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*OFFICIAL* Windsor Spitfires 2013 Off-Season Thread

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04-12-2013, 03:37 PM
  #176
Ottomatic
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
To me, this was never an issue because I'd rather be a player who gets along with my coaches and thinks of them as a father figure. It didn't seem to hurt the last group of players, either.
You call your father by his first name? I think Coach Boughner, Coach Jones, Coach Smith and Mr. Rychel is much more appropriate in a coach-owner/player situation. Do high school teachers allow themselves to be called by their first names?

Mentors/father figures more often than not are not on first name basis with those they're in charge over. Look at coaches in university ranks - do you think players call him Rick or Coach Pitino? Coach Izzo or Tom? or look in the military, look at teachers...


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04-12-2013, 03:40 PM
  #177
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Not trying to be a jerk, but can you provide an example of the lack of regard for the fanbase or the lack of accountability?
The whole recruitment violation debacle and secrecy.

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04-12-2013, 03:43 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
You call your father by his first name? I think Coach Boughner, Coach Jones, Coach Smith and Mr. Rychel is much more appropriate in a coach-owner/player situation. Do high school teachers allow themselves to be called by their first names?
I agree with you, but it has been a trend over the past for teachers, particularily of younger grades to be called by their first names. I don't really like it, but then I find myself telling the neighbour's kids to call me by my first name and not my last name.

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04-12-2013, 03:44 PM
  #179
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Your right on we shouldnt judge the Jones/johnson incidents OHLTG, but it raises my ire that these guys are not taught more self disipline that they represent the Windsor spitfires and are not just some john doe's out in public.They are under a microscope and the org. will pay in $$$ in some way.A line has to be installed that shouldnt be crossed.Teach them to walk away from these situations.

I will have to disagree with your bandwagon fans comment.I think fans have been disappointed by many things since the cup wins.From the way the league operates to the sanctions to not getting the missy memcup etc to disposable income issues in the city.I beleive the fans support the Spits not just when they are winning.Alot of issues are present.

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04-12-2013, 03:49 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
The whole recruitment violation debacle and secrecy.
Yeah I've struggled with this, because I can see two sides; as a fan I am curious to know what rules were broken and why they were broken, but I also appreciate the fact that they didn't throw the kids under the bus.

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04-12-2013, 03:57 PM
  #181
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You call your father by his first name? I think Coach Boughner, Coach Jones, Coach Smith and Mr. Rychel is much more appropriate in a coach-owner/player situation. Do high school teachers allow themselves to be called by their first names?
For what it's worth, I've heard the players use the coaches nicknames more than their first names. As for sons/fathers...I've heard many times a kid calling their parent by their first name. To each their own, after a certain age. If you're 16, I have no problem with it (maybe that'll change when I have kids, who knows). Oh, and I know multiple post-secondary profs who told us to call them by their first name. It established a personal bond, instead of just student/teacher. Those were some of the easiest years of my life. I know it's not for everyone, but don't assume "Mr/Mrs" or "Sir" is best for everyone, either.

Quote:
Your right on we shouldnt judge the Jones/johnson incidents OHLTG, but it raises my ire that these guys are not taught more self disipline that they represent the Windsor spitfires and are not just some john doe's out in public.
Agreed in general, but with these incidents, for all we know, the members could have been completely innocent. That's why I'm saying not to use these examples, period, when it comes to off-ice discipline.

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Teach them to walk away from these situations.
Trust me, this is far easier said than done.

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I beleive the fans support the Spits not just when they are winning.
That arena would have 6k+ every game if this were true.

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04-12-2013, 04:04 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Raisy View Post
Yeah I've struggled with this, because I can see two sides; as a fan I am curious to know what rules were broken and why they were broken, but I also appreciate the fact that they didn't throw the kids under the bus.
But also how they flatly and frankly denied it from the get-go, and then admit it but the refuse to talk about it. It wouldn't be throwing the kids under the bus - they're grown adults no longer on the team who decided to sign their names to statements against the team. And it's their parents who likely made the side deals to begin with, it's not like a 15 yr old is going to play hardball on their own. And not naming names puts innocent players under the cloud. As I've mentioned here previously I've heard Campbell, Ryan, Fowler, Watson Koko, Peca, Bill Dark all rather matter of factly claimed to be the people involved. Given the press says it's two cases, it means five of those folks are wrongfully under suspicion. London fan here seems pretty matter of fact that former spit goalie coach and current London goalie coach Bill Dark is involved - if so that stinks to high heaven and he shouldn't get to hide.

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04-12-2013, 07:40 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
But also how they flatly and frankly denied it from the get-go, and then admit it but the refuse to talk about it. It wouldn't be throwing the kids under the bus - they're grown adults no longer on the team who decided to sign their names to statements against the team. And it's their parents who likely made the side deals to begin with, it's not like a 15 yr old is going to play hardball on their own. And not naming names puts innocent players under the cloud. As I've mentioned here previously I've heard Campbell, Ryan, Fowler, Watson Koko, Peca, Bill Dark all rather matter of factly claimed to be the people involved. Given the press says it's two cases, it means five of those folks are wrongfully under suspicion. London fan here seems pretty matter of fact that former spit goalie coach and current London goalie coach Bill Dark is involved - if so that stinks to high heaven and he shouldn't get to hide.
Have to agree 100% Otto, let this whistleblower be outed.If you can accuse you can be a man and face the music.Lets stop the suspicions and bring everything out for the sake of the team and fan's.

If the team did this the cloud would be lifted IMO.All this speculation makes for this topic to continue indefinetly and will never cease.End it once and fo all so everyone can move on.No more hiding for the whisleblower or the team.Then fans can make a true judgement not just on heresay.

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04-13-2013, 03:15 AM
  #184
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Have to agree 100% Otto, let this whistleblower be outed.If you can accuse you can be a man and face the music.Lets stop the suspicions and bring everything out for the sake of the team and fan's.

If the team did this the cloud would be lifted IMO.All this speculation makes for this topic to continue indefinetly and will never cease.End it once and fo all so everyone can move on.No more hiding for the whisleblower or the team.Then fans can make a true judgement not just on heresay.
I am of the opinion that the league did not want the Spits to go to court as part of the appeal process because that would make their witnesses and the complaintants public. The reduction in penalty was possibly part of an agreement that witnesses and the complaintants be kept unknown.

The league probably had to give confidentiallity to get the info they needed on the Spits.

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04-13-2013, 07:57 AM
  #185
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The league probably had to give confidentiallity to get the info they needed on the Spits.
I have to agree although I'm of the opinion the Spits should have held 'Wee Davie's' feet to the fire and demanded that no 1st round picks should be lost.

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04-13-2013, 11:23 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by coachfluffy View Post
I am of the opinion that the league did not want the Spits to go to court as part of the appeal process because that would make their witnesses and the complaintants public. The reduction in penalty was possibly part of an agreement that witnesses and the complaintants be kept unknown.

The league probably had to give confidentiallity to get the info they needed on the Spits.
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Originally Posted by punch1943 View Post
I have to agree although I'm of the opinion the Spits should have held 'Wee Davie's' feet to the fire and demanded that no 1st round picks should be lost.
Exactly. Why accept what they did and admit guilt when they could have pushed the court issue and Branch would have had to fold? I don't get what the Spits got out rolling over on it - the fine was reduced by $150K, but they still had to pay $250K and lost the 4th overall pick - still will have to forfeit another first yet and two seconds.

So there has to be more.

It stinks. And Warren's attitude about it stinks.

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04-13-2013, 11:35 AM
  #187
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I have to agree although I'm of the opinion the Spits should have held 'Wee Davie's' feet to the fire and demanded that no 1st round picks should be lost.
Who gave the legal advice for this stinks and should be fired as legal counsel.

Should have been if no names come out , no 1st rd picks lost case closed.

If we lose them then everything is on the table for all to see.This way it is now does not do Boug/WR/fans any good.

they should have called Jeffrey Feiger..lol

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04-13-2013, 12:37 PM
  #188
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If we lose them then everything is on the table for all to see.This way it is now does not do Boug/WR/fans any good.
You're assuming that what would come out would make the Spits look better than they do now. Maybe BB/WR are afraid of having the truth come out more than the league is. If they wanted it on the table presumably they would have taken it to court just as you say.

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04-13-2013, 12:38 PM
  #189
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I figure Branch threatened to go after the banners if Spits pushed it.

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04-13-2013, 12:39 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
You're assuming that what would come out would make the Spits look better than they do now. Maybe BB/WR are afraid of having the truth come out more than the league is. If they wanted it on the table presumably they would have taken it to court just as you say.
Why was the penalty lessened if Branch had Spits like he claimed? What could be worse when everybody assumes the worst already?

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04-13-2013, 12:44 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Raisy View Post
Not trying to be a jerk, but can you provide an example of the lack of regard for the fanbase or the lack of accountability?
When you knowingly break league rules, and are publically punished for it, to the extent that your fans suffer for it, you come out and own up to it.

WE PAY their salaries with OUR hard earned money. WE make patronage to that building, buy their merchandise, and spend our time there. The Windsor Spitfires are WINDSOR'S TEAM, and they screwed us. We won't host now, so we lose out on a HUGE event, the City loses a lot of extra revenue for it, outside of the entertainment value.

Am I clear?

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04-13-2013, 12:45 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
Why was the penalty lessened if Branch had Spits like he claimed? What could be worse when everybody assumes the worst already?
Because it doesn't look good on the league either. Because it wasn't worth the fight. Because they didn't want to out the whistleblowers. Because he wants to give the Spits the 2014 Mem Cup. Any or all of the above.

Everybody assumes it was only two players. That's not what the press release says. It says two investigations. That could be two very different things. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it could be.

Quote:
“The League conducted two separate investigations led by our Director of Security and Enforcement, and in considering all the facts, I was persuaded that the Windsor Spitfires Hockey Club violated the League’s Player Benefit and Recruitment Rules and Policies.

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04-13-2013, 12:59 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
You're assuming that what would come out would make the Spits look better than they do now. Maybe BB/WR are afraid of having the truth come out more than the league is. If they wanted it on the table presumably they would have taken it to court just as you say.
No Im not saying it would make the Spits look better, it would give closure to a bad situation.This way now we can never move on.Bad choice by the spits org and league.

Also the magic word is that Branch was "persuaded" what does that mean ?? To me it says coerced.It wasnt clear cut to him and he needed a talking to before he agreed.

Just a bad situation all around.Is it still happening in the league, we'll never know.

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04-13-2013, 01:29 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Because it doesn't look good on the league either. Because it wasn't worth the fight. Because they didn't want to out the whistleblowers. Because he wants to give the Spits the 2014 Mem Cup. Any or all of the above.

Everybody assumes it was only two players. That's not what the press release says. It says two investigations. That could be two very different things. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it could be.
If Branch was worried about how the league looked, why make such a huge show with ridiculous level of penalties? Branch was in all his glory with the announcement. He loved every second of it.

Why wouldn't it be worth the fight? If they broke the rules and he had them dead to nuts like he wanted everybody to believe, he has no reason not plead it down.

If he didn't want to out the whistleblowers, than the issue becomes why didn't the Spits press on in court. Either make Branch out them in court or have him pull all penalties and apologize publicly. They're not whistleblowers - they're rats. They're rats because they directly benefited from the "recruitment violations" and once out of the reach of Branch, decide to rat.

Yeah, because Branch wants to give the Spits the Memorial Cup. That's gotta be it. Branch will never show his face in the WFCU again - book that. He's in Hunter's back pocket and is going to destroy the CHL if he's not retired soon. All the moves he's making now is the exact opposite of what he should be doing in the face of the rising legitimacy of NCAA as a real pro-path option.

As to your second point - exactly why it should come out, because you can assume anything you want. Now you get to assume it's whatever you decide to imagine up.

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04-13-2013, 02:47 PM
  #195
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Back in 2009 when all the manipulation talk was going on with the draft it was soon after the OHL hired Miller and that changed a lot of things moving forward. Teams immediately were put on notice the league was getting serious. That was right about the peak of Windsor's great run and probably attracted the new guy who was just hired. Maybe with all the defections into Windsor it stood out like a sore thumb making this guys new role easy. I don't believe the Rangers or Knight's have done anything since 2008, 09 since he was hired to warrant any special heat.....but Windsor made it look suspicious with player after player heading there over 2 year period. Just maybe Boog and Rychel should of also heeded the warnings and the league gave everyone fair notice. I doubt they ever release names of anyone involved with the courts and chances of libel suites going the other way. Otto I don't see how you think Hunter is in Branch's pocket......look at their whole team and spare players rosters....they drafted almost the entire thing.

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04-13-2013, 03:28 PM
  #196
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Branch the man with the big hammer, never reduced a penalty no matter how out of wack. Reduced his largest piece of work to date. Something doesn't add up. As someone who pays the bills I want to know the RATS who have screwed me over. Spits don't care they take my money win or lose.

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04-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #197
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Ottomatic:

RE: How the league looks: Branch probably thinks that his harsh penalties for headshots and fighting make the league look like the gold standard for good clean hockey.

RE: Not worth the fight: If the costs of lawyers is > or = to the difference between the original fine and the agreed fine (once adjusted for TVOM) then it is not worth the process. Doesn't matter if you're going to win or not.

RE: Outing the whistleblowers: Perhaps they thought Branch was going to win. Therefore their evaluation process becomes is it worth $150K + legal fees + OHL's legal fees to have the information out there.

RE: Memorial Cup In Windsor: Didn't say it was likely...yeah, you're right, I'll retract that one.

RE: Assumptions: I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying everyone assumes it is only two players when all that has been stated is that it was two investigations. Who knows? You're assuming that it was one of the players who took the compensation that spoke out. Might have been a fourth liner who didn't take a red cent but thought he got sent back down to Jr. B because of some of the other players that were brought in.

Ottomatic/youngblood10:

Most of the free world is looking for increased whistleblower protection. You guys want them diminished. Interesting.

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04-13-2013, 04:00 PM
  #198
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^There is a difference between a whistleblower and a RAT. A whistleblower sees something wrong and contacts proper authorities or the press to shine sunlight on it. The RAT takes part in the shady dealings and then RATS when they get caught, for revenge or they see personal benefit out of doing so.

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04-13-2013, 04:02 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by SimonKnightsman View Post
Back in 2009 when all the manipulation talk was going on with the draft it was soon after the OHL hired Miller and that changed a lot of things moving forward. Teams immediately were put on notice the league was getting serious. That was right about the peak of Windsor's great run and probably attracted the new guy who was just hired. Maybe with all the defections into Windsor it stood out like a sore thumb making this guys new role easy. I don't believe the Rangers or Knight's have done anything since 2008, 09 since he was hired to warrant any special heat.....but Windsor made it look suspicious with player after player heading there over 2 year period. Just maybe Boog and Rychel should of also heeded the warnings and the league gave everyone fair notice. I doubt they ever release names of anyone involved with the courts and chances of libel suites going the other way. Otto I don't see how you think Hunter is in Branch's pocket......look at their whole team and spare players rosters....they drafted almost the entire thing.
Windsor didn't get everybody to come over - they missed out on Austin Czarnik, Jordan Schmaltz, Matthew Peca, Blake Pietilla, Stephen Johns, Riley Barber from the 2008-2010 alone. And will miss out on Butcher, Allen, Baughman, Nick Schmaltz more recently.

Everybody knows the Domi deal was cooked from the get go.


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04-13-2013, 04:35 PM
  #200
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The Domi deal was a hockey trade. Gilmour took him knowing hed do well when he flipped him. He got a great deal out of it. And from what I heard from someone in the Fronts war room that day, the deal wasnt cooked before hand, Doug's decision to grab him and flip him knowing he wouldn't report. Smart on Dougie to use the system. I'm not good friends with the scout or anything, just talking with a group and he's as going on bout the draft day story. It's kinda funny actually if its true.

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