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Bud Holloway

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Old
04-11-2013, 02:14 AM
  #26
toewsintangibles
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Pretty dumb of Lombardi to compare hockey which is a regional sport in 2 continents to a single country single system sport like baseball

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04-11-2013, 03:17 AM
  #27
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Pretty dumb of Lombardi to compare hockey which is a regional sport in 2 continents to a single country single system sport like baseball
......that was his point.

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04-11-2013, 04:17 AM
  #28
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LOL. Why would he even remotely believe that? Never got a sniff...the reality is DL "screwed" this one up himself -- I don't think DL really sees Holloway as a piece in LA anyway. It happens.
I BELIEVE in the same interview I watched of Dean addressing Bud's situation, he said Bud was in line to be the next call up. He would've had a good shot to make the team the next year but he bolted during the summer and screwed himself. Dean wasn't going to rush him. He did the same to Slava and look how good he turned out.

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04-11-2013, 08:54 AM
  #29
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Not what I said. I said "this one" -- meaning Holloway only. Moreover, if DL thinks Holloway really would be a good player on the Kings it would be terrible management to not pursue him because he got butt hurt. Hockey is a business and a players career is very short...as someone who has been in Holloway's type position I have nothing but respect for him in pursuing other avenues.
Indirectly, it is what you said.

Bud was only going to stay in the Kings fold with a one-way deal. Pretty much, if you're getting a one-way deal, it's with the expectation you'll be in the line up, at least to start the season. As such, that would have had a direct, and at least short-term, binding impact on the pro roster.

Considering that the way DL elected to handle this situation, and other future pro roster movements that season, led to a Stanley Cup, it's hard to say that DL screwed up anything.

I don't blame Bud at all for going. Money is a huge thing to consider, especially in pro sports, so I don't have any fault with Bud pursuing better offers in another league. I'm just not going to chalk up DL's decision as a screw up.

Additionally, there's no way I'd ever consider it a screw up until such time as there is solid evidence as such. No offense to Bud's production or the league he's in, but Bud Holloway putting up record numbers in the SEL does not hurt the Kings at all. Now if he goes on to sign with the Islanders (like so many ex-Kings do that comeback to bite us in the ass) and scores 40 goals a season for a decade, yeah, that one does hurt and maybe DL deserves to be placed under the microscope for it. On the flipside, Bud has just as much chance of being a journeyman minor leaguer/depth forward, which is a dime a dozen in the NHL.

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04-11-2013, 12:21 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Indirectly, it is what you said.

Bud was only going to stay in the Kings fold with a one-way deal. Pretty much, if you're getting a one-way deal, it's with the expectation you'll be in the line up, at least to start the season. As such, that would have had a direct, and at least short-term, binding impact on the pro roster.

Considering that the way DL elected to handle this situation, and other future pro roster movements that season, led to a Stanley Cup, it's hard to say that DL screwed up anything.

I don't blame Bud at all for going. Money is a huge thing to consider, especially in pro sports, so I don't have any fault with Bud pursuing better offers in another league. I'm just not going to chalk up DL's decision as a screw up.

Additionally, there's no way I'd ever consider it a screw up until such time as there is solid evidence as such. No offense to Bud's production or the league he's in, but Bud Holloway putting up record numbers in the SEL does not hurt the Kings at all. Now if he goes on to sign with the Islanders (like so many ex-Kings do that comeback to bite us in the ass) and scores 40 goals a season for a decade, yeah, that one does hurt and maybe DL deserves to be placed under the microscope for it. On the flipside, Bud has just as much chance of being a journeyman minor leaguer/depth forward, which is a dime a dozen in the NHL.
You're reading something into this that isn't there. DL never called Bud up even once -- that sent a powerful signal -- you're not that close. Had he done so Holloway might well have stayed in the organization. The fact that DL was surprised and disappointed that Bud bolted confirms he screwed up -- this is about long term resource management not the cup run.

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04-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
You're reading something into this that isn't there. DL never called Bud up even once -- that sent a powerful signal -- you're not that close. Had he done so Holloway might well have stayed in the organization. The fact that DL was surprised and disappointed that Bud bolted confirms he screwed up -- this is about long term resource management not the cup run.
Voynov was there for the same three seasons as Bud. In fact, Voynov actually played all three seasons at the AHL level, while Bud split his first first between the AHL and ECHL. Additionally, Voynov was a much higher draft pick and had more opportunities for riches back in Russia. And, like Bud, he was never recalled once either.

Did Voynov run off to Europe? No, he came back, and was sent down to the farm again, to start his fourth pro season. He was recalled 15 games in after an injury to Alec Martinez.

Like Bud, Voynov wasn't promised anything, only told that he'd have a good chance to either make the team or, more likely, be the top recall in case of injury. Voynov elected to come back and take the team on their word, Bud elected to go for the money in Europe. It really is that simple. Bud wanted to know he had a spot locked up (IE one-way deal), and when he didn't get that, he left. Voynov stayed and continued to play on his two-way deal until he got recalled. And the Kings were deeper on D at the time than they were upfront, especially in terms of scoring depth on the 3rd and 4th lines.

There is no reading into this something that wasn't there. Bud wanted a pro roster spot by means of his demand of a one way deal, and when DL refused, Bud left for Europe because the pay was greater there than in the AHL. And that's fine. What GM gives out a one-way contract to someone who hasn't even played an NHL game anyways? I doubt there was a GM in the league that would have given Bud what he was insisting on.

Frankly, to me, there is no blame on either side, though I would be upset if DL said he wasn't going to even try and sign Bud simply because of what happened (and there's been no indication of that either). If you really want to point fingers in this case though, you can look at both sides, not just DL.

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04-11-2013, 01:23 PM
  #32
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I've been following him for the past 2 years in Sweden and I'd be very surprised if he didn't manage to carve out a pretty good career in the NHL. Just a very complete player.

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04-11-2013, 01:57 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by cnshockey View Post
I BELIEVE in the same interview I watched of Dean addressing Bud's situation, he said Bud was in line to be the next call up. He would've had a good shot to make the team the next year but he bolted during the summer and screwed himself. Dean wasn't going to rush him. He did the same to Slava and look how good he turned out.
Not one call up during the two years he was the monarchs most effective player. Not oooone bone got tossed his way. Pretty hurting.

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04-11-2013, 02:04 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Voynov was there for the same three seasons as Bud. In fact, Voynov actually played all three seasons at the AHL level, while Bud split his first first between the AHL and ECHL. Additionally, Voynov was a much higher draft pick and had more opportunities for riches back in Russia. And, like Bud, he was never recalled once either.

Did Voynov run off to Europe? No, he came back, and was sent down to the farm again, to start his fourth pro season. He was recalled 15 games in after an injury to Alec Martinez.

Like Bud, Voynov wasn't promised anything, only told that he'd have a good chance to either make the team or, more likely, be the top recall in case of injury. Voynov elected to come back and take the team on their word, Bud elected to go for the money in Europe. It really is that simple. Bud wanted to know he had a spot locked up (IE one-way deal), and when he didn't get that, he left. Voynov stayed and continued to play on his two-way deal until he got recalled. And the Kings were deeper on D at the time than they were upfront, especially in terms of scoring depth on the 3rd and 4th lines.

There is no reading into this something that wasn't there. Bud wanted a pro roster spot by means of his demand of a one way deal, and when DL refused, Bud left for Europe because the pay was greater there than in the AHL. And that's fine. What GM gives out a one-way contract to someone who hasn't even played an NHL game anyways? I doubt there was a GM in the league that would have given Bud what he was insisting on.

Frankly, to me, there is no blame on either side, though I would be upset if DL said he wasn't going to even try and sign Bud simply because of what happened (and there's been no indication of that either). If you really want to point fingers in this case though, you can look at both sides, not just DL.
Difference with Voynov is that he never had the chance to leave. The summer he left is when the NHL and KHL signed their MOU to respect each other's contracts. Voynov has had a valid NHL contract for the past 5 seasons. Never once had any chance he could leave. He has not had the option to leave at all.

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04-11-2013, 03:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Difference with Voynov is that he never had the chance to leave. The summer he left is when the NHL and KHL signed their MOU to respect each other's contracts. Voynov has had a valid NHL contract for the past 5 seasons. Never once had any chance he could leave. He has not had the option to leave at all.
Perhaps. I don't recall the exact date it was signed.

My point being though that Voynov had every right to want out based on the arguments people are giving here and suggesting that no recalls in three years means that Holloway was badly treated. Not everyone gets a recall in three years, even players drafted much higher than Holloway (see Hickey for example). There's not some unwritten rule that you are owed a recall after X number of months/years in the minors. You get recalled when you are good enough to fill the roster spot that has become opne due to trade/poor play/illness/etc. Holloway wasn't deemed ready to take on one of the open roles, assuming one had come open, during those three years. Based on DL's comments and reaction, it seems likely he was near the top of the list to be recalled, or maybe even could have won a spot in training camp, but we'll never know.

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04-11-2013, 03:24 PM
  #36
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Perhaps. I don't recall the exact date it was signed.

My point being though that Voynov had every right to want out based on the arguments people are giving here and suggesting that no recalls in three years means that Holloway was badly treated. Not everyone gets a recall in three years, even players drafted much higher than Holloway (see Hickey for example). There's not some unwritten rule that you are owed a recall after X number of months/years in the minors. You get recalled when you are good enough to fill the roster spot that has become opne due to trade/poor play/illness/etc. Holloway wasn't deemed ready to take on one of the open roles, assuming one had come open, during those three years. Based on DL's comments and reaction, it seems likely he was near the top of the list to be recalled, or maybe even could have won a spot in training camp, but we'll never know.
Near the top of the list? Please. The bottom line is Holloway will be a UFA this summer -- able to choose his own opportunity and the Kings will get nothing. I think he played this beautifully. Of course he still has to prove he can play in the NHL but he will finally get a chance.

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04-11-2013, 05:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Difference with Voynov is that he never had the chance to leave. The summer he left is when the NHL and KHL signed their MOU to respect each other's contracts. Voynov has had a valid NHL contract for the past 5 seasons. Never once had any chance he could leave. He has not had the option to leave at all.
There's also twice as many forwards as defensemen on a roster, so Voynov's chances of a call up weren't nearly as good. It's worth noting that 20 forwards played for the Kings in 2010-2011, and he wasn't one of them. That probably stung a bit.

From everything I've heard, it wasn't just about the money(although it's obviously a pretty big difference), not by a longshot. It had a lot to do with him taking his destiny into his own hands instead of waiting around for a cup of coffee that might never come. Considering how highly sought after he'll likely be this year, can't say it didn't work out for him. Can't blame a guy for betting on himself.

Obviously DL isn't some huge failure as a GM for letting him slip away, especially when he won a cup 10 months ago, but he does deserve a lot of blame, especially considering how unnecessary it all was. Even if it was clear he wouldn't entice Bud to sign, why not trade his rights? He surely could've recovered something for him, and now will lose him for nothing. Poor asset management IMO.

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04-11-2013, 09:31 PM
  #38
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Near the top of the list? Please. The bottom line is Holloway will be a UFA this summer -- able to choose his own opportunity and the Kings will get nothing. I think he played this beautifully. Of course he still has to prove he can play in the NHL but he will finally get a chance.
Yeah, great way to retort. Show me how he wasn't at the or near the top of list.

You just want to slam DL for this. It's a mutual decision essentially and I'd like to see an example of a guy getting a one-way deal without playing one NHL game (with the possible exception of a college UFA signing, but even in those cases I don't recall any off the top of my head). Can't slam DL for doing what any other GM would have done.

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04-11-2013, 09:42 PM
  #39
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Yeah, great way to retort. Show me how he wasn't at the or near the top of list.

You just want to slam DL for this. It's a mutual decision essentially and I'd like to see an example of a guy getting a one-way deal without playing one NHL game (with the possible exception of a college UFA signing, but even in those cases I don't recall any off the top of my head). Can't slam DL for doing what any other GM would have done.
College UFA's are required to sign ELC's, so those would automatically be two-way.

It's not common at all, Jets did this past off-season with D Paul Postma (well 4 career games before hand), but your right it's not that common.

I think mistakes were made on both sides, but it's hard to know exactly without knowing exactly what happened between the two (and we don't and likely will never know exactly how this went down). Both sides have their argument.

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04-11-2013, 09:54 PM
  #40
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Difference with Voynov is that he never had the chance to leave. The summer he left is when the NHL and KHL signed their MOU to respect each other's contracts. Voynov has had a valid NHL contract for the past 5 seasons. Never once had any chance he could leave. He has not had the option to leave at all.
Yes, but did he have the option to leave?

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04-11-2013, 11:03 PM
  #41
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Yeah, great way to retort. Show me how he wasn't at the or near the top of list.

You just want to slam DL for this. It's a mutual decision essentially and I'd like to see an example of a guy getting a one-way deal without playing one NHL game (with the possible exception of a college UFA signing, but even in those cases I don't recall any off the top of my head). Can't slam DL for doing what any other GM would have done.
You just can't be that clueless. Near the top of the list is simply ludicrous. You're either in the show or your not. Since Holloway now holds all the cards its obvious who screwed this up.

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04-11-2013, 11:06 PM
  #42
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Yes, but did he have the option to leave?
No he never did. His contract was continous, as no point did his contract expire. His 3 year ELC slide in both the first two seasons, so he was never a RFA or had a new contract. Voynov had no option to leave, as both the NHL and KHL have signed an MOU (since the Radulov signing) to respect each other's contracts. So Voynov never had the chance to leave.

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04-11-2013, 11:07 PM
  #43
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You just can't be that clueless. Near the top of the list is simply ludicrous. You're either in the show or your not. Since Holloway now holds all the cards its obvious who screwed this up.
He holds nothing, he is some Player in a Euro league that hasn't set foot on NHL ice.

Lombardi is a Stanley Cup winning GM.

Bud has proved nothing.

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04-11-2013, 11:18 PM
  #44
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He holds nothing, he is some Player in a Euro league that hasn't set foot on NHL ice.

Lombardi is a Stanley Cup winning GM.

Bud has proved nothing.
Is there a point to this?

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04-11-2013, 11:20 PM
  #45
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How does Holloway hold all the cards? He was in a great developmental system, and furthermore if what DL says is true, he showed disloyalty, which is not going to win you favor amongst NHL gms

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04-11-2013, 11:21 PM
  #46
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Is there a point to this?
Yup you missed it, in your rambling. See post #45 someone got it.

I understand Bud did what he felt was right for his family and himself.

But just like the real world there is consequences to your actions.

One might be he doesn't get to play for the Defending Stanley Cup Champs....

If he finds another team good for him.

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04-11-2013, 11:24 PM
  #47
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How does Holloway hold all the cards? He was in a great developmental system, and furthermore if what DL says is true, he showed disloyalty, which is not going to win you favor amongst NHL gms
He will be an UFA this summer. Disloyalty? Don't make me laugh. Justin Shultz anyone?

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04-11-2013, 11:28 PM
  #48
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Yup you missed it, in your rambling. See post #45 someone got it.

I understand Bud did what he felt was right for his family and himself.

But just like the real world there is consequences to your actions.

One might be he doesn't get to play for the Defending Stanley Cup Champs....

If he finds another team good for him.
This is rambling at its finest. I congratulate you.

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04-11-2013, 11:45 PM
  #49
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He will be an UFA this summer. Disloyalty? Don't make me laugh. Justin Shultz anyone?
I don't necassarily like what he did. But since he's the Ducks' problem, he's okay by me!

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04-12-2013, 12:41 AM
  #50
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What's the big deal here anyway? I feel like we lose a 7th rounder or something.

If I'm DL I don't sweat Holloway. DL should only reward prospects who follow the regimen, a proven one, than make an exception for such a low prospect. If you do that for a 10th best prospect, how do you tell a top prospect like Voynov or Bernier to stay patient? Better to keep doing what you say, see the prospects develop according to plan, and lose a potential fourth liner. We already have Richardson as the 13th player. If Richie played a whole season in the SEL as a top liner, he'd probably lead the league too.

At least I know Richie can check too and play solid Sutter-style, NHL minutes. With Holloway all I know is he can play in the SEL. He's no Tanner Pearson.

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