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04-11-2013, 02:46 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
They'd probably say if only they had a good goalie they would've won the cup.
yep, thats what they thought they did in brysgalov and look at them now

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04-11-2013, 02:48 PM
  #327
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yep, thats what they thought they did in brysgalov and look at them now
Bryzgalov isn't a very good goalie though. If people think Price has focus issues...

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04-11-2013, 02:49 PM
  #328
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yep, thats what they thought they did in brysgalov and look at them now
As if Carey Price and Bryzgalov are even the slightest bit comparable. Come on.

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04-11-2013, 02:51 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
yep, thats what they thought they did in brysgalov and look at them now
So the lesson should be make sure you actually get a good goalie when spending that money instead of just hoping that you're getting one.

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04-11-2013, 02:53 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
Bryzgalov isn't a very good goalie though. If people think Price has focus issues...
look at their frame size and stats....almost identical

before these 2 years in philly he was dominant with phoenix.. just saying

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04-11-2013, 02:55 PM
  #331
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unless of course phoenix had a good team and he had absolutely no part in their small success when he was there...

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04-11-2013, 02:55 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
Yeah ask them about 2010
Philly didn't win the cup. Instead they had a bunch of retreads in net. If they had the right guy they could've won the cup. Goalies are not overated they will make or break your team. HooA.

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04-11-2013, 02:58 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
look at their frame size and stats....almost identical

before these 2 years in philly he was dominant with phoenix.. just saying
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
unless of course phoenix had a good team and he had absolutely no part in their small success when he was there...
Yeah, its not like Bryzgalov was a part of the best system in hockey And now Mike Smith looks like a perrenial Vezina winner, coincidenceIthinknot.GIF

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04-11-2013, 03:00 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
look at their frame size and stats....almost identical

before these 2 years in philly he was dominant with phoenix.. just saying
Dominant? A .917 SV% is dominant now? Or a 2.54 GAA? Or the sub .900 SV% in the playoffs and never making it out of the first round while being dominant in Phoenix?

Most people know that the Phoenix system was responsible for the uptick in his stats. No surprise he has never had a SV% higher than .910 before or after his dominant years in Phoenix.

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04-11-2013, 03:02 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
look at their frame size and stats....almost identical

before these 2 years in philly he was dominant with phoenix.. just saying
Price 25 yrs old, 303 games played, 143 wins, 19 SO's .916 sv%, 2.53 GAA

Bryzgalov 32 yrs old, 421 games played, 147 wins, 30 SO's, .913 sv%, 2.55 GAA

In what universe do these stats look the same? Bryz has played almost 120 more games and has 4 more wins. Go away troll.


Last edited by Drive425: 04-11-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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04-11-2013, 03:05 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Yeah, its not like Bryzgalov was a part of the best system in hockey And now Mike Smith looks like a perrenial Vezina winner, coincidenceIthinknot.GIF
So in order to win a stanley cup a GOOD goalie like Carey Price needs:

The Best System
The Best Defense
The Best Team
The Best Coach
...

what else? i'm I missing something?

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04-11-2013, 03:08 PM
  #337
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Dominant? A .917 SV% is dominant now? Or a 2.54 GAA? Or the sub .900 SV% in the playoffs and never making it out of the first round while being dominant in Phoenix?

Most people know that the Phoenix system was responsible for the uptick in his stats. No surprise he has never had a SV% higher than .910 before or after his dominant years in Phoenix.
i was talking about the first 2 seasons when they made the playoffs for the first time in their history? Those 2 years that made him a very wanted free agent?

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04-11-2013, 03:09 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
i was talking about the first 2 seasons when they made the playoffs for the first time in their history? Those 2 years that made him a very wanted free agent?
The same guy that was so valuable he was allowed to walk for nothing from Anaheim?

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04-11-2013, 03:10 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Drive425 View Post
Price 25 yrs old, 303 games played, 143 wins, 19 SO's .916 sv%, 2.53 GAA

Bryzgalov 32 yrs old, 421 games played, 147 wins, 30 SO's, .913 sv%, 2.55 GAA

In what universe do these stats look the same? Bryz has played almost 120 more games and has 4 more wins. Go away troll.
its more like 63 more wins...fyi

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04-11-2013, 03:17 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
i was talking about the first 2 seasons when they made the playoffs for the first time in their history? Those 2 years that made him a very wanted free agent?
They didn't make the playoffs in either of his first 2 seasons in Phoenix. Coincidentally, Dave Tippet is hired on as head coach the following offseason, wins the Jack Adams, and lo-and-behold, we have career highs for Bryz across the board.

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The same guy that was so valuable he was allowed to walk for nothing from Anaheim?
On waivers nonetheless.

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04-11-2013, 03:17 PM
  #341
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hey i'm not arguing that bryzgalov is a good goalie... all i'm saying is that philly thought they were getting a good goalie in Bryzgalov at the time.

Since then they have done nothing.

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04-11-2013, 03:18 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
its more like 63 more wins...fyi
you are correct he has 147 loses.

That said, you are still dead wrong. Price is 10x the goalie Bryz will ever be.

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04-11-2013, 03:31 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
hey i'm not arguing that bryzgalov is a good goalie... all i'm saying is that philly thought they were getting a good goalie in Bryzgalov at the time.

Since then they have done nothing.
That's great. Now where's the part where it's relevant to Price?

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04-11-2013, 03:45 PM
  #344
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No goaltender in the league would significantly make the team better. Sure there are some games where Carey dropped the ball and some other goalie would've gave the team the W, but then again, there are countless games this season and seasons past where the habs shouldn't have been anywhere close to winning a game, yet Carey pulled off a spectacular 45 save masterpiece to squeeze out the win. Do people really think having Lundqvist or Rinne or Schneider or etc. would make us a far better team?
No?

Okay.

It's hard to quantify just how good Price is because for goalies, to be great, you have to be as unnoticeable as possible. When people start mentioning a goalie's name, it's because he's playing bad. People only realize how effective a goalie is after the fact.

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04-11-2013, 03:49 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
hey i'm not arguing that bryzgalov is a good goalie... all i'm saying is that philly thought they were getting a good goalie in Bryzgalov at the time.

Since then they have done nothing.
The key word is thought.

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04-11-2013, 03:55 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
That's great. Now where's the part where it's relevant to Price?
Wait for it, here it comes...

(philly) Philly with a "bunch of retreads" managed and reached the Finals

(habs) Us with some random guy that was drafted 250+ went to the ECF

(philly) Now philly got what they thought was at the time a Good Goalie and won 1 round so far.

(habs) And us we drafted a "Good" goalie and we won 1 round so far as well and that was 5 years ago in his rookie season...

Whats relevant to Price is that both teams thought they were getting a good goalie...

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04-11-2013, 04:36 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
Wait for it, here it comes...

(philly) Philly with a "bunch of retreads" managed and reached the Finals

(habs) Us with some random guy that was drafted 250+ went to the ECF

(philly) Now philly got what they thought was at the time a Good Goalie and won 1 round so far.

(habs) And us we drafted a "Good" goalie and we won 1 round so far as well and that was 5 years ago in his rookie season...

Whats relevant to Price is that both teams thought they were getting a good goalie...
I don't really think Philly was a "bunch of retreads". Pronger, Briere, Giroux, Carter, Richards, Timonen, Giroux, Gagne, Hartnell, they were a very good team. I agree that you don't need a star goalie to get to the finals, and the 2010 playoffs were the case in point. Both the Flyers and Blackhawks in that playoff had fantastic teams (especially the Blackhawks), that made up for their average to mediocre goaltending. Halak despite his draft position is a good goalie but had an insane playoff hot streak not indicative of his real talent. Don't try to use an absurd hot streak as justification for trading Price. Not to mention the fact that Cammalleri and Gionta, as well as Gill and Gorges played like monsters in that post season, and in the 2nd round Plekanec and our defensemen basically nullified the two best players in the game (Crosby and Malkin were held to 5 and 3 points respectively). That playoff was as much about Cammalleri and Gionta playing at unbelievable levels as it was about Halak doing the same.

Saying "we've only won 1 playoff series with Price" is ignoring the context of the series Price has been the starter in. We won a series in Price's rookie season, and then we had an absolutely hilarious joke of a series in 2008-09. If you're going to pin our 4 game sweep in 2008-09 loss on Price and say that we would have advanced if only we had Halak then I don't even know what to say. The last playoff series for Price was a 7 game hard fought series against the eventual Stanley Cup champions, against a historic performance at the other end of the ice from Thomas. We lost 3 OT games in that series, we get one OT goal in that series we're talking about how good Price was in that series. Again, I have to reiterate that the year the Bruins won the cup Thomas was on a level that was absolutely historic, that was a generational season+playoff from him that simply can not be expected to happen outside of once in a generation.

When we lost our two playoff series with Price in net we had a really really bad team in 2008-09, and we were one OT goal away from winning in 2011 against the eventual cup winners with a generational performance in net. I don't really get how you can reasonably attribute either of these losses to goaltending or call Price a waste because of them. It just isn't realistic and ignores the team situation surrounding Price. I can understand if you're arguing that we would be better off finding an average goalie and investing the difference in salary into another top 4 defenseman or top 6 forward, that is up for debate and it's a debate worth having, but to draw comparisons between Bryzgalov and Price on the grounds of "they though they had a good goalie but have only won one playoff series" is ridiculous.

Yes, both Philly and Montreal thought they had a good goalie. The difference is Philadelphia thought wrong, Bryzgalov has been remarkably below average since going to Philadelphia (.909 and .896 save percentages, far far below league average), whereas Price has been above average every season of his career save for his second career season when he was twenty one years of age, was very far above league average on a 2010-11 team and followed it up with a great playoff performance (despite the fact that *gasp* we lost to the eventual cup champions), and even managed to stay above league average during the gong show that was last season. Where's Carey this year? That's right, above league average. Is he 6.5M worth of above league average this year? Of course not, but to suggest that Price's contract is going to be Bryzgalov esque is a big stretch at best and completely asinine at worst. Just because Philly thought Bryzgalov was Price doesn't mean Price is Bryzgalov.

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04-11-2013, 04:48 PM
  #348
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I don't really think Philly was a "bunch of retreads". Pronger, Briere, Giroux, Carter, Richards, Timonen, Giroux, Gagne, Hartnell, they were a very good team. I agree that you don't need a star goalie to get to the finals, and the 2010 playoffs were the case in point. Both the Flyers and Blackhawks in that playoff had fantastic teams (especially the Blackhawks), that made up for their average to mediocre goaltending. Halak despite his draft position is a good goalie but had an insane playoff hot streak not indicative of his real talent. Don't try to use an absurd hot streak as justification for trading Price. Not to mention the fact that Cammalleri and Gionta, as well as Gill and Gorges played like monsters in that post season, and in the 2nd round Plekanec and our defensemen basically nullified the two best players in the game (Crosby and Malkin were held to 5 and 3 points respectively). That playoff was as much about Cammalleri and Gionta playing at unbelievable levels as it was about Halak doing the same.

Saying "we've only won 1 playoff series with Price" is ignoring the context of the series Price has been the starter in. We won a series in Price's rookie season, and then we had an absolutely hilarious joke of a series in 2008-09. If you're going to pin our 4 game sweep in 2008-09 loss on Price and say that we would have advanced if only we had Halak then I don't even know what to say. The last playoff series for Price was a 7 game hard fought series against the eventual Stanley Cup champions, against a historic performance at the other end of the ice from Thomas. We lost 3 OT games in that series, we get one OT goal in that series we're talking about how good Price was in that series. Again, I have to reiterate that the year the Bruins won the cup Thomas was on a level that was absolutely historic, that was a generational season+playoff from him that simply can not be expected to happen outside of once in a generation.

When we lost our two playoff series with Price in net we had a really really bad team in 2008-09, and we were one OT goal away from winning in 2011 against the eventual cup winners with a generational performance in net. I don't really get how you can reasonably attribute either of these losses to goaltending or call Price a waste because of them. It just isn't realistic and ignores the team situation surrounding Price. I can understand if you're arguing that we would be better off finding an average goalie and investing the difference in salary into another top 4 defenseman or top 6 forward, that is up for debate and it's a debate worth having, but to draw comparisons between Bryzgalov and Price on the grounds of "they though they had a good goalie but have only won one playoff series" is ridiculous.

Yes, both Philly and Montreal thought they had a good goalie. The difference is Philadelphia thought wrong, Bryzgalov has been remarkably below average since going to Philadelphia (.909 and .896 save percentages, far far below league average), whereas Price has been above average every season of his career save for his second career season when he was twenty one years of age, was very far above league average on a 2010-11 team and followed it up with a great playoff performance (despite the fact that *gasp* we lost to the eventual cup champions), and even managed to stay above league average during the gong show that was last season. Where's Carey this year? That's right, above league average. Is he 6.5M worth of above league average this year? Of course not, but to suggest that Price's contract is going to be Bryzgalov esque is a big stretch at best and completely asinine at worst. Just because Philly thought Bryzgalov was Price doesn't mean Price is Bryzgalov.
An NHL goalie costs on average 2.5M according to Capgeek. So Carey is 4M above the average goalie. Since half of those are backups Price is probably only 1-2M above the average starting goaltender. And I'd gladly spend the 1-2M extra for Price instead of an average NHL starting goaltender.

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04-11-2013, 04:59 PM
  #349
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Since we're talking goalie...

I dont wanna sound like a jerk or anything but am I the only one that always hear stuff like: They always add shots when playing Boston. Shots are always high in Boston... like they count more of them or anything... I heard a lot of commentators saying this.

So if you take the great D Boston had over the years + the fact that the people who counts shots tend to count some shots even if they hit the outside of the net. That could explain a little bit why Boston goalie's... whoever you put there always have a huge save percentage %...

I dont write this to start any crap but I think over the years... a player like Thomas or Rask... as good as they are... might had their save percentage push a little high because of this.

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04-11-2013, 05:06 PM
  #350
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With the exception of 2008-09 (when he was 21 years old), Price has out performed the league average save percentage every season, and was significantly above it in 2010-11, still managing to be above league average even with our hilariously bad season last year. In addition, among active goalies he currently holds the 10th best save percentage among active NHL goalies (13th best all time).

As was mentioned, it's a bit hard to get a grasp on because every year there's a bunch of average goalies or guys who were formerly nobodies who come out of nowhere to have better seasons than all the top goalies in the league, but guys like Price don't really come around very often. There are very few goalies that will outperform the league average save percentage AND (this is very important) play the vast majority of their team's games. There's value in that, exactly how much is up for debate but what we do know is that as long as Carey Price is under contract with the Canadiens, we'll likely have above average goaltending (how much above average isn't as predictable), and that's worth locking a guy up long term for.

With Price, we know we're getting above league average goaltending for 60+ games year in year out. I'm a believer that in most cases it's not a good idea to shell out big money for a goalie, but I believe Price is one of those special cases where it's worth it to pay the money. Is he worth 6.5M? Perhaps not quite, but that's the cost of signing a guy of his calibre, if we didn't sign him in the off season somebody would force our hand with an offer sheet. The other aspect is how young he still is to be in this discussion at all. The dude is 25 years old. Pekka Rinne wasn't even an NHL starter until he was 26. Carey Price is already a veteran at an age where most goalies aren't even starters yet.

It's easy to say "just sign a Mike Smith/Brian Eliott in free agency", but did anyone actually believe either of those guys would have those kinds of seasons last year? Did anyone actually believe Craig Anderson would be leading the league in save percentage this year? The problem with those kinds of signings is that you have no idea what you're really getting. Brian Eliott's at an .884 save percentage this year, and Mike Smith has a .908. With Price, we know our goalie isn't going to be putting up those kinds of numbers over the course of a season, and that's the value in a guy like him, and it's actually shockingly rare to find guys capable of consistently staying above league average.

All that being said, I don't think it's a shock to anyone that I say he hasn't lived up to his contract this year. I'm not a Price hater by any means and I facepalm as hard as anyone when people give him crap over goals like the one Boston scored the other night, but the fact is we're paying him the third highest salary of any goalie in the league and he hasn't been 6.5M good. As I said earlier he's still been above league average this year, but not enough that we should be paying him the 6.5M salary he's getting. However, I'm not ready to declare it an albatross and I have little doubt that he'll keep putting up above average numbers for the length of his deal.
Only sensible post in this entire thread and its gone largely unnoticed. Good post.

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