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04-11-2013, 12:26 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Fact is, there are more than a few underachievers on this Rangers team this year. This was a team that was supposed to challenge for tops in the east, fighting for a playoff spot.

Brian Boyle IS one of those players. Not because his stat line doesn't appropriately display what kind of player he is (because it does), but because of the ROLE Torts has him playing. He's not living up to that ROLE.
I think that's a creative definition of underachieving, but anyways, I disagree that Boyle's stat line this season reflects what he is.

Boyle's ESP/60 the past three seasons:
2012-13: 0.56
2011-12: 1.43
2010-11: 1.47

I know there are many who will have us believe that those 164 games were an anomaly and these 36 games reflects a return to his natural state, but I don't think that's true.

Of course that's only even strength that he's struggling, you've already demonstrated that he's been a beast on the PP .

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04-11-2013, 12:27 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
You asked someone to address the PP looking better since Boyle was added, he did, and back it up with statistical information. Your response is he doesn't like Boyle?
The thing is that his statistical backup supported the point he was fighting, though.

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04-11-2013, 12:30 PM
  #103
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The thing is that his statistical backup supported the point he was fighting, though.
I disagree with this though. The problem with statistical evidence is that it can always be swayed in the favor of whoever is presenting it (as I continue to do myself here ).

Boyle has seen PP time in 21 NYR games this season. He was on the ice for a goal in just one of those games.

That game is the anomaly. Brian Boyle is not, and should not be, a regular PP player. And he has been this month, and I think that's wrong.

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04-11-2013, 12:37 PM
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I disagree with this though. The problem with statistical evidence is that it can always be swayed in the favor of whoever is presenting it (as I continue to do myself here ).
I don't see how the information can be viewed as reflecting negatively on Boyle.

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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Boyle has seen PP time in 21 NYR games this season. He was on the ice for a goal in just one of those games.

That game is the anomaly.
So in those other 20 games, the 16 minutes he was on the ice they didn't score is damning evidence? Considering the Rangers score a goal for every ~13 minutes of 5 on 4 time, I can't see how it is.

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04-11-2013, 12:53 PM
  #105
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I'm one of the Boyle naysayers. Even More so since he's been on the line with Brass. I don't care about his stats that's not why I hate on him. Every time he has the puck he either flubs it, falls or gets knocked off. I just want him to be used in situations where he uses his size (screen the goalie), we all know he lacks a lot of skill aside from the faceoffs and well his physical strength is poor too. I just wish he was smarter and not some player whom I clench my body every time he touches the puck in fear he's about to blow a gasket or whatever.

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04-11-2013, 01:02 PM
  #106
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My favorite part was when he somehow ****ed up negating that icing last night. He can't be THAT slow

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04-11-2013, 01:02 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I don't see how the information can be viewed as reflecting negatively on Boyle.


So in those other 20 games, the 16 minutes he was on the ice they didn't score is damning evidence? Considering the Rangers score a goal for every ~13 minutes of 5 on 4 time, I can't see how it is.
Perhaps when we look at the numbers we see different things. I cannot sway you, and I will not argue with you. I see using Boyle on the power play as inefficient, your views differ, but I understand them. And that's okay. Different strokes for different folks.

Brian Boyle has five points this season while averaging 14:28/game minutes a game. Five. That is undesriable as a third liner. Again, this is on Torts and not Boyle.

Among FORWARDS who average 14-15 minutes of ice/game, Brian Boyle ranks 26th in points out of 32. The players who have not recorded 5 points in that grouping? Alex Chiasson (Dallas, 4 games played, 4 points), Eric Belanger (Edmonton, 23 games played, 3 points), Jimmy Hayes (Chicago, 9 games played, 3 points), Radek Dvorak (Anaheim, 5 games played, 3 points), Roma Horak (Calgary, 11 games played, 4 points), Johan Larsson (Minnesota, 1 game played, 0 points).

Brian Boyle has played in 36 games this season. In terms of points per game, Brian Boyle is the worst NHL forward in the grouping of players who play an average of 14-15 minutes a night.

Brian Boyle has been a disappointment as a third liner simply because he is not a third liner. He is a fourth liner. He should be used as such. I wish the Rangers had the personnel to make this dream a reality, and if I could heal Dorsett magically, I would do it.

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04-11-2013, 01:12 PM
  #108
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I agree that's Boyle's play over this season has been unacceptable. In fact I don't see anyone arguing against that point.

You think he doesn't have any more to give, I disagree there.

But I cannot see how the powerplay stats you have given could possibly reflect poorly on Boyle.

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04-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
I don't like Brian Boyle - third liner, and every situation man. I do like Brian Boyle - fourth liner and PK specialist. It's not Boyle's fault that Torts overuses him, I also dislike Torts.
Can you please name me 9 forwards on the current roster that are better options than Brian Boyle.

Seems to me your real issue is with Glen Sather.

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04-11-2013, 01:30 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Bob Richards View Post
If anyone likes to make fun of Boyle, its me. It's both hilarious and easy. That said, he....still....takes....WAY....too....much....heat around here. This teams entire offense is just putrid and if your name isn't Derek or Rick, you probably aren't scoring. Verbally slaughtering the 4th line center who is clearly being overused by the coach seems extremely unfair to me.

Boyle is awful offensively. Boyle is prone to stupid penalties. Boyle also works his ****ing ass off and shows more effort night in and out than half this ******* team. He's also the only guy that can win a FO which makes him a lot more valuable than he is given credit for.

Some poster in a previous Boyle thread used an excellent analogy. If the Rangers are a metaphorical car, Brian Boyle is a bad paint job and its stupid to get so worked up over that when the car has no ******* engine.
Bravo! Great post...one correction, he does take the occasional stupid penalty but if you look at his totals for the season he doesn't have a lot of penalties.

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04-11-2013, 01:32 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I agree that's Boyle's play over this season has been unacceptable. In fact I don't see anyone arguing against that point.

You think he doesn't have any more to give, I disagree there.

But I cannot see how the powerplay stats you have given could possibly reflect poorly on Boyle.
It's tough to see where the "pro-Boyle" users are coming from as some believe he has been serviceable as a third liner. I could not disagree more with that statement.

As for the PP, I see it as a complete failure for most of the season. It has looked good recently, as I've said, but I'd argue that has more to do with Zucc's, Brassard, and Clowe than it does Boyle. And I think the stats prove that.

As stated, Brian Boyle has seen power play time in 21 Rangers games this season. Brian Boyle has 1 power play point this season, an assist. Brian Boyle has been on the ice for two New York Rangers power play goals this season. Of those 21 games and near 18 minutes, Brian Boyle has been on the ice in just one game where the Rangers have converted a power play opportunity that he was a part of.

That's a vomit inducing stat in my head. I see the stats that way, you see the stats as pointing to Boyle being on the ice for a power play goal every 8 minutes and 50 seconds, or ~4.5 power play opportunities.

Let's compare Boyle's PP numbers to Brassard's since joining the Rangers. They have both been predominantly third line players.

Brassard has seen 870 seconds (or by my gorilla math, I guess 14:30 total time) of power play time since joining the Rangers. He has been on the ice for 4 New York Rangers power play goals. So that's an average of one goal every 217.5 seconds, or roughly 3 and a half minutes, which is the way you would view these statistics.

So playing by your views, I'd suspect the rejuvenated power play has more to do with new additions than Brian Boyle.


Last edited by silverfish: 04-11-2013 at 01:37 PM.
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04-11-2013, 01:35 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Can you please name me 9 forwards on the current roster that are better options than Brian Boyle.

Seems to me your real issue is with Glen Sather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Brian Boyle has been a disappointment as a third liner simply because he is not a third liner. He is a fourth liner. He should be used as such. I wish the Rangers had the personnel to make this dream a reality, and if I could heal Dorsett magically, I would do it.
I don't disagree. I've said many times in this thread I wish the correct personnel was in place. As I said before this season, I believed going into the year with Brian Boyle as a third liner was a mistake, and I still think that, and I think the statistics prove me right.

If it were up to me, Kreider would be on the third line on this team. I understand why he isn't, but that's what I would do. Until then, I'm just hoping that when Dorsett is healthy he steps right into the Rangers top-9, Pyatt goes out, and Boyle drops down to line 4.

As such:

Nash - Stepan - Zuccarello
Clowe - Richards - Callahan
Hagelin - Brassard - Dorsett
Asham - Boyle - Powe

Would be my top 12 when the current NYR roster is completely healthy.

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04-11-2013, 01:36 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Bravo! Great post...one correction, he does take the occasional stupid penalty but if you look at his totals for the season he doesn't have a lot of penalties.
Seems like it should be higher because every time he takes a penalty there is 2 pages in the GDT thread dedicated to "discussing" it.

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04-11-2013, 01:38 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post

As such, I'd suspect the rejuvenated power play has more to do with new additions than Brian Boyle.
The point I was also making.

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04-11-2013, 01:43 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Seems like it should be higher because every time he takes a penalty there is 2 pages in the GDT thread dedicated to "discussing" it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Bravo! Great post...one correction, he does take the occasional stupid penalty but if you look at his totals for the season he doesn't have a lot of penalties.
I think it would take 5 Nash penalties to equal one Boyle penalty.

You'd swear he committed a human rights abuse.

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04-11-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
It's tough to see where the "pro-Boyle" users are coming from as some believe he has been serviceable as a third liner.
This season, as a whole?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
So playing by your views, I'd suspect the rejuvenated power play has more to do with new additions than Brian Boyle.
You've made this point a couple times, but I haven't seen anyone arguing the other side of it.

By the way Boyle was on the ice for 3 PP goals: See here

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04-11-2013, 01:45 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
People do realize there are roles on a professional hockey team right?
Nope...fantasy leagues deserve the blame for that

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04-11-2013, 01:46 PM
  #118
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I don't disagree. I've said many times in this thread I wish the correct personnel was in place. As I said before this season, I believed going into the year with Brian Boyle as a third liner was a mistake, and I still think that, and I think the statistics prove me right.

If it were up to me, Kreider would be on the third line on this team. I understand why he isn't, but that's what I would do. Until then, I'm just hoping that when Dorsett is healthy he steps right into the Rangers top-9, Pyatt goes out, and Boyle drops down to line 4.

As such:

Nash - Stepan - Zuccarello
Clowe - Richards - Callahan
Hagelin - Brassard - Dorsett
Asham - Boyle - Powe

Would be my top 12 when the current NYR roster is completely healthy.
What makes you think Derek Dorsett is a 3rd liner if you think Boyle isnt?

The fact he is, indeed, NOT Brian Boyle doesnt count.

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04-11-2013, 01:48 PM
  #119
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Not going to look through this thread anymore than I have the past few days (I haven't today, at work), but I heard Sam or Joe talking about that Brian hasn't slept much in the past few weeks and is going through something. Is that from his concussion last year in the playoffs or bc of his play and possibly being on the block?

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04-11-2013, 01:49 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
This season, as a whole?


You've made this point a couple times, but I haven't seen anyone arguing the other side of it.

By the way Boyle was on the ice for 3 PP goals: See here
Touche. Missed that one. Definitely didn't miss any others though. It's three, solid.

Nice find, and thank you.

As for that point, I thought you, yourself, were attributing much of the Rangers recent PP successes due to Brian Boyle's appearance on the PP. I must have read your posts wrong, and for that I apologize. It was just in the sense that I was trying to prove the numbers on Boyle were heavily favored in other players benefit.

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04-11-2013, 01:54 PM
  #121
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What makes you think Derek Dorsett is a 3rd liner if you think Boyle isnt?

The fact he is, indeed, NOT Brian Boyle doesnt count.
As I've said, my ideal third liner for THIS team would be Kreider. As I've also said, I understand why Kreider isn't here at this time. I highlight "this team" because I am on record stating before the deadline that Kreider should be getting top - 6 minutes on NYR or he should be in CT. I am changing my tune to allowing Kreider to be a third liner player as the depth on this team now is more suitable to Kreider's playstyle than it was before the deadline. Boy that was a mouthful.

I like Dorsett's speed and toughness more than I like Boyle's. I feel he has more offensive upside as an NHLer than Brian Boyle does. Dorsett does have more points than Boyle this year, but his -11 is a it unnerving. Though I even said when highlighting Boyle's -13, that not too much stock should be put into that number.

He's not ideal. I wish Pyatt wasn't so useless these days, but he is. So, I'd give Dorsett a shot over Boyle for sure, especially since it would push Boyle back to the fourth line where I truly believe he belongs.

(I'm spending way more time in this thread than I ever wanted to I'm going to play video games )

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04-11-2013, 01:59 PM
  #122
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As I've said, my ideal third liner for THIS team would be Kreider. As I've also said, I understand why Kreider isn't here at this time. I highlight "this team" because I am on record stating before the deadline that Kreider should be getting top - 6 minutes on NYR or he should be in CT. I am changing my tune to allowing Kreider to be a third liner player as the depth on this team now is more suitable to Kreider's playstyle than it was before the deadline. Boy that was a mouthful.

I like Dorsett's speed and toughness more than I like Boyle's. I feel he has more offensive upside as an NHLer than Brian Boyle does. Dorsett does have more points than Boyle this year, but his -11 is a it unnerving. Though I even said when highlighting Boyle's -13, that not too much stock should be put into that number.

He's not ideal. I wish Pyatt wasn't so useless these days, but he is. So, I'd give Dorsett a shot over Boyle for sure, especially since it would push Boyle back to the fourth line where I truly believe he belongs.

(I'm spending way more time in this thread than I ever wanted to I'm going to play video games )
Yea, unfortunately the romanticized version of Chris Kreider cant play hockey and we're stuck with the real one that needs time on CT.

The reason I asked about Dorsett is because hes actually historically worse than Boyle and a bunch of people on this board are specifically complaining about Boyle's offense.

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04-11-2013, 02:00 PM
  #123
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As I've said, my ideal third liner for THIS team would be Kreider. As I've also said, I understand why Kreider isn't here at this time. I highlight "this team" because I am on record stating before the deadline that Kreider should be getting top - 6 minutes on NYR or he should be in CT. I am changing my tune to allowing Kreider to be a third liner player as the depth on this team now is more suitable to Kreider's playstyle than it was before the deadline. Boy that was a mouthful.

I like Dorsett's speed and toughness more than I like Boyle's. I feel he has more offensive upside as an NHLer than Brian Boyle does. Dorsett does have more points than Boyle this year, but his -11 is a it unnerving. Though I even said when highlighting Boyle's -13, that not too much stock should be put into that number.

He's not ideal. I wish Pyatt wasn't so useless these days, but he is. So, I'd give Dorsett a shot over Boyle for sure, especially since it would push Boyle back to the fourth line where I truly believe he belongs.

(I'm spending way more time in this thread than I ever wanted to I'm going to play video games )
Kreider is an ideal player for any of our lines, but the coach doesn't have much faith in him. I'm just waiting for him to pan out. If he could become more of a playmaker/gamebreaker, it would be great and he might be able to be on a line with a Boyle, but I'd rather Kreider play with someone talented.

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04-11-2013, 02:06 PM
  #124
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I am not proud to admit what I just did, but I did it. The perks of being unemployed, I suppose.

Brian Boyle has seen a total of 17 minutes and 40 seconds of power play time this season. This is, admittedly, much less than I have thought Boyle has been on the ice for the power play this season. (11 of those minutes have come in the month of April, already).

In those near 18 minutes of TOTAL power play time, Brian Boyle has been on the ice for 2, count them, 2 New York Rangers power play goals this season. They both came in the game against Pittsburgh the day of the deadline. So that's 1 RANGERS goal, not just goals Boyle had a point on, I'm talking about NEW YORK RANGERS goals, per 530 seconds of power play time for Brian Boyle.

I conclude the resurgent look of the Rangers power play has more to do with the additions at the deadline rather than Boyle's time on ice during the power play.
Or you could say he's been on the ice for 9.5% of the Rangers 21 PP goals this season.

Way too small of a sample size to say Boyle has had any effect on the powerplay.

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04-11-2013, 02:09 PM
  #125
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question on Brian Boyle... explain how does a guy that is 6'7 over 230 pounds get outmuscled by players that are much smaller than him?? not talking about speed here.... Brian Boyle must be the weakest player for his size....

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