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MTL-TOR 1st Round matchup

View Poll Results: Who would win between habs and leafs ?
Habs in 4 19 4.36%
Habs in 5 54 12.39%
Habs in 6 115 26.38%
Habs in 7 39 8.94%
Leafs in 4 16 3.67%
Leafs in 5 18 4.13%
Leafs in 6 108 24.77%
Leafs in 7 67 15.37%
Voters: 436. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-11-2013, 09:10 PM
  #201
Atomos2
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Can we all just agree that it would be a great series? lol
Didn't say it wouldn't be. I'd love for it to happen. Just a little bummed out by all the aggressive posters.

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04-11-2013, 09:11 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
I think you mis-interpeted me all wrong.

I never said Kadri would dry up and I full stated Kessel is a threat, aswell as Kadri is a threat. Like I said multiple times, the Leafs have better top offensive weapons. I'm not arguing against that.

Also I never said Gallagher is at JVR's level, I said statistically his PPG ratio is quite near JVRs. I still think Gallagher isn't quite as good, I'm just using that as an example to show MTL's offensive depth.
Ok, sorry bout that

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04-11-2013, 09:12 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
I would say 60 points is where I draw the line between 1st and 2nd line production.

And I don't see the 9 that could contribute that, atleast at a somewhat consistent rate, not just one and done breakout season. Kessel, Lupul, Kadri, and JVR I could see, then maybe Grabovski. Right now I don't see it coming from any of the others like Bozak or MacArthur or Komarov or whoever.

And thinking just due is a bit optimistic. Sometimes players struggle and there are reasons that contribute to it that are out of there control. But either way thinking they are going to breakout and overcome that is a bit optimistic, especially under a coach like Randy Carlyle who will go along with what has worked.

As for MTL, we talk about guys capable of 60 points, I would say Plekanec, Pacioretty, Desharnais, Ryder and Bourque are capable of it. As capable as any leaf. Thats 5. Then Brendan Gallagher has nearly the same PPG ratio as JVR and overall same as Galchenyuk and Kulemin. Really if anything its MTL's offensive depth that has been better this year, the Leafs have relied on there big guns all year, MTL has gotten scoring throughout there lineup. Heck Micheal Ryder is having a better season than JVR. Then you consider a guy like Eller who has been playing great in a defensive role.

If you think the TML have 9 guys who can put up 1st line production, I would like to hear you run through how many guys MTL has who you think are capable of it.
Take a look around the league as to where first lines generally produce. I'm not saying the Leafs have 9 guys that you'd want on your top line. I'm saying that they could assemble 3 lines which are capable of scoring 60 or more goals over a full season, which is generally what a team gets out of a first line. MacArthur-Grabo-Kulemin have done it. JvR-Bozak-Kessel have 41 already this year, and Lupul-Kadri-Frattin have 32 between them this year, despite the fact that Frattin's played 1/2 of the Leafs games and Lupul 1/4.

We're not talking about consistency, we're talking about capability, which is what matters for depth players. Montreal plays a shutdown game throughout the lineup, so there's good reason to believe that Toronto's checking line should produce substantially more than they have on average.

As I posted before... just look at the numbers top-down this year.

Kessel (40 pts, 40 gms) - Pacioretty (30 pts, 35 gms)
Kadri (40 pts, 40 gms) - Plekanec (28 pts, 38 gms)
Van Riemsdyk (28 pts, 40 gms) - Gionta (24 pts, 39 gms)
Bozak (25 pts, 40 gms) - Desharnais (22 pts, 39 gms)
Kulemin (21 pts, 40 gms) - Gallagher - (21 pts, 35 gms)
MacArthur (18 pts, 33 gms) - Eller (21 pts, 37 gms)
Grabovski (15 pts, 40 gms) - Galchenyuk (20 pts, 39 gms)
Lupul (14 pts, 10 gms) - Ryder (18pts, 19 gms)
McClement (13 pts, 40 gms) - Prust (12 pts, 31 gms)

Who on the Habs can you make the case is better than their production indicates?

BTW, Gallager's PPG level is closer to Kulemin's than it is JvR's. I also find it curious that you put Desharnais in a different category than Bozak.


Last edited by seanlinden: 04-11-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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Old
04-11-2013, 09:14 PM
  #204
Sergei Shirokov
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Ok, sorry bout that
Ya its fine, just a discussion. No worries. lol

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04-11-2013, 09:15 PM
  #205
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For the record: I think Prust will be a beast in the playoffs, and he might make a lot of Leaf fans angry, if the Habs end up facing the Leafs

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04-11-2013, 09:19 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Take a look around the league as to where first lines generally produce. I'm not saying the Leafs have 9 guys that you'd want on your top line. I'm saying that they could assemble 3 lines which are capable of scoring 60 or more goals over a full season, which is generally what a team gets out of a first line. MacArthur-Grabo-Kulemin have done it. JvR-Bozak-Kessel have 41 already this year, and Lupul-Kadri-Frattin have 32 between them this year, despite the fact that Frattin's played 1/2 of the Leafs games and Lupul 1/4.

We're not talking about consistency, we're talking about capability, which is what matters for depth players.

As I posted before... just look at the numbers top-down this year.

Kessel (40 pts, 40 gms) - Pacioretty (30 pts, 35 gms)
Kadri (40 pts, 40 gms) - Plekanec (28 pts, 38 gms)
Van Riemsdyk (28 pts, 40 gms) - Gionta (24 pts, 39 gms)
Bozak (25 pts, 40 gms) - Desharnais (22 pts, 39 gms)
Kulemin (21 pts, 40 gms) - Gallagher - (21 pts, 35 gms)
MacArthur (18 pts, 33 gms) - Eller (21 pts, 37 gms)
Grabovski (15 pts, 40 gms) - Galchenyuk (20 pts, 39 gms)
Lupul (14 pts, 10 gms) - Ryder (18pts, 19 gms)
McClement (13 pts, 40 gms) - Prust (12 pts, 31 gms)

Who on the Habs can you make the case is better than their production indicates?
Montreal is best in the league in terms of scoring from the back end. When you take away scoring from defensemen obviously our totals will look lower. It doesn't make any sense to not include scoring from defensemen as they too get to play in the playoffs but if that's what it takes to prove your point then go ahead and do it. This is the happiest Leaf fans have been in April for a decade.

Oh, and to the guy who keeps repeating how the Habs get exposed when they play other fast teams like Buffalo or Toronto maybe you should check out how Montreal just dominated Buffalo tonight. I'm not saying one game means anything, (especially against a non playoff team) but give it a rest with that ridiculous theory.

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04-11-2013, 09:24 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Take a look around the league as to where first lines generally produce. I'm not saying the Leafs have 9 guys that you'd want on your top line. I'm saying that they could assemble 3 lines which are capable of scoring 60 or more goals over a full season, which is generally what a team gets out of a first line. MacArthur-Grabo-Kulemin have done it. JvR-Bozak-Kessel have 41 already this year, and Lupul-Kadri-Frattin have 32 between them this year, despite the fact that Frattin's played 1/2 of the Leafs games and Lupul 1/4.

We're not talking about consistency, we're talking about capability, which is what matters for depth players. Montreal plays a shutdown game throughout the lineup, so there's good reason to believe that Toronto's checking line should produce substantially more than they have on average.

As I posted before... just look at the numbers top-down this year.

Kessel (40 pts, 40 gms) - Pacioretty (30 pts, 35 gms)
Kadri (40 pts, 40 gms) - Plekanec (28 pts, 38 gms)
Van Riemsdyk (28 pts, 40 gms) - Gionta (24 pts, 39 gms)
Bozak (25 pts, 40 gms) - Desharnais (22 pts, 39 gms)
Kulemin (21 pts, 40 gms) - Gallagher - (21 pts, 35 gms)
MacArthur (18 pts, 33 gms) - Eller (21 pts, 37 gms)
Grabovski (15 pts, 40 gms) - Galchenyuk (20 pts, 39 gms)
Lupul (14 pts, 10 gms) - Ryder (18pts, 19 gms)
McClement (13 pts, 40 gms) - Prust (12 pts, 31 gms)

Who on the Habs can you make the case is better than their production indicates?

BTW, Gallager's PPG level is closer to Kulemin's than it is JvR's.
Nice Spin on Ryder I guess the 14 points he scored in dallas don't count 34 pts is the right answer

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04-11-2013, 09:24 PM
  #208
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Who does Phaneuf pass the Cup to first? Only real question left imo.

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04-11-2013, 09:24 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
Montreal is best in the league in terms of scoring from the back end. When you take away scoring from defensemen obviously our totals will look lower. It doesn't make any sense to not include scoring from defensemen as they too get to play in the playoffs but if that's what it takes to prove your point then go ahead and do it. This is the happiest Leaf fans have been in April for a decade.

Oh, and to the guy who keeps repeating how the Habs get exposed when they play other fast teams like Buffalo or Toronto maybe you should check out how Montreal just dominated Buffalo tonight. I'm not saying one game means anything, (especially against a non playoff team) but give it a rest with that ridiculous theory.
As I mentioned, we're talking depth up front.

The Habs use their speed to play a much better integrated team game and involve their defence, but that's something which generally can't be expected to be effective against Toronto.

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04-11-2013, 09:24 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
Montreal is best in the league in terms of scoring from the back end. When you take away scoring from defensemen obviously our totals will look lower. It doesn't make any sense to not include scoring from defensemen as they too get to play in the playoffs but if that's what it takes to prove your point then go ahead and do it. This is the happiest Leaf fans have been in April for a decade.

Oh, and to the guy who keeps repeating how the Habs get exposed when they play other fast teams like Buffalo or Toronto maybe you should check out how Montreal just dominated Buffalo tonight. I'm not saying one game means anything, (especially against a non playoff team) but give it a rest with that ridiculous theory.
That is fine for montreal, but Carlyle is basically a defence first coach and he'd rather a more defensive minded, tough-physical defence over offensive skill (which is why Gardiner is out), so the comparisons won't be that accurate based on offensive capability of the defence.

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04-11-2013, 09:25 PM
  #211
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Nice Spin on Ryder I guess the 14 points he scored in dallas don't count
Well, they weren't for the Habs...but if you want to include those and lower his PPG average, that's fine.

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04-11-2013, 09:27 PM
  #212
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Nice Spin on Ryder I guess the 14 points he scored in dallas don't count 34 pts is the right answer
Would you like us to extrapolate Lupul's points too. After all, he wasn't on Toronto just like Ryder wasn't on Montreal

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04-11-2013, 09:29 PM
  #213
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Would you like us to extrapolate Lupul's points too. After all, he wasn't on Toronto just like Ryder wasn't on Montreal
Like I say..Spin it..thats the only way Toronto compares to the Habs

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04-11-2013, 09:29 PM
  #214
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If these two teams do end up playing each other in the first round, or at any point in the playoffs, I seriously hope a mod locks this thread into oblivion once the series starts.

Seeing the ****storm that's developed so far, I can't imagine the thread bumping that would ensue from the winning side, and the petty arguments that would follow

All I gotta say is, I don't envy the mods at all

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04-11-2013, 09:31 PM
  #215
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If these two teams do end up playing each other in the first round, or at any point in the playoffs, I seriously hope a mod locks this thread into oblivion once the series starts.

Seeing the ****storm that's developed so far, I can't imagine the thread bumping that would ensue from the winning side, and the petty arguments that would follow

All I gotta say is, I don't envy the mods at all
Totally agree with this.

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04-11-2013, 09:36 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Take a look around the league as to where first lines generally produce. I'm not saying the Leafs have 9 guys that you'd want on your top line. I'm saying that they could assemble 3 lines which are capable of scoring 60 or more goals over a full season, which is generally what a team gets out of a first line. MacArthur-Grabo-Kulemin have done it. JvR-Bozak-Kessel have 41 already this year, and Lupul-Kadri-Frattin have 32 between them this year, despite the fact that Frattin's played 1/2 of the Leafs games and Lupul 1/4.

We're not talking about consistency, we're talking about capability, which is what matters for depth players. Montreal plays a shutdown game throughout the lineup, so there's good reason to believe that Toronto's checking line should produce substantially more than they have on average.

As I posted before... just look at the numbers top-down this year.

Kessel (40 pts, 40 gms) - Pacioretty (30 pts, 35 gms)
Kadri (40 pts, 40 gms) - Plekanec (28 pts, 38 gms)
Van Riemsdyk (28 pts, 40 gms) - Gionta (24 pts, 39 gms)
Bozak (25 pts, 40 gms) - Desharnais (22 pts, 39 gms)
Kulemin (21 pts, 40 gms) - Gallagher - (21 pts, 35 gms)
MacArthur (18 pts, 33 gms) - Eller (21 pts, 37 gms)
Grabovski (15 pts, 40 gms) - Galchenyuk (20 pts, 39 gms)
Lupul (14 pts, 10 gms) - Ryder (18pts, 19 gms)
McClement (13 pts, 40 gms) - Prust (12 pts, 31 gms)

Who on the Habs can you make the case is better than their production indicates?

BTW, Gallager's PPG level is closer to Kulemin's than it is JvR's. I also find it curious that you put Desharnais in a different category than Bozak.
Meh, I don't really see the "capable of" thing. Otherwise anyone who has ever had a good season then tailed off is capable of it by that logic. That would make Gionta a 1st liner too. Which I don't think he is.

Anyways your chart really shows what I have been saying, Toronto has better top end talent, MTL has better depth, the first few top guys favor Toronto, then it becomes more of an advantage to MTL when you get into the depth.

Edit: That also goes back to a point I mad before, Toronto has relied on there top guys to carry the scoring, and MTL has gotten scoring by committee, including the defense aswell.

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04-11-2013, 09:37 PM
  #217
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Who does Phaneuf pass the Cup to first? Only real question left imo.
Brian Burke.

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04-11-2013, 09:40 PM
  #218
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Like I say..Spin it..thats the only way Toronto compares to the Habs
You've been spinning around enough for the both of us.

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04-11-2013, 09:46 PM
  #219
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Meh, I don't really see the "capable of" thing. Otherwise anyone who has ever had a good season then tailed off is capable of it by that logic. That would make Gionta a 1st liner too. Which I don't think he is.

Anyways your chart really shows what I have been saying, Toronto has better top end talent, MTL has better depth, the first few top guys favor Toronto, then it becomes more of an advantage to MTL when you get into the depth.

Edit: That also goes back to a point I mad before, Toronto has relied on there top guys to carry the scoring, and MTL has gotten scoring by committee, including the defense aswell.
So... you'd really take Galchenyuk over Grabovski???

Toronto has relied on 2 lines for their scoring. That doesn't mean they have inferior depth. It means their depth is being utilized differently.

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04-11-2013, 09:48 PM
  #220
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So... you'd really take Galchenyuk over Grabovski???

Toronto has relied on 2 lines for their scoring. That doesn't mean they have inferior depth. It means their depth is being utilized differently.
is this a joke?

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04-11-2013, 09:51 PM
  #221
Sergei Shirokov
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So... you'd really take Galchenyuk over Grabovski???

Toronto has relied on 2 lines for their scoring. That doesn't mean they have inferior depth. It means their depth is being utilized differently.
I'm not sure where you are making the assumption that I said that...

Your chart was somewhat misleading. You have to look at the games played to see.

What you should really have rated them by was PPG production.

And yeah exactly, Toronto has relied on there top guns to supply most of the scoring, MTL has relied on 3 lines and the defense. That's been my point all along, TOR's depth isn't bad, but MTL's is better heading into this series and depth is really important in the playoffs.

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04-11-2013, 09:58 PM
  #222
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I'm not sure where you are making the assumption that I said that...

Your chart was somewhat misleading. You have to look at the games played to see.

What you should really have rated them by was PPG production.

And yeah exactly, Toronto has relied on there top guns to supply most of the scoring, MTL has relied on 3 lines and the defense. That's been my point all along, TOR's depth isn't bad, but MTL's is better heading into this series and depth is really important in the playoffs.
Well.... you're calling Montreal's depth better than Toronto's. Surely, you must be basing that off of more than the difference between Gallager and Kulemin this year.

Again, Montreal's depth isn't better. They're being used differently. Toronto's generating top 5 offence with high end talent wasting away on the 3rd. Montreal's firing on all cylinders to get their top 5 offence. In the playoffs, if the top 2 lines get shutdown somehow, that 3rd is most likely going to step up.

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04-11-2013, 10:10 PM
  #223
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Leafs in 6.

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04-11-2013, 10:16 PM
  #224
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Toronto sucks defensively. They are +11 and the Habs +32, that difference is huge on a 48 games season. Not even in the same ballpark in term of quality.

But hey, its the leafs fans, the team that each year their fan think they will do better and havent played in the post season in 10 years.

Habs in 5.

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04-11-2013, 10:17 PM
  #225
Sergei Shirokov
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Well.... you're calling Montreal's depth better than Toronto's. Surely, you must be basing that off of more than the difference between Gallager and Kulemin this year.

Again, Montreal's depth isn't better. They're being used differently. Toronto's generating top 5 offence with high end talent wasting away on the 3rd. Montreal's firing on all cylinders to get their top 5 offence. In the playoffs, if the top 2 lines get shutdown somehow, that 3rd is most likely going to step up.
TOR has no high end talent wasting away on the third line, MTL has players on the third line too and they are still producing. And they are playing less minutes on average than Toronto's so actually Toronto is getting more opportunity, MTL's 3rd is just better.

Anyways now to compare PPG.

TOR --------------- MTL
Lupul 1.40 ------- Pacioretty 0.89
Kadri 1.00 -------- Ryder 0.87
Kessel 1.00 -------- Plekanec 0.74
JVR 0.70 --------- Gallagher 0.61
Bozak 0.62 ------- Bourque 0.58

As I said, Toronto has the advantage in the big guns, and the stats prove me correct.

TOR ------------------ MTL
Frattin 0.57 ----------- Gionta 0.58
MacArthur 0.55 ------- Eller 0.58
Kulemin 0.52 ---------- Desharnais 0.58
Grabovski 0.38 -------- Galchenyuk 0.52
McClement 0.32 ------ Prust 0.38

Again this shows the depth of the Canadiens is better. And thats my point. TOR has more scoring firepower and the Canadiens have more scoring depth overall, also there success goes to show that as they have been scoring by committee all year and are one of the top teams in the East.

Then when you also consider the defense of the Canadiens, they have 3 guys (Subban, Diaz, Markov) higher than Toronto's highest (Phaneuf)

I would say once again that Toronto's big guys up front are better for sure, but MTL has better scoring depth both upfront and on the blueline. And knowing the importance depth can play in the playoffs, that evens it up IMO.

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