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Hockey in Britain part 3

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04-12-2013, 12:36 PM
  #201
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The O2 and Wembley arena are the only realistic options. They can always curtain off the upper tiers of the O2 if a low attendance "looks bad" but it's not just about looking bad it's about the cost of renting the arena compared to the revenue. It's probably also possible the team wouldn't be able to get enough ice time for training due to concerts and other events.

The Wembley arena is far more practical and smaller, but again there is the issue of other events. I would say it is probably the best option though.

There are also some venues left from the Olympics which could be suitable like the Basketball arena http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium...sketball.shtml and the Copper Box http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium...pper_box.shtml
Though these are unlikely.

There could even be a brand new arena built as part of the "Olympic Legacy" scheme but that probably won't happen.

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04-12-2013, 12:46 PM
  #202
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O2 Arena for games - a smaller & less costly arena for practices? Events at O2 arena are usually known well in advanced so making a schedule around the ices availability wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary for a venue that size that houses a variety of different events.

Think more imports would be attracted to London over some of the smaller markets?

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04-12-2013, 01:37 PM
  #203
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The duty rumour is a team playing out of Wembley Arena, because they are apparently having a new ice plant fitted.

Neil Black has stated that he'd be interested in being involved with a London-based team, it being his long-term goal to set one up.

The O2 is completely unrealistic as a regular ice hockey venue, it being both far too large and, more importantly, in too much demand to be able to hand over regular ice time to a team.

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04-12-2013, 04:59 PM
  #204
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Another potential problem with a London team is the astronomical costs of living in the city

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04-13-2013, 03:45 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Another potential problem with a London team is the astronomical costs of living in the city
It depends how housing is arranged. Yes, no matter which way it is done, there are high initial costs but if house shares are arranged for multiple players (as NA teams based in high rent areas use) then costs can be lessened slightly.

There is also the use of sponsors to cover individual accommodation costs or even having a single sponsor who works in that market. Similar schemes have been sought in order to alleviate specific high costs, Belfast having Air Lingus and Stena Line as sponsors to cover their higher transport costs being a good example.

Yes costs in London are high but nothing is insurmountable. The issue is one of having a professional management team in there from the start who have their eyes open to this, rather than the enthusiastic amateurs who are the usual stock for British ice hockey teams.

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04-13-2013, 04:10 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Another potential problem with a London team is the astronomical costs of living in the city
It depends how housing is arranged. Yes, no matter which way it is done, there are high initial costs but if house shares are arranged for multiple players (as NA teams based in high rent areas use) then costs can be lessened slightly.

There is also the use of sponsors to cover individual accommodation costs or even having a single sponsor who works in that market. Similar schemes have been sought in order to alleviate specific high costs, Belfast having Air Lingus and Stena Line as sponsors to cover their higher transport costs being a good example.

Yes costs in London are high but nothing is insurmountable. The issue is one of having a professional management team in there from the start who have their eyes open to this, rather than the enthusiastic amateurs who are the usual stock for British ice hockey teams.

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04-13-2013, 06:25 AM
  #207
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I was going to suggest Alexandra Palace but would they need to make the rink bigger?

London Racers announced to be starting today. Going by their bio they'll play at Ally Pally.

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04-13-2013, 06:39 AM
  #208
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It's been known for a long time that there would be a new team in Ally Pally but they're starting in NIHL 2 south.

I haven't been there since before the refurbishment but I don't think it's big enough for anything above EPL, and they probably wouldn't even get the gate to survive in EPL, it's a pain in the ass rink to get to. I'm not sure if they even have plexiglass either, they had nets last time I was there.

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04-13-2013, 06:42 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
It's been known for a long time that there would be a new team in Ally Pally but they're starting in NIHL 2 south.

I haven't been there since before the refurbishment but I don't think it's big enough for anything above EPL, and they probably wouldn't even get the gate to survive in EPL, it's a pain in the ass rink to get to.
Yeah, I read the tweet saying there was going to be a new team in the name of the former London Racers EIHL team and I thought that'd be a bit of a jump into the deep end for their first season (Going into the EIHL straight away).

Will be interesting to see how they do.

Do you reckon that there'll also be a EIHL team in London as well in the future?

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04-13-2013, 06:47 AM
  #210
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those are the rumours

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04-13-2013, 07:15 AM
  #211
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Racers applied to play in the NIHL Division 2 South btw.

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04-13-2013, 08:13 AM
  #212
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This is what the seating looks like in Ally Pally, as you can see it's not a lot


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04-13-2013, 09:24 AM
  #213
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Looks like a theater with a rink in the middle

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04-13-2013, 09:43 AM
  #214
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Well the building is about 150 years old, it's massive, they have all sorts of different events in the main hall

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04-17-2013, 12:41 PM
  #215
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So what happened to OHA in UK? I haven't received e-mails about new recruits like last year - are they continuing with that program but sticking with the same roster for another year? Continuing & recruiting more. Or packing it in after 1 year

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04-17-2013, 12:50 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
So what happened to OHA in UK? I haven't received e-mails about new recruits like last year - are they continuing with that program but sticking with the same roster for another year? Continuing & recruiting more. Or packing it in after 1 year
They've been having camps and open try-outs for next year, lots of interest apparently. I'm sure they had something going on last week during the Easter school break because I was in the pub near the rink and a bunch of the coaches came in after having finished for the day.

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04-17-2013, 01:01 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
They've been having camps and open try-outs for next year, lots of interest apparently. I'm sure they had something going on last week during the Easter school break because I was in the pub near the rink and a bunch of the coaches came in after having finished for the day.
Good to hear. Looks like that program has done good for at least 1 kid so far. Michael Stratford got a couple EPIHL games in, looks like he'll probably be on the U18 team next year

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04-17-2013, 01:07 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Good to hear. Looks like that program has done good for at least 1 kid so far. Michael Stratford got a couple EPIHL games in, looks like he'll probably be on the U18 team next year
Stratford has always been a top prospect, I've seen him play since U12s and while he never put up astronomical numbers he's always been a very all rounded player. He will probably get a regular shift for the Wildcats next year, I know you'll love him because of his size.

I hope some of the current OHA roster will stay next year, Ethan James is a very promising goalie.

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04-17-2013, 01:25 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Stratford has always been a top prospect, I've seen him play since U12s and while he never put up astronomical numbers he's always been a very all rounded player. He will probably get a regular shift for the Wildcats next year, I know you'll love him because of his size.

I hope some of the current OHA roster will stay next year, Ethan James is a very promising goalie.
It's funny you mention the size because I was just talking in another thread about how size doesn't matter granted that was for the QMJHL, a league well known for being small. It's a little more important for GB to find some kids with size for their national teams. But that conversation in the Q section was about focusing on developing a player with size > a player with with less size but more skill, which is dumb regardless of where you are in the world lol when it comes to a QMJHL draft you pick the player with the best upside and the best potential that you feel will make an impact for you in that league. annnnnnnyway

When I talk about size here I'm usually looking to hear about goalies with size, but if there's a skater with promising ability & size then it's all the better. I remember you mentioning Jordan Hedley and he's up over 6'0" and he's only 17 or so right? I don't follow the young goalies in GB as much because I know nothing about goaltending, it's the one position I never played All I know is that around here, goalies bust more often then any other position. Don't know why that is exactly. If I'm not mistake, Ethan James is only tiny right? But he's still a baby he has plenty of time to grow, hopefully. Next time your around the OHA team try to find his parents in the stands and measure em up


Side note- Who was that promising goalies a few years back that was doing really well in the EPIHL but then got moved to a really bad team and knowing he'd be stuck behind a brutal team, he quit hockey. Then tried to come back and left again. I remember coming across him a little while back but can't remember his name

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04-17-2013, 01:35 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
It's funny you mention the size because I was just talking in another thread about how size doesn't matter granted that was for the QMJHL, a league well known for being small. It's a little more important for GB to find some kids with size for their national teams. But that conversation in the Q section was about focusing on developing a player with size > a player with with less size but more skill, which is dumb regardless of where you are in the world lol when it comes to a QMJHL draft you pick the player with the best upside and the best potential that you feel will make an impact for you in that league. annnnnnnyway

When I talk about size here I'm usually looking to hear about goalies with size, but if there's a skater with promising ability & size then it's all the better. I remember you mentioning Jordan Hedley and he's up over 6'0" and he's only 17 or so right? I don't follow the young goalies in GB as much because I know nothing about goaltending, it's the one position I never played All I know is that around here, goalies bust more often then any other position. Don't know why that is exactly. If I'm not mistake, Ethan James is only tiny right? But he's still a baby he has plenty of time to grow, hopefully. Next time your around the OHA team try to find his parents in the stands and measure em up


Side note- Who was that promising goalies a few years back that was doing really well in the EPIHL but then got moved to a really bad team and knowing he'd be stuck behind a brutal team, he quit hockey. Then tried to come back and left again. I remember coming across him a little while back but can't remember his name
But I'm sure you complained in the past about someone being small I think it was when I mentioned Ryan Webb, and I distinctly remember you saying you hope Sam Duggan isn't short like his brothers

Yes Jordan Hedley is a big kid, he's listed as 6'2 which is about right. Ethan James is listed at 5'3 and I've seen him once this year but yeah he's only 14, no smaller than most kids at that age.

I'm pretty sure that was Charles Kaylor. He was on a dire Romford team in their last year in the EPIHL before they dropped down to the then ENL.

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04-17-2013, 01:48 PM
  #221
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But I'm sure you complained in the past about someone being small I think it was when I mentioned Ryan Webb, and I distinctly remember you saying you hope Sam Duggan isn't short like his brothers

Yes Jordan Hedley is a big kid, he's listed as 6'2 which is about right. Ethan James is listed at 5'3 and I've seen him once this year but yeah he's only 14, no smaller than most kids at that age.

I'm pretty sure that was Charles Kaylor. He was on a dire Romford team in their last year in the EPIHL before they dropped down to the then ENL.
Oh I've definitely commented on player heights and I do remember the Duggan comment. Hoping for height & saying height is everything are very different I don't mind if GB has some little skilled guys but you hope for a few guys with size/strength and skill to compete on the international stage.

That's the guy! That was driving me nuts a few days ago, trying to figure out who the hell it was. That's kind of a prime example of why I don't focus too much on young goalies in GB, seems like they get pushed to the side so often and not given a chance. Or they have to go to a garbage team to be given a chance at a starting job then they just get shelled, because they're on a garbage team.

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04-17-2013, 02:19 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Oh I've definitely commented on player heights and I do remember the Duggan comment. Hoping for height & saying height is everything are very different I don't mind if GB has some little skilled guys but you hope for a few guys with size/strength and skill to compete on the international stage.

That's the guy! That was driving me nuts a few days ago, trying to figure out who the hell it was. That's kind of a prime example of why I don't focus too much on young goalies in GB, seems like they get pushed to the side so often and not given a chance. Or they have to go to a garbage team to be given a chance at a starting job then they just get shelled, because they're on a garbage team.
Goalies are a crapshoot and their success mostly depends on luck of where they're from and where they play. It all comes down to who you are stuck playing behind and whether there is a surplus of goalies in that area most of the time and catching a lucky break.

A good example I can think of is Declan Ryan, he was originally signed by Telford a few years ago to backup Martin Clarkson who got injured early in the season, Ryan then stepped up and stood on his head and when Clarkson returned from injury they shared the starts for the rest of the season. Ryan caught a lucky break and now he's one of the better goalies in the EPIHL in my opinion.


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04-18-2013, 10:12 AM
  #223
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I was reading THF and actually found an intelligent post relating to our goalie discussion! (I guess pigs do fly)

Quote:
As for why GB don't have more options - because GB doesn't produce goalies to that level very often. It's more by good fortune than anything. Lyle and Murphy happened to be exceptional young goaltenders given a chance by their club in a different time. Murphy got a chance with a strong Fife team in a competitive BNL, Lyle's rise is well documented.

Bowns, IMHO, did the things the 'right' way - NIHL starter, EPL starter and now EIHL. But these opportunities are limited for various reasons

Others haven't - Coventry signed one of the best goaltending prospects in the country in Thomas Murdy; and he went back down again. He may come back up, but the 'odds' do not exactly stack in his favour.

Colclough went up, and has gone back down. Flavell also - perhaps for slightly different reasons, but that brings me on to the next point

Colclough was #1 for IOW this year - why would he want to bench warm in Basingstoke when he can play for the Raiders? And that's without mentioning money... - Would Mark Lee, just for example, earn the same wages and get any where close to a 'good' amount of ice time if he went to an EIHL club? I doubt any EIHL team would give him the starting role, and they won't want to pay a backup a great deal...

Several long standing EPL goalies warrant at least an opportunity to show what they can do IMHO - but again we come back to opportunity, and the willingness of clubs up the chain to give those opportunities.

And there lies your next problem, for the vast majority of EIHL teams (and some EPL and NIHL to be fair) the backup is either cheap, local (normally both) and willing to 'live the life' for a couple of years. If they happen to be any good, that's just a nice bonus. But it doesn't always seem to be required...

Meanwhile others go EPL, earn a decent bit of pocket money and start a career or similar. By the time an EIHL club might come sniffing they are normally 'set' in a job, and thus we come back to money and opportunity again. Would a good EPL goalie for, say, Slough want to up sticks and move to Edinburgh? A few might, for most it is simply not worth it.

That's not necessarily the fault of the EIHL clubs in some respects, simply economics I suppose. But the long and the short of it is that the development ladder for British goaltending is broken. Shattered even.
It's basically what I was try to say but he has explained it much better than me

Matt Colclough is an interesting case, he was a top goalie in juniors from Guildford, then had to sit out a season because he had nowhere to go (No NIHL team in Guildford, no room for him anywhere else close) then went to the Island for a couple and turned into a top NIHL goalie. He then went to Basingstoke and shared starts and did alright. The following season Basingstoke wanted to go for a different model and brought in Lyle obviously, leaving no room for Colclough on any of the other EPL teams in the south as they all had established #1 goalies. So now he's back on the IOW playing in a league which is quite frankly beneath him, he's good enough to start in the EPL.


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04-18-2013, 10:38 AM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
I was reading THF and actually found an intelligent post relating to our goalie discussion! (I guess pigs do fly)



It's basically what I was try to say but he has explained it much better than me

Matt Colclough is an interesting case, he was a top goalie in juniors from Guildford, then had to sit out a season because he had nowhere to go (No NIHL team in Guildford, no room for him anywhere else close) then went to the Island for a couple and turned into a top NIHL goalie. He then went to Basingstoke and shared starts and did alright. The following season Basingstoke wanted to go for a different model and brought in Lyle obviously, leaving no room for Colclough on any of the other EPL teams in the south as they all had established #1 goalies. So now he's back on the IOW playing in a league which is quite frankly beneath him, he's good enough to start in the EPL.
Ye that post was pretty well put and it's kind of how I've viewed goaltending in GB. It's kind of another example of teams putting winning now > future.

My take is that I would rather develop my own goalies in my system, rather then trying to draw in an expensive import. I'd rather the goalie who came up in my system with loyalty to my team, not to mention if something happened to him I'd like to have a secondary or even tertiary options available to me if (example - if he decides to go elsewhere, gets injured, etc.)

Seems like most EIHL clubs are pure short time thinkers and that thinking trickles down the system to EPL (Am I the only one that says EPIHL?) & NIHL

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04-18-2013, 11:06 AM
  #225
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Ye that post was pretty well put and it's kind of how I've viewed goaltending in GB. It's kind of another example of teams putting winning now > future.

My take is that I would rather develop my own goalies in my system, rather then trying to draw in an expensive import. I'd rather the goalie who came up in my system with loyalty to my team, not to mention if something happened to him I'd like to have a secondary or even tertiary options available to me if (example - if he decides to go elsewhere, gets injured, etc.)

Seems like most EIHL clubs are pure short time thinkers and that thinking trickles down the system to EPL (Am I the only one that says EPIHL?) & NIHL
I wouldn't say the "win now" thinking trickles down to the EPL (we just say EPL because it's easier), all clubs except Guildford make the effort to develop junior players and give them a chance. But it certainly adversely affects the league as the lack of decent British goalies in the EIHL causes a surplus of EPL level goalies and there's a lack of space and opportunity for young promising goalies further down the ladder to develop properly. As explained previously Ben Bowns was in the right setup to do it, he just happened to be from Sheffield.

The reason the teams are all in "win now" mode is because this isn't the NHL or Canadian junior hockey and the teams don't have thousands of die hard fans who would continue to show up to games even if they're in the draft lottery year after year. The UK is the capital of fair weather sports fans and unless teams are winning the fans aren't going to show up. During their losing years the teams might develop a few good players but because of their small fanbase they won't be able to afford to keep them long enough to see the benefits as one of the bigger teams will just offer them a better deal, so there's not really any incentive.


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