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Sticks: What do you use, what do you love/hate, and what's next?

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Old
04-09-2013, 08:55 AM
  #326
Jarick
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Have only heard good things about it. Wish they didn't go with neon orange, a little too flashy for me. But would love to try one.

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04-09-2013, 10:24 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by RedWinger10 View Post
I ONLY shoot Warrior now and plan to stick with it. as I play defense I don't use much of a curve or a wicked lie. I prefer a mild curve and very little-no lie from heel to toe. i prefer a rounded toe. I am currently shooting a Savard curve (it's like the P88 Curve only straighter). Growing up I used the Coffee curve extensively but as I got biger and took harder shots I found that my shots either went left or right and never on target.
I'm finding that Warrior blades go soft really quickly... Any models you've found that the blade lasts on?

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04-09-2013, 10:35 PM
  #328
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I'm finding that Warrior blades go soft really quickly... Any models you've found that the blade lasts on?
Kroniks.

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04-10-2013, 12:08 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by lokomotiv15 View Post
Kroniks.
Anything a little more....recent?

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04-10-2013, 04:39 AM
  #330
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Just picked up a TPS R24 with an Easton carbon blade for 35 in the bargin bucket at my favorite online hockey shop. I think the guy somehow finds outdated stocks to liquidate at rock bottom prices.

It's a bit heavier than a top of the line OPS and the thick walled graphite shaft is a little stiffer than average, but it feels very durable and I liked the puck-feel on the ice last night. My slapshots felt equal to any I've taken with sticks that cost 6 times as much.

I think people are getting carried away with this obsession for high performance gear. I've seen some remarks to the effect that 'you get what you pay for.' But in my experience, and according to the academic litterature, this is clearly not the case.

Modern hockey sticks are a case-study in the law of diminishing returns. Beyond a certain threshold (and its lower than most people think), each increase in price (say increments of $10) yields a lower and lower return in increased performance.

Most of the academic litterature confirms this assertion. This article:

http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...ich-stick-best

acknowledges that a flexible shaft can have a small impact on slap and wrist shot velocities (about 4%), especially for younger players, but the unifying theme of all research on the subject is that player strength and technique are the determining variables.

I think people are buying these crazy expensive sticks more for psychological reasons rather than the quantifiable performance boost they give. But if you're really after performance, you'd do better to buy cheap sticks and apply the saved money to more ice time and a gym membership.

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04-10-2013, 09:24 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Pez68 View Post
Anything a little more....recent?
I'm using a DT2 right now and the blade has held up pretty well. It's been chipping just a bit on the bottom but still pretty stiff.

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04-10-2013, 09:27 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American in Paris View Post
I think people are getting carried away with this obsession for high performance gear. I've seen some remarks to the effect that 'you get what you pay for.' But in my experience, and according to the academic litterature, this is clearly not the case.

Modern hockey sticks are a case-study in the law of diminishing returns. Beyond a certain threshold (and its lower than most people think), each increase in price (say increments of $10) yields a lower and lower return in increased performance.

I think people are buying these crazy expensive sticks more for psychological reasons rather than the quantifiable performance boost they give. But if you're really after performance, you'd do better to buy cheap sticks and apply the saved money to more ice time and a gym membership.
I'd agree that there are diminishing returns on just about everything, including sticks. I think that sweet spot is the model below the top, usually around the $150 mark. The $100 sticks are okay but have crap feel and are blade heavy.

I'll say this though, I've never been able to get fully comfortable since I broke my X:60. My release has never been the same and I've been tinkering ever since.

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04-10-2013, 12:08 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American in Paris View Post
Just picked up a TPS R24 with an Easton carbon blade for 35 in the bargin bucket at my favorite online hockey shop. I think the guy somehow finds outdated stocks to liquidate at rock bottom prices.

It's a bit heavier than a top of the line OPS and the thick walled graphite shaft is a little stiffer than average, but it feels very durable and I liked the puck-feel on the ice last night. My slapshots felt equal to any I've taken with sticks that cost 6 times as much.

I think people are getting carried away with this obsession for high performance gear. I've seen some remarks to the effect that 'you get what you pay for.' But in my experience, and according to the academic litterature, this is clearly not the case.

Modern hockey sticks are a case-study in the law of diminishing returns. Beyond a certain threshold (and its lower than most people think), each increase in price (say increments of $10) yields a lower and lower return in increased performance.

Most of the academic litterature confirms this assertion. This article:

http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...ich-stick-best

acknowledges that a flexible shaft can have a small impact on slap and wrist shot velocities (about 4%), especially for younger players, but the unifying theme of all research on the subject is that player strength and technique are the determining variables.

I think people are buying these crazy expensive sticks more for psychological reasons rather than the quantifiable performance boost they give. But if you're really after performance, you'd do better to buy cheap sticks and apply the saved money to more ice time and a gym membership.
I can't argue with most of what you say here. The prices have gotten out of hand and they won't stop. I'm waiting for the first one north of $300 in the US, probably not far off.

The main thing for me is weight and balance. I can play hockey just fine with a heavier, unbalanced stick, but I hate how it feels. Every since I played with my first top of line stick I knew I was in trouble because I would not be able to comfortably go back. The way I combat this is gift cards for Christmas/Birthdays. I have everything I need so whenever someone asks me what I want I just get gift cards to my LHS. When a stick breaks (I probably go through one a year, I'm not hard on sticks at all) I use my gift cards to pick up a new one. Then you get the stick you want without the sting to your pocketbook.

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04-10-2013, 12:28 PM
  #334
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I just wait for them to be "outdated" and go on sale. But really, the difference in performance of high end sticks from 3 years ago is probably negligible with the current models.

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04-10-2013, 12:33 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American in Paris View Post
It's a bit heavier than a top of the line OPS and the thick walled graphite shaft is a little stiffer than average, but it feels very durable and I liked the puck-feel on the ice last night. My slapshots felt equal to any I've taken with sticks that cost 6 times as much.

I think people are getting carried away with this obsession for high performance gear. I've seen some remarks to the effect that 'you get what you pay for.' But in my experience, and according to the academic litterature, this is clearly not the case.

Modern hockey sticks are a case-study in the law of diminishing returns. Beyond a certain threshold (and its lower than most people think), each increase in price (say increments of $10) yields a lower and lower return in increased performance.

Most of the academic litterature confirms this assertion. This article:

http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...ich-stick-best

acknowledges that a flexible shaft can have a small impact on slap and wrist shot velocities (about 4%), especially for younger players, but the unifying theme of all research on the subject is that player strength and technique are the determining variables.

I think people are buying these crazy expensive sticks more for psychological reasons rather than the quantifiable performance boost they give. But if you're really after performance, you'd do better to buy cheap sticks and apply the saved money to more ice time and a gym membership.
I like this, though if you're going to quote a scientific study, I would spell 'literature' correctly.

To get economical, the rational man would buy at a product pricepoint where the marginal cost of said product is the same as the marginal return. However, while MC can be clearly seen via a price tag, the perception of MR for most (irrational) people is the key key variable here, in that it literally varies from person to person. Most people go by feel and perception, because how can you measure the returns on a hockey stick and quantify it? That's why you have marketing

Of course, you can try modelling it and list your assumptions, but who wants to do that?

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04-10-2013, 12:57 PM
  #336
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Proper term would be marginal utility (MU) as our return is measured in satisfaction

And to be truly honest, we all do buy where MC = MU because, why else would we buy it? Nobody forces us to buy expensive hockey gear; we buy because we want it. If a Mako 2 was $500, we probably wouldn't buy it. If it were $100, we'd probably buy a lot more of them.

I'd adjust the argument that, our demand curve for hockey sticks has been shifted due to successful marketing, making us buy more hockey sticks at higher prices. We get the same satisfaction (utility) buying them though.

/economicsmajor (sorry)

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04-10-2013, 01:01 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Puckstop40 View Post
Has anyone used the Mako 2 yet? Although the stick is ugly as hell, I absolutely love Easton sticks. Curious to how the performance is.
I love my Mako 2, best stick I've used by far. I used to be a full on SE16 guy, didn't really like the EQ50 or the original Mako.

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04-10-2013, 01:06 PM
  #338
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Also on the subject of diminishing returns, that's definitely something I kept in mind when writing the equipment and stick guide up top. Most of my recommendations are for mid-level gear, with a few exceptions up or down that I feel most guys won't notice.

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04-11-2013, 09:10 AM
  #339
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I might also add some anecdotal evidence based on personal observation:

The most skilled players on my club teams, especially those who played at high level, tend to use average-to-inexpensive sticks... several of them prefer wood sticks/blades.

The mediocre/poor players who are passionate about the game and aspire to improve are the ones with the $200 OPS'.

I've see nothing wrong with people spending their money as they please and I don't dispute that the perceived marginal utility may intersect with the marginal cost at a very high price point.

But I do hope that the aspirational types enriching the marketing departments at Bauer and Reebok understand that they are paying for an aspirational product - a luxury good comparable to a Louis Vuitton handbag - that has little-to-no connection with improving their performance on the ice.

Those who do want to invest in performance will find much better returns spending their money on more ice time/skating lessons/weight training, etc.

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04-11-2013, 11:01 AM
  #340
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Oh they should understand that it's aspirational and unnecessary! But most of those who do still want them. How different is that than almost any other type of tiered consumer product? Not a whole lot. There is and always will be a perceived gap, and that's where the money comes through.

The best example in terms of hockey sticks is actually not for those who play ice with $200+ OPS, but rather those who play BALL hockey with $200+ OPS. It's hilarious (though I keep it to myself and steer them elsewhere) when customers want high end sticks for ball hockey and want to pay high end money for them. It's like buying a Bugatti for the sole purpose of driving to the corner store. Massive overkill.

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04-11-2013, 01:51 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by American in Paris View Post
I might also add some anecdotal evidence based on personal observation:

The most skilled players on my club teams, especially those who played at high level, tend to use average-to-inexpensive sticks... several of them prefer wood sticks/blades.

The mediocre/poor players who are passionate about the game and aspire to improve are the ones with the $200 OPS'.

I've see nothing wrong with people spending their money as they please and I don't dispute that the perceived marginal utility may intersect with the marginal cost at a very high price point.

But I do hope that the aspirational types enriching the marketing departments at Bauer and Reebok understand that they are paying for an aspirational product - a luxury good comparable to a Louis Vuitton handbag - that has little-to-no connection with improving their performance on the ice.

Those who do want to invest in performance will find much better returns spending their money on more ice time/skating lessons/weight training, etc.
This might be a generational thing. I've noticed the same, except the skilled players who use average sticks are older, and I know one guy who still uses a classic 5030 Sherwood. But skilled younger guys tend to use the higher end OPS'. Which kinda makes sense to me.

Also about 80% of all the high end OPS reviews online are written by teenagers.

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04-11-2013, 02:00 PM
  #342
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I've used every single top end stick except for maybe some Reeboks and Mako, and the best stick i have ever used was the Warrior Widow SE. The blade breaks soo fast though.

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04-11-2013, 02:15 PM
  #343
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I can't get worked up over guys spending money on gear. I don't know if someone makes $150k as a doctor or $8 an hour bagging groceries. I'm a bad golfer, but you better believe if I made six figures I'd probably have a bag of custom Mizunos or Pings.

Does it really make a difference in the end? Probably not physically, but maybe a bit mentally. And a big chunk of hockey is confidence and feel. That's why I like lighter sticks that have a nice puck feel to them. I still won't pay over $150 for one, but I'll find my deals and pick my spots.

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04-11-2013, 08:46 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by American in Paris View Post
I might also add some anecdotal evidence based on personal observation:

The most skilled players on my club teams, especially those who played at high level, tend to use average-to-inexpensive sticks... several of them prefer wood sticks/blades.

The mediocre/poor players who are passionate about the game and aspire to improve are the ones with the $200 OPS'.

I've see nothing wrong with people spending their money as they please and I don't dispute that the perceived marginal utility may intersect with the marginal cost at a very high price point.

But I do hope that the aspirational types enriching the marketing departments at Bauer and Reebok understand that they are paying for an aspirational product - a luxury good comparable to a Louis Vuitton handbag - that has little-to-no connection with improving their performance on the ice.

Those who do want to invest in performance will find much better returns spending their money on more ice time/skating lessons/weight training, etc.
Maybe those guys just have more disposable income and can easily afford the best.

Or maybe since the skilled players are playing in a league that's a bit below their caliber, they don't feel the need to have the highest performance sticks to be able to compete. But if they played in a higher league, they might opt for the best sticks to better compete at that level.

Anyway, I don't really see the trend you're referring to in the league where I play. I would never pay the $300 we Canadians have to pay for top-of-the-line sticks. I may be wrong but you sound like you resent some average guys having nice gear.

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04-11-2013, 08:48 PM
  #345
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You guys seem to forget that you are not the target market for the top end stick pricepoint.

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04-11-2013, 09:40 PM
  #346
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Upper level, non-pro players (e.g. the better guys in a rec league, used to play h.s. college etc) often use higher end or top level equipment but usually aren't rabid about it. They realize equipment may do something, but it has limitations. Lower level guys often don't know better and really take the bait.

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04-12-2013, 02:45 AM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American in Paris View Post
I might also add some anecdotal evidence based on personal observation:

The most skilled players on my club teams, especially those who played at high level, tend to use average-to-inexpensive sticks... several of them prefer wood sticks/blades.

The mediocre/poor players who are passionate about the game and aspire to improve are the ones with the $200 OPS'.

I've see nothing wrong with people spending their money as they please and I don't dispute that the perceived marginal utility may intersect with the marginal cost at a very high price point.

But I do hope that the aspirational types enriching the marketing departments at Bauer and Reebok understand that they are paying for an aspirational product - a luxury good comparable to a Louis Vuitton handbag - that has little-to-no connection with improving their performance on the ice.

Those who do want to invest in performance will find much better returns spending their money on more ice time/skating lessons/weight training, etc.
I don't know where you're playing but only about 1 in every 20 players I play with in pick up with that have top of the line twigs are average or dusty. That number drops even more when it comes to the men's leagues I play in. A good player is still a good player with a crap twig, but there's no denying how the extra performance you get from a high end stick when you actually know what youre doing.

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04-12-2013, 03:27 AM
  #348
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I may be wrong but you sound like you resent some average guys having nice gear.
I love playing with people who are passionate about the game, whatever their skill level. And I admire the guys who, at 30 years old, decide to play it for the first time.

I don't resent them for having nice gear. My whole point is that the stick price has little to do with on-ice performance. I do resent the manufacturers for polluting our collective conciousness with the idea that you need a $200 OPS to play your A-game.

For adults with disposable income it's no big deal. But I wonder how many parents today are steering their kids away from hockey when they see the prices at a LHS. I also wonder about expediture cascades created on youth teams when one of the kids shows up with a $200 stick.

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04-12-2013, 03:38 AM
  #349
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I don't know where you're playing
I play with a few guys who played NCAA D1 and Junior A back in the day and they all use cheaper sticks. I think they understand the tenuous relationship between stick price and performance. Also, due to their skill and strength, they tend to break a lot of sticks/blades.

Even I, and I'm no where near their skill level, have already broken 4 sticks and/or blades this season. If those had been $200 OPS' the cost would have exceeded my ice-time fees.


Last edited by American in Paris: 04-12-2013 at 06:49 AM.
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04-12-2013, 08:48 AM
  #350
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kind of an out there question but does anyone know what the stock skate profile is for Graf 703 and Easton S17? (ie. radius and pitch). Always used Bauers and don't know too much about Grafs or Eastons.

thx

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