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Old
04-12-2013, 04:34 PM
  #101
Rielly4
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Its getting annoying how a few huge contracts are now making great players worth 8 mil when they used to be worth 6 and only league leaders like Ovi and Crosby were worth 8. Now average 2nd liners are getting 5 yet the cap is going down... Ridiculous.

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04-12-2013, 04:37 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Rielly4 View Post
Its getting annoying how a few huge contracts are now making great players worth 8 mil when they used to be worth 6 and only league leaders like Ovi and Crosby were worth 8. Now average 2nd liners are getting 5 yet the cap is going down... Ridiculous.
It was good value %-wise when the deal was originally signed. Since the cap will go down next season it looks worse than it really is. The problem is too many teams in the league means the talent is spread thin and those 2nd liners are going to get paid because they're just as important as first liners.

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04-12-2013, 04:50 PM
  #103
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I'm not a huge fan of Bozak as a number 1C on this team but its still better than Grabo playing there with Kessel.

Grabo is a shoot first centre with tons of compete level but he's not great on face offs and he's prone give always at the offensive blue line.

They paid him too much to play him anywhere other than 1C or 2C and, unfortunately for him, his style won't work with Kessel on the first line and he's been grossly outplayed this year by Kadri.

They tried him as a checking line centre and he did reasonably well for a guy who's never done that before but, they just can't afford to pay a guy 5.5 million to fill that role.

It's a crappy situation for him and the team.

What's the solution? Personally I'd trade him if the value coming back is reasonable.

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04-12-2013, 05:04 PM
  #104
Dangles McGavin
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Kadri - Couturier - Bozak - McClement down the middle would be glorious.

I'd be willing to pay Bozak 4 mil tops.

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04-12-2013, 06:15 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
There were other replies that questioned your Grabo/Kessel/JVR line. I noticed this.

And for good reasons I might add.
Fair enough. Plenty of other posters agreed with me as well.

I just wanted to get some perspective on your position other than what you can gauge with your eyes and rudimentary stats.

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Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
Kadri - Couturier - Bozak - McClement down the middle would be glorious.

I'd be willing to pay Bozak 4 mil tops.
Would love love love Couter here. But I doubt Philly gives him up without an overpayment.

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04-13-2013, 07:30 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NaiveLeafsFan View Post

Grabovski: His Corsi Rel Quality of Comp is the highest on the team, at 1.614, the highest on the team. This means he's facing the toughest competition. I.e. Bozak isn't facing top lines, Grabovski is.

Moreover, he's getting 38.7% of his draws in the offensive zone, meaning he's facing top lines in his own zone for most of the game. Which is second lowest next to McClement who gets thrown out there often as an extra centre, somewhat inflating his
These are factors that a lot of people ignore. Grabo HAS been an effective player for us this year. Look at our GAA, its quite a bit better than previous seasons. Part of that is McClement, Carlyle, etc. but Grabo has also been reasonably effective in a shutdown role. So just looking at his point totals doesnt tell the whole story.

In saying that, you don't pay 5.5M for a checking C. Even if he has been reasonably effective in that role, he's incredibly overpaid for that role. The going rate is closer to 3-3.5M, and thats usually for a player who will also play 2-3 minutes on the PK a night, which Grabo doesnt do.

When in an offensive role? 5.5M is still overpaid. You dont pay that for a guy who's never topped 60 points, and who looks like he'll average high 40s - mid 50s for points. Two-way centres who put up those types of points get closer to 4-4.5M. Any way that you slice it, him being used as a checking C or him being used in an offensive role, he's overpaid IMO.

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04-13-2013, 07:33 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
Kadri - Couturier - Bozak - McClement down the middle would be glorious.

I'd be willing to pay Bozak 4 mil tops.
That would be a great centre core if we could pry Couturier out of Philly.

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04-13-2013, 08:23 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
These are factors that a lot of people ignore. Grabo HAS been an effective player for us this year. Look at our GAA, its quite a bit better than previous seasons. Part of that is McClement, Carlyle, etc. but Grabo has also been reasonably effective in a shutdown role. So just looking at his point totals doesnt tell the whole story.

In saying that, you don't pay 5.5M for a checking C. Even if he has been reasonably effective in that role, he's incredibly overpaid for that role. The going rate is closer to 3-3.5M, and thats usually for a player who will also play 2-3 minutes on the PK a night, which Grabo doesnt do.

When in an offensive role? 5.5M is still overpaid. You dont pay that for a guy who's never topped 60 points, and who looks like he'll average high 40s - mid 50s for points. Two-way centres who put up those types of points get closer to 4-4.5M. Any way that you slice it, him being used as a checking C or him being used in an offensive role, he's overpaid IMO.

This is the truth. Put Grabo with Kess and we have no shut-down line anymore, our GAA goes up, and we start losing more games. Besides Grabo's not a playmaker - sticking two possession guys on the same line doesn't usually produce well.

Yes, he's overpaid. We all know that. By how much? 1 to 2 mil likely, so really not that bad.

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04-13-2013, 08:48 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
These are factors that a lot of people ignore. Grabo HAS been an effective player for us this year. Look at our GAA, its quite a bit better than previous seasons. Part of that is McClement, Carlyle, etc. but Grabo has also been reasonably effective in a shutdown role. So just looking at his point totals doesnt tell the whole story.

In saying that, you don't pay 5.5M for a checking C. Even if he has been reasonably effective in that role, he's incredibly overpaid for that role. The going rate is closer to 3-3.5M, and thats usually for a player who will also play 2-3 minutes on the PK a night, which Grabo doesnt do.

When in an offensive role? 5.5M is still overpaid. You dont pay that for a guy who's never topped 60 points, and who looks like he'll average high 40s - mid 50s for points. Two-way centres who put up those types of points get closer to 4-4.5M. Any way that you slice it, him being used as a checking C or him being used in an offensive role, he's overpaid IMO.
What's interesting is that we're really mixing up roles. One being a shut down forward, the other being a third line checking forward. Having said that, these roles are simply not the same.

A third line checking forward is normally a blue collar line that will play general checking duties. These type of forwards usually do not have the ability to shut down top players. Since these forwards have limited offensive capability, they'll largely be in the opposition zone. In contrast, a shut down player doesn't just contain the opposition's scoring lines, but maintains puck possession in the offensive zone.

An example of a shut down forward would be John Madden. He was effective in maintaining puck possession against top offensive lines and scored essential short-handed goals. With this in mind, do you know what he was being paid? From 2005-2009, he was earning around 4 million per ( 25-41pts output). Similarly, Jordan Staal never produced over 50 pts, and is signed to a 6 million per deal.

Seeing that Grabovski had produced 29 goals, 58pts, while he's taking on top opposition, I understand the 5.5 million per. He was still developing and it actually looks quite fair. Since Burke didn't employ cap circumvention and now it's gone, it's obvious that cap hits will increase. In short, parity will be promoted as skilled players leave top teams.

PS: Jordan Staal @ 24 pts, Jeff Skinner @ 21 pts ( 35GB, 5.725 million per). Heck Mikko Koivu ibeing paid 6.7 million per ( 7.29m for next season) is just producing 33 pts.

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04-13-2013, 08:49 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaiveLeafsFan View Post
Fair enough. Plenty of other posters agreed with me as well.

I just wanted to get some perspective on your position other than what you can gauge with your eyes and rudimentary stats.



Would love love love Couter here. But I doubt Philly gives him up without an overpayment.
There's no reason to break up Bozak, Kessel based on their play this year and JVR and Kadri is cemented as the #2C now. So Grabo has to learn or find a way to contribute on the 3rd line. That's what it comes down to. If he can cut down on the giveaways, and contribute a few more goals, then he will contribute. Not ideal we have to pay 5.5 for a #3C but this year it is something that won't hurt us cap wise. In the future when decisions are made with salaries with players that are UFA's and RFA's on our roster, it will affect our cap situation.

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04-13-2013, 08:53 AM
  #111
Mojo19
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We should keep Bozak simply because our FO% would be terrible without him.
3rd line role is where he should be.

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04-13-2013, 09:01 AM
  #112
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We should keep Bozak simply because our FO% would be terrible without him.
3rd line role is where he should be.
This is the biggest fallacy on this board, Bozak is not just a face-off specialist. It's a valuable talent to have, yes, but it is only 1 part of his game.

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04-13-2013, 09:17 AM
  #113
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if we dont sign bozak, will that lead to kessel not signing here ?
great friends, kessels only friend, they may follow each other to the same team

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04-13-2013, 09:20 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Bozak isn't a 1st line center either. If he wants 5M, he can go and get that somewhere else.

I think 3.5-4M is perfect. We need to stop overpaying 2nd rate talent. I don't like Weiss much either, but at 5M I'd rather have him than Bozak.

Also..Weiss is not fragile, it's been a long time since he was last injured and out for a long time. He has played over 70+ games every year since 06-07.
So you claim you're overpaying for Bozak but would take Weiss at 5M? I dont even know what to say to that.

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04-13-2013, 09:23 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Rielly4 View Post
Bozaks a really underrated playmaker, hes a quick accurate smart passer. He goes over to Kessel as a day job, gets Kessel the puck a ton. Leave him their at 4 mil.
He can make the good passes but he actually doesn't do it enough. He holds on too long, back to a D, or he just skates around until he loses the puck. That's why he had under 50 pts last season with ppg line mates. As of today he is 202nd in SOG by a forward. He has a great shooting percentage but not many goals and it isn't because he is pass first guy. He hangs on too long and can't get into scoring position. He doesn't think fast enough. Compare him to Kadri who creates and uses his wingers all the time.

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04-13-2013, 09:55 AM
  #116
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In an ideal World perhaps seeing both Bozak and Grabovski move on would be the solution.

Grabovski because he makes too much money for what he brings and Bozak because he might want too much money for where he is placed on the depth chart at center.

At best Leafs only afford to keep 1 or the other.

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04-13-2013, 10:00 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
This is the biggest fallacy on this board, Bozak is not just a face-off specialist. It's a valuable talent to have, yes, but it is only 1 part of his game.
Exactly. Glad out coaching staff sees it. Not sure what some people are actually watching. With a healthy Lupul, and if Kadri is for real Leafs have a top notch top 6 for sure.

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04-13-2013, 10:09 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Rielly4 View Post
Its getting annoying how a few huge contracts are now making great players worth 8 mil when they used to be worth 6 and only league leaders like Ovi and Crosby were worth 8. Now average 2nd liners are getting 5 yet the cap is going down... Ridiculous.
yes the cap is going down, but the max contract you could pay someone i believe is 20 percent of your cap. In my mind crosby and malkin are worth $12M per year, they are max players in my mind.

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04-13-2013, 10:11 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Exactly. Glad out coaching staff sees it. Not sure what some people are actually watching. With a healthy Lupul, and if Kadri is for real Leafs have a top notch top 6 for sure.
the problem i have with bozak is that he doesnt have the offensive skill of a top line player. Both lupul and kessel were a point per game player last year and bozak ends up with 50pts. The centreman on that line should have had 65-75pts

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04-13-2013, 10:21 AM
  #120
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Can we afford to keep Bozak at say, $4.0-4.5 million and resign Kadri to a Subban-type deal?

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04-13-2013, 10:23 AM
  #121
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Leafs at this point do not have a center in the system that satisfies their pressing need.

I'd say they have bottom 3 lines covered, but unless they can steal one from free agency (don't see where), draft one (year's away) they should be pulling out all the stops in a trade.

If Phaneuf is the answer for their defense, then even Rielly should be available for a true top 10 center. I don't base top 10 on points alone, so I'm not buying that Kadri is that player.

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04-13-2013, 10:31 AM
  #122
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He can make the good passes but he actually doesn't do it enough. He holds on too long, back to a D, or he just skates around until he loses the puck. That's why he had under 50 pts last season with ppg line mates. As of today he is 202nd in SOG by a forward. He has a great shooting percentage but not many goals and it isn't because he is pass first guy. He hangs on too long and can't get into scoring position. He doesn't think fast enough. Compare him to Kadri who creates and uses his wingers all the time.
Jordan Staal hasn't produced over 50pts with not just Malkin, but also Sidney Crosby. You know generational talent that could be put in the same category as Wayne Gretzky.

It's ridiculous to brand a player as a top six player, because he doesn't score 900pts. Most top-six forwards do not score that many points. In addition, Bozak by production would be top 85 amongst the forwards. He's not doing a bad job at all. Besides Cooke, Dupuis, Guerin and others weren't able to produce over 50pts with Crosby and Malkin either.

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04-13-2013, 11:04 AM
  #123
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Leafs at this point do not have a center in the system that satisfies their pressing need.

I'd say they have bottom 3 lines covered, but unless they can steal one from free agency (don't see where), draft one (year's away) they should be pulling out all the stops in a trade.

If Phaneuf is the answer for their defense, then even Rielly should be available for a true top 10 center. I don't base top 10 on points alone, so I'm not buying that Kadri is that player.
A Jake Gardiner for Ryan O'Rielly type trade would serve just such a purpose, of finding a young centre to groom and build upon.

Then trading Grabovski to say the Desert Dogs in return for Keith Yandle would then replace Gardiner as would Morgan Rielly hopefully in the future.

Just possible example(s) of multiple trades positioning the team with a Top 6 center and a Top 4 defender and addressing team needs.

Leaving Kadri and O'Rielly as Leaf top 6 centers and grooming Joey C internally for that #3 spot.

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04-13-2013, 12:05 PM
  #124
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A Jake Gardiner for Ryan O'Rielly type trade would serve just such a purpose, of finding a young centre to groom and build upon.

Then trading Grabovski to say the Desert Dogs in return for Keith Yandle would then replace Gardiner as would Morgan Rielly hopefully in the future.

Just possible example(s) of multiple trades positioning the team with a Top 6 center and a Top 4 defender and addressing team needs.

Leaving Kadri and O'Rielly as Leaf top 6 centers and grooming Joey C internally for that #3 spot.
We can of course scratch O'Reilly because he can't be traded for a year.

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04-13-2013, 12:35 PM
  #125
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I really don't understand why the Bozak conversation has him making $5 million. He plays on the first line, but that's not exactly his role on the team.

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