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Old
04-11-2013, 06:39 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
I quantified plenty of things on Boyle today. His offensive production is at the bottom of the league for forwards who receive the ice time Boyle receives. That isn't debatable at this point.

Is that Boyle's fault? Nope. It's on Torts for playing him ridiculous minutes a night.

As for PP combos, I'd like to see...

Clowe - Stepan - Nash
Zuccarello - Del Zotto

Hagelin - Brassard - Callahan
Richards - Stralman

No need for Boyle on the PP
Brian Boyle is 10th on our forwards in PP time. Below Pyatt. Below Miller. He has 17 minutes 50 seconds of powerplay time. Without Clowe and Brassard in there, he'd be 8th. That means he's getting PP time when other players are tired since he is not technically a top 2 unit PPer.

Kreider, in his 17 games, had over 13 minutes of PP time. Almost as much as Boyle over 36 games!

Where are you guys getting that Boyle is on the PP all that much? Are you guys watching some random different dimension team where Boyle is on the ice every minute of the game? The guy averages 29 seconds of PP time per game. That's it. If we get 3 PPs, that is 10 seconds PER POWERPLAY.

Zucc, Clowe, and Brassard have all now started taking time away from Boyle even further on the PP. Zucc started when he came. Clowe is assuming Gabby's time. Brassard is the guy bumping Boyle even further down in terms of PP time. Further down from his measly 29 seconds per game that bothers some of you guys so ****ing much.

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04-11-2013, 06:41 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Yes...he's horrible offensively so anyone you bring in can do the same or better. He's good on faceoffs sure - so are plenty of other guys who happen to be making less. He's good on the pk sure - we already have plenty of other guys who are solid on the PK and again you can easily bring in 4th liners who can pk. Additionally the savings you gain by not paying the person to do this role 1.7M lets you spend money elsewhere to improve the team.
No, its really not easy to find those players. If it were, even Sather wouldnt be ****ing up the bottom 6 all season.

You're inventing things.

And I find your lack of awareness and respect towards the defensive side of the puck to be alarming.

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04-11-2013, 06:43 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
No, its really not easy to find those players. If it were, even Sather wouldnt be ****ing up the bottom 6 all season.

You're inventing things.

And I find your lack of awareness and respect towards the defensive side of the puck to be alarming.
The defensive side means ****. Just score goals. Win every game 8-6.

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04-11-2013, 06:43 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
I quantified plenty of things on Boyle today. His offensive production is at the bottom of the league for forwards who receive the ice time Boyle receives. That isn't debatable at this point.
Yep. You're one of the rare ones. You were able to demonstrate a weakness in Boyle using facts.

Normally criticisms of Boyle start with "Boyle makes me feel...".

When statistics are used there's normally a mystical reason why they don't reflect Boyle's true suckiness. It could be that his hits aren't as effective as everyone else's. Or maybe there is something wrong with his possession stats because they don't deduct points for him falling down.

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Old
04-11-2013, 06:45 PM
  #180
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So the 7 or so similar players I listed in regards to faceoff % and offensive skill must not exist then? I am not inventing anything. It is a fact of being a 4th line player. That is basically what defines them - lack of high skill which means they can be replaced. You are just biasing yourself towards you own player. You see Boyle all the time so you know what he does well. You don't see hundreds of games from some random guy on say Phoenix, LA, or Florida for example so even if someone performed the same as Boyle or better you would not know it. I am not disrespecting or lacking awareness of the defensive game. I have said I like his game when played in the correct role. When he is playing twice as much as he should be all the good he does is basically negated by the bad from limiting our offense.

"Zucc, Clowe, and Brassard have all now started taking time away from Boyle even further on the PP. Zucc started when he came. Clowe is assuming Gabby's time. Brassard is the guy bumping Boyle even further down in terms of PP time. Further down from his measly 29 seconds per game that bothers some of you guys so ****ing much."

Not true. He's been on the PP more recently than he had before and he is on the 2nd unit now in front of the net pretty much always.

If Boyle was not on our team and played for someone else would you really be like WOW we gotta go out and trade for this guy?


Last edited by SA16: 04-11-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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04-11-2013, 06:51 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Not true. He's been on the PP more recently than he had before and he is on the 2nd unit now in front of the net pretty much always.
Yes. He's had a bit of an increased PPTOI in the last couple of games. The games that we've been 4-1-1 in. So maybe we need him on the ice even more time on the PP.

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04-11-2013, 06:51 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Brian Boyle is 10th on our forwards in PP time. Below Pyatt. Below Miller. He has 17 minutes 50 seconds of powerplay time. Without Clowe and Brassard in there, he'd be 8th. That means he's getting PP time when other players are tired since he is not technically a top 2 unit PPer.

Kreider, in his 17 games, had over 13 minutes of PP time. Almost as much as Boyle over 36 games!

Where are you guys getting that Boyle is on the PP all that much? Are you guys watching some random different dimension team where Boyle is on the ice every minute of the game? The guy averages 29 seconds of PP time per game. That's it. If we get 3 PPs, that is 10 seconds PER POWERPLAY.

Zucc, Clowe, and Brassard have all now started taking time away from Boyle even further on the PP. Zucc started when he came. Clowe is assuming Gabby's time. Brassard is the guy bumping Boyle even further down in terms of PP time. Further down from his measly 29 seconds per game that bothers some of you guys so ****ing much.
You're not wrong regarding Boyle's totals at all. If you go back a few pages you'll see I did a lot of research on Boyle today.

Among the 32 NHL forwards that average between 14-15 minutes a night, Boyle is 26th in points. That's below average productivity, I'd say. He's tied for one player in points, and of the players behind him, the most games played is Eric Belanger (23).

I think the Boyle PP time has been disputed a lot more recently simply because he's playing more on the power play as of late. So in that sense, Zucc, Clowe, and Brassard are not taking PP time away from Boyle at all.

Of his 17:40 PP TOI, 11 of those minutes have come in the month of April.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Yep. You're one of the rare ones. You were able to demonstrate a weakness in Boyle using facts.

Normally criticisms of Boyle start with "Boyle makes me feel...".

When statistics are used there's normally a mystical reason why they don't reflect Boyle's true suckiness. It could be that his hits aren't as effective as everyone else's. Or maybe there is something wrong with his possession stats because they don't deduct points for him falling down.
Well, when I have a point to make I like to try and prove it to the best of my ability. I guess it's the curse of having a marketing brain and being aware of market research skills

Now If I could only put those "skills" towards a career...

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04-11-2013, 06:53 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Of his 17:40 PP TOI, 11 of those minutes have come in the month of April.
Yeah. Our best month features him on the PP. Hmm. Funny thing is, people have been ****ing *****ing the entire year any time he steps onto the PP. Not just recently.

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04-11-2013, 06:54 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
So the 7 or so similar players I listed in regards to faceoff % and offensive skill must not exist then?
You listed 6. 3 of them were paid more than Boyle.

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04-11-2013, 06:55 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
I guess it's the curse of having a marketing brain and being aware of market research skills
Is that what you majored in?

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Old
04-11-2013, 06:58 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Yeah. Our best month features him on the PP. Hmm. Funny thing is, people have been ****ing *****ing the entire year any time he steps onto the PP. Not just recently.
People will always find something to complain about. Boyle is an easy target. Tortorella should be the real target, but it falls on Boyle because he's the one on the ice.

I definitely see how some posters think Boyle is a serviceable third liner, and I understand that thought process. I just don't buy into it.

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Is that what you majored in?
Indeed! And a Poly Sci minor to boot. I'm a smartypants

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04-11-2013, 07:00 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
People will always find something to complain about. Boyle is an easy target. Tortorella should be the real target, but it falls on Boyle because he's the one on the ice.

I definitely see how some posters think Boyle is a serviceable third liner, and I understand that thought process. I just don't buy into it.
Well, we've been 4-1-1 in our last 6 games and people are still *****ing. That's with Boyle getting good ice time because he has been contributing quite a bit (not in terms of points but in terms of play) since he was moved to wing.

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04-11-2013, 07:01 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Yeah. Our best month features him on the PP. Hmm. Funny thing is, people have been ****ing *****ing the entire year any time he steps onto the PP. Not just recently.
And I assume he must be the reason that were scoring? Cause he's made so many nice passes? So many good deflections? Is great at carrying the puck in the zone? Clowe can do his job of staying in front way better than Boyle can and then we could have Hagelin or double Nash or someone play in his place

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04-11-2013, 07:01 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Well, we've been 4-1-1 in our last 6 games and people are still *****ing. That's with Boyle getting good ice time because he has been contributing quite a bit (not in terms of points but in terms of play) since he was moved to wing.
I can agree there, but I think the Rangers recent successes have more contributing factors than just Boyle moving to the wing. Of course that's a factor, but there's a lot more, and more important ones, there than just Boyle.

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04-11-2013, 07:02 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Well, when I have a point to make I like to try and prove it to the best of my ability. I guess it's the curse of having a marketing brain and being aware of market research skills

Now If I could only put those "skills" towards a career...
Youre networking here. Maybe -31- will make you his assistant director of Brian Boyle statistics.

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04-11-2013, 07:06 PM
  #191
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I can agree there, but I think the Rangers recent successes have more contributing factors than just Boyle moving to the wing. Of course that's a factor, but there's a lot more, and more important ones, there than just Boyle.
When is anything in hockey attributable to one thing?

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04-11-2013, 07:10 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
When is anything in hockey attributable to one thing?
Never, but tying the Rangers recent 4-1-1 record on to Boyle is just wrong. I know Jonathan. wasn't doing that, I just wanted to restate the fact that I think there are plenty more things going right for this team leading to the 4-1-1 record.

My bad, I should have been more clear.

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04-11-2013, 07:15 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Youre networking here. Maybe -31- will make you his assistant director of Brian Boyle statistics.
After he took that goal away from Boyle?

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04-11-2013, 07:16 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Well, we've been 4-1-1 in our last 6 games and people are still *****ing. That's with Boyle getting good ice time because he has been contributing quite a bit (not in terms of points but in terms of play) since he was moved to wing.
4-1-1, still not playing for large portions of games and still in 8th place.

I'm so thankful!

The only game no one should be *****ing is the one WHERE THEY WIN THE STANLEY CUP. You know, that thing that is the whole purpose of winning NHL hockey games.

I'm glad you're happy and settling for mediocrity, however.

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04-11-2013, 07:20 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
After he took that goal away from Boyle?
I went back to check! It wasn't my fault. I was using the TOI tracker on NHL.com, and doubling back to check with the box score.

This has Boyle on the ice for four goals that game. 1 Pens goal, Moore's ES goal, and two PPG's

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...3/TH020538.HTM

Strange

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04-11-2013, 07:48 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
I went back to check! It wasn't my fault. I was using the TOI tracker on NHL.com, and doubling back to check with the box score.

This has Boyle on the ice for four goals that game. 1 Pens goal, Moore's ES goal, and two PPG's

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...3/TH020538.HTM

Strange
Well I wouldn't hire NHL.com as my assistant director of Brian Boyle statistics, either.

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04-11-2013, 08:04 PM
  #197
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Well I wouldn't hire NHL.com as my assistant director of Brian Boyle statistics, either.
I don't know about that, they would come up with amazing names for your Excel workbooks.

"Spreadsheet the Wealth"
"Boyleing Hot"

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04-11-2013, 08:05 PM
  #198
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Let me get this straight. You'd rather play a guy with 4th line offensive abilities 15 minutes per game and $1.7M to play a role that is easily replaceable in free agency every year - that is playing the PK and being decent on face offs? I mean just look at the faceoff leaders there are plenty of 4th line type players that are great on them - Gaustad (WAY overpaid), beagle, boyd gordon, smithson, belanger, handzus. It's a skill that you can easily get a player with - it's really not that big of a deal.

Penalty killing and faceoffs (less so than PK) are replaceable skillsets unlike offense which is much more expensive and harder to replace.
And no, it has nothing to do with him being trusted in late games. It has to do with him being put on lines that are supposed to generate offense - recently with clowe and brassard, previously occasionally with gaborik, callahan etc...recently extremely often on the powerplay.
By coincidence (of course) our powerplay have been good recently.

If he was easy replaceable, and cheap, how come we have to change our bottom six all the time? And isn't the problem really that the guys that Boyle replace aren't producing. I.e. Kreider/Miller.

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04-11-2013, 08:29 PM
  #199
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By coincidence (of course) our powerplay have been good recently.

If he was easy replaceable, and cheap, how come we have to change our bottom six all the time? And isn't the problem really that the guys that Boyle replace aren't producing. I.e. Kreider/Miller.
I am not sure what you mean by change our bottom 6. By replaceable I mean find a player in FA in the offseason who can do what he does. Obviously at this point of the season you can't do that. And yes miller and Kreider did not produce but they were also not given the opportunity. Miller did play a bunch but often on boyles line. Kreider gets benched at random. Of course if they produced though that would have basically solve the issue entirely

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04-12-2013, 05:17 AM
  #200
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I am not sure what you mean by change our bottom 6. By replaceable I mean find a player in FA in the offseason who can do what he does. Obviously at this point of the season you can't do that. And yes miller and Kreider did not produce but they were also not given the opportunity. Miller did play a bunch but often on boyles line. Kreider gets benched at random. Of course if they produced though that would have basically solve the issue entirely
I mean between seasons. How many player, have we got left in our bottom 6 since two seasons ago? Or one season ago? Even if you include players we traded away this season, the answer is still Brian Boyle. Hagelin occasionally. Why? Because he's doing a solid job at a reasonable price (slightly high). Simple as that. If replacing him was that simple, how come we traded away/waived/sent down Rupp, Halpern, Ferreiro, Haley, Fedotenko, Mitchell, Prust etc...either not good enough or because they wanted too much money..

Kreider and Miller wasn't given the opportunity? They where given all the time in the world, yet they did not produce. Should we put Kreider with Nash and Stepan for him to produce and contribute? If that what it takes to get Kreider going he has no business in the NHL. And while Boyle doesn't provide point wise, he isn't a defensive liability.

My point is; it's not as simple as just replace through free agency.

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