to get at least 1 point and we lost. 3 goals against should get you a point, anything lower than that should be a win. That's the way I look at it.

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04-11-2013, 12:24 PM
  #317
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That tends to be the problem with ALL players.
Yeah, that is my point.

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04-11-2013, 12:44 PM
  #318
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Seriously?

Jimmy Howard is terrible. Makes Price's contract look so much better.

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04-11-2013, 01:16 PM
  #319
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I agree with the idea that goaltenders should be rated on a different scale than skaters because there's more fluctuation from year to year in league performers. What you're paying for is the certainty of having a good or very good performer every year and not someone that's going to be amazing one year and bomb the next. In that regard, Price has been very good and steady. He hasn't been the best goalie on any given year, but that's not a reasonable expectation given the fluctuation. Guys like Lundqvist are examples of steady performers as well. So in the end the statement "he's not worth his 6.5 millions this year" is really a nonsense statement. That is the wrong metric to measure goaltender value. The horizon is longer.

The other thing that grows annoying is pointing out "bad goals". Bad goals are baked into the cake and again should be viewed from a broader statistical perspective. There's nothing wrong with pointing out bad goals, what is annoying is the suggestion that the bad goal means something more than what it does for that game or over a period of time in the absence of looking at the bigger picture. What is lacking is an understanding of causation with respect to goal scoring and recognizing the net advantage of having one goaltender in place above another. I don't know how you can enjoy a hockey game, or a series of hockey games, obsessively looking for instances of bad goals, which are natural occurrences in the game on both sides of the rink. I guess the same applies to looking for bad passes, or bad plays, and focusing on these, without looking at the flow of the game. These are normal occurrences, the question is whether the net amount has an impact on the result, or whether it surpasses beneficial occurrences.

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04-11-2013, 01:18 PM
  #320
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Yeah, that is my point.
Sorry, I forgot the

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04-11-2013, 02:11 PM
  #321
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I just don't get why everyone gets so defensive over the guy. In all honesty this year he was the best goalie on the ice probably about 50% of the time. ie) half the time the other guy was better.
I'd like to know how you came up with this 50% number.
If that were true, his stats would be a lot worse.

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04-11-2013, 02:31 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
No goalie is worth 6,5M$ LOL .

Goalie are overated and this is coming from one of te best GM in the league ( Ken Holland)

Thing is the difference between lets say 4th best goalie and the 17th best goalie is minimal
Ask Philly if goalies are overated.

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04-11-2013, 02:31 PM
  #323
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I wouldn't call it weak (it was a knuckler) but it's definitely a stoppable puck.

What bothers me though is that this is what folks focus on. They don't focus on the 1st period where we left him to the wolves to face 10 shots in the first five minutes and he bailed our sorry ass out of it. Yeah, he got beat by OV on a shot that maybe he should've had but it's freaking Ovechkin and that puck wasn't the easiest to stop either. Listening to folks talk like he cost us the game though is downright dumb.

And I don't care how much you make those goals are going to go in sometimes. 6.5 million doesn't buy you perfection.
The bolded part needs repeating.

Being highly paid means you should have a minimal number of mistakes not that they will never happen. I'm willing to bet that if someone compiled a list of all the bad goals scored on goalies, Price would have one of the fewest bad goals per game ratios.

My personal take on why Carey gets so much unwarranted criticism is that most of the time he makes it look easy. He makes hard stops look easy so doesn't get the credit he deserves, which in turns makes his mistakes stand out even more. So people see a goalie who had a relatively easy night but flubbed that one goal, but replace Price with Tim Thomas and people would see 1 flubbed goal and 10 brilliant saves given the same shots/chances.

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04-11-2013, 02:34 PM
  #324
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Ask Philly if goalies are overated.
Yeah ask them about 2010

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04-11-2013, 02:45 PM
  #325
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Yeah ask them about 2010
They'd probably say if only they had a good goalie they would've won the cup.

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