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Bud Holloway

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Old
04-12-2013, 07:43 AM
  #51
SurMartin
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The "deal" here is just that Holloway was monarchs top player for 2 seasons but didn't get a single call-up with the Kings, so he chose to continue his development in the SEL which resulted in:

*Second most points ever by a SEL-player (Håkan Loob holds the record from back in 1983)
*Most points ever in the SEL-playoffs history
*SEL assist record
*SEL MVP (voted by the players)

...and now he will be an UFA this summer. Simple as that.

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04-12-2013, 08:26 AM
  #52
Frolov 6'3
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Bud should be a King because he's good not because Lombardi is disappointed and that he didnt follow 'the code'.

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04-12-2013, 10:42 AM
  #53
kingsfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
You just can't be that clueless. Near the top of the list is simply ludicrous. You're either in the show or your not. Since Holloway now holds all the cards its obvious who screwed this up.
You can't be that vague. Please, I dare you, explain to me who was ahead of Holloway for a recall in all likelihood if Holloway had returned instead of going to Sweden? He led the Monarchs in scoring that season, so if he's not the top/first recall, he's likely in the top 2 or 3. Who are they going to call up ahead of him? Maybe Dwight King, but the point is Holloway had every bit as much chance at a recall as anyone, and likely moreso than most. And all of this excludes the fact that he had a legit chance to make the team at training camp if he had stayed, since after he left the Kings were left to sign guys like Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter to fill voids.

You've said or shown nothing to indicate Holloway didn't have a legit chance to be either a King for last season, or at least a strong recall possibility, so if you want to blindly follow your opinion, go ahead.

As someone else said, DL isn't going to break presidence and just hand over a one-way deal to Bud Holloway, and he's not going to recall him either just because he's been in the AHL for three years (actually two and a half).

Name any GM who gives out one-way contracts to 22-year-olds who have never played an NHL game? You can't.

Since you can't, why is it DL has erred by not doing something that no other GM does?

Wouldn't that indicate that if you must point fingers in this case (which I have said all along that it is no ones fault, but for some reason you insist on saying otherwise), that finger should be pointed at Holloway for demanding something that no GM would grant?

If DL does grant Holloway a one-way deal, doesn't that open the presidence that he must now give one-way deals to all other prospects who are equal to or greater than Holloway, who are in the same situation?

If he did that, Manchester would be full of one-way contracts, is that a good way to run a club to you? If so, name any other team in NHL history that has a farm team with several 22-year-olds on one-way deals, as if it is a good model for business, than other teams would have surely done this by now.

Open your eyes. The Kings did what they had to do, Holloway did what he had to do. It's no ones fault, quit trying to place blame where there is none.

And you can say Holloway owns all the cards if he wants (which he doesn't, outside of the elite of the elite, no player holds all the cards), but last I checked DL holds a cup ring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
College UFA's are required to sign ELC's, so those would automatically be two-way.

It's not common at all, Jets did this past off-season with D Paul Postma (well 4 career games before hand), but your right it's not that common.
Thanks for clarrifying Holden. I thought college UFA's had to do an ELC too, but wasn't sure and was just to lazy to go digging

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Originally Posted by SurMartin View Post
The "deal" here is just that Holloway was monarchs top player for 2 seasons but didn't get a single call-up with the Kings.
Who says he was the best player? He was their top scorer, doesn't make him their top player. In fact, in 2010-2011, I'd say Voynov was their top player. And even as their top scorer, Moller actually had a better points per game pace both seasons than Holloway.

And imagine that, Voynov also had been in the minors for three years (and all of that at the AHL level too, not having some time in the ECHL like Holloway) without a recall, yet he managed to stay with it in the minors, get sent back down again to start the following season, yet came up to the pro team when there was an injury (just like Bud would have in all likelihood) and made it out to be a very good NHLer so far.

It's like a miracle that Voynov turned out the way he did in the face of such mismanagement by the Kings

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04-12-2013, 10:45 AM
  #54
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Name any GM who gives out one-way contracts to 22-year-olds who have never played an NHL game? You can't.
Paul Holmgren with Matt Read ??

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04-12-2013, 10:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lenain22 View Post
Paul Holmgren with Matt Read ??
24 years old when he signed that deal (almost 25 actually).

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04-12-2013, 11:03 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
What's the big deal here anyway? I feel like we lose a 7th rounder or something.

If I'm DL I don't sweat Holloway. DL should only reward prospects who follow the regimen, a proven one, than make an exception for such a low prospect. If you do that for a 10th best prospect, how do you tell a top prospect like Voynov or Bernier to stay patient? Better to keep doing what you say, see the prospects develop according to plan, and lose a potential fourth liner. We already have Richardson as the 13th player. If Richie played a whole season in the SEL as a top liner, he'd probably lead the league too.

At least I know Richie can check too and play solid Sutter-style, NHL minutes. With Holloway all I know is he can play in the SEL. He's no Tanner Pearson.
you mean like playing half a season in the ECHL and then another 2 seasons in the AHL as the monarchs best player (if not best, top 2)? Pretty sure he followed the regimen. He just was not tossed ONE bone the ENTIRE time.

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04-12-2013, 11:04 AM
  #57
Felix Unger
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[QUOTE=kingsfan;63812237
Name any GM who gives out one-way contracts to 22-year-olds who have never played an NHL game? You can't.[/QUOTE]

Well, we all know who would.


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Old
04-12-2013, 11:13 AM
  #58
HookKing
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
You can't be that vague. ...
Vague? Your just not getting this...pro sports is a business -- a player is not going to stick around for some vague opportunity in the future if they don't have to or there is no indication of a real future. The contract situation probably doesn't happen if Holloway gets a sip. Instead, he had to watch King get a call up and fail miserably.

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Old
04-12-2013, 11:22 AM
  #59
kingsfan
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Originally Posted by KapG View Post
you mean like playing half a season in the ECHL and then another 2 seasons in the AHL as the monarchs best player (if not best, top 2)? Pretty sure he followed the regimen. He just was not tossed ONE bone the ENTIRE time.
You mean just like Voynov?

Lets not make it out like Holloway was passed over repeatedly for lesser players or that DL had a grudge against him. The Kings have done the exact same with others, including a fourth overall pick in Hickey. If they don't have a place for you, you aren't getting a token recall just because. That's the way it should be.

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04-12-2013, 11:32 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
Vague? Your just not getting this...pro sports is a business -- a player is not going to stick around for some vague opportunity in the future if they don't have to or there is no indication of a real future. The contract situation probably doesn't happen if Holloway gets a sip. Instead, he had to watch King get a call up and fail miserably.
LMAO.

I post several questions for you, many business related, and you ignore every one of them. Wonder why? Perhaps because you can't answer them in a favorable manner towards Bud Holloway?

You are just flat out biased and want to blame DL 100% when it's just not the case. Neither side is to fault, both sides did what they felt was the best for their respective situations. It's funny how you can except that for Holloway, but throw DL under the bus for the same thing.

All the best to Holloway and I hope he does become a huge scorer in the NHL. I honestly do. But for this argument, I'm done unless you actually try to answer some of the questions I pose instead of just repeating the same mantra with your head buried in the sand.

Btw, points per game pace that year, King and Holloway were almost exactly even (Holloway had a .782 PPG and King had a .722 PPG, which over an 82 game season would equated to a five point edge for Holloway) and the recall was done in mid-November, so very early into the season. And King's a lot bigger than Holloway and, IIRC, Bud got off to a slow start that season, so lets not make it out to be like Bud was passed over for Ray Kaunisto here.

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04-12-2013, 11:46 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
...

Btw, points per game pace that year, King and Holloway were almost exactly even (Holloway had a .782 PPG and King had a .722 PPG, which over an 82 game season would equated to a five point edge for Holloway) and the recall was done in mid-November, so very early into the season. And King's a lot bigger than Holloway ...

Congrats -- you just walked right into it. Why in the world would Holloway think he was going to get an opportunity with Parse and now King in front of him?

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04-12-2013, 02:23 PM
  #62
kingsfan
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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
Congrats -- you just walked right into it. Why in the world would Holloway think he was going to get an opportunity with Parse and now King in front of him?
How you translate a 6 game recall for King, in which you yourself said King 'failed miserably', into him having no hope is beyond me. And this doesn't even acknowledge the fact that I pointed out both Trent Hunter and Ethan Moreau took roster spots on the team, two players who were signed AFTER Holloway bolted. Both of those spots were unfilled and open to won in camp and Holloway elected to take off for Europe.

But yeah, ignore that point, which I made earlier in this thread already, and point to a player who has a long list of injury issues (and don't injuries prompt recalls??? ) and a guy who you yourself said did 'miserably' at the NHL level as the reason why Holloway can't get a recall.

If Holloway is behind a player you yourself said did 'miserably', then he must not have been very damn good when he left for Europe then, huh? And if not, then DL must have made the right choice in not giving him a one-way ticket then, huh?

What did I walk into again? You claiming Holloway sucks it seems is all I found here, which isn't the case. Holloway is a good player, and I hope he does great down the line. But it's just looking more and more like the right decision was made here, by both parties.

Anyways, go ahead and respond again, ignoring any questions I have asked throughout this thread in favor of your one-sided argument. It's clearly working for you.

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04-12-2013, 05:25 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
How you translate a 6 game recall for King, in which you yourself said King 'failed miserably', into him having no hope is beyond me. And this doesn't even acknowledge the fact that I pointed out both Trent Hunter and Ethan Moreau took roster spots on the team, two players who were signed AFTER Holloway bolted. Both of those spots were unfilled and open to won in camp and Holloway elected to take off for Europe.

But yeah, ignore that point, which I made earlier in this thread already, and point to a player who has a long list of injury issues (and don't injuries prompt recalls??? ) and a guy who you yourself said did 'miserably' at the NHL level as the reason why Holloway can't get a recall.

If Holloway is behind a player you yourself said did 'miserably', then he must not have been very damn good when he left for Europe then, huh? And if not, then DL must have made the right choice in not giving him a one-way ticket then, huh?

What did I walk into again? You claiming Holloway sucks it seems is all I found here, which isn't the case. Holloway is a good player, and I hope he does great down the line. But it's just looking more and more like the right decision was made here, by both parties.

Anyways, go ahead and respond again, ignoring any questions I have asked throughout this thread in favor of your one-sided argument. It's clearly working for you.
Your posts are just brutally tiring to follow...

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04-12-2013, 05:31 PM
  #64
kingsfan
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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
Your posts are just brutally tiring to follow...
I'd reply in kind, but they are so short and lacking anything even remotely close to representing well supported opinons that I can read them in about 2 seconds. You may continue your misguided anger towards DL in peace, young padiwan.

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04-12-2013, 09:39 PM
  #65
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I don't get why some Kings fans bring up that DL has a cup ring. How is that relevant at all? A cup ring doesn't exclude someone from all criticism, and DL deserves plenty here. He's lost a pretty decent asset for no apparent reason. Burke won a cup in 2007, but it doesn't excuse him from pissing away PA Parenteau, Curtis Glencross and Zenon Konopka for pretty much nothing(although Hartigan and Motzko did contribute a wee bit to that cup run).

And for those saying Bud was next in line, no he wasn't. For fact, we know King, Moller, Loktionov and Zeiler were ahead of him, and guys like Nolan, Cliche, Clune might've been as well, we don't know. Being the leading scorer and arguable best player, and being maybe the 5th in line for a call-up, maybe further back, is probably quite frustrating. Not hard to see why he left, it was clear he had no future with the Kings, and rather than keep wasting time there, he proved himself to the other 29 teams who might want to give him a shot.

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04-12-2013, 09:56 PM
  #66
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if he was a flame he'd not only get a 1 way contract but he would aslo get a full NMC

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04-12-2013, 11:32 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I don't get why some Kings fans bring up that DL has a cup ring. How is that relevant at all? A cup ring doesn't exclude someone from all criticism, and DL deserves plenty here. He's lost a pretty decent asset for no apparent reason. Burke won a cup in 2007, but it doesn't excuse him from pissing away PA Parenteau, Curtis Glencross and Zenon Konopka for pretty much nothing(although Hartigan and Motzko did contribute a wee bit to that cup run).

And for those saying Bud was next in line, no he wasn't. For fact, we know King, Moller, Loktionov and Zeiler were ahead of him, and guys like Nolan, Cliche, Clune might've been as well, we don't know. Being the leading scorer and arguable best player, and being maybe the 5th in line for a call-up, maybe further back, is probably quite frustrating. Not hard to see why he left, it was clear he had no future with the Kings, and rather than keep wasting time there, he proved himself to the other 29 teams who might want to give him a shot.
I'm not excusing DL for anything do to his cup ring. I'm saying that his moves/decisions that year led to a Stanley Cup, so how people are saying he made the wrong move is beyond me. Was he perfect? No, but his moves that season led to a cup, so to throw him under a bus for not giving in to Bud Holloway, which doing so could have impacted on the pro roster in all likelihood that season, is not warranted.

As for the bolded, please show me how it is a FACT those guys were ahead of Holloway at the time he left to go to Europe. I'd really love to know how it is a fact Moller was ahead of him considering Moller was on his way to Sweden before Holloway was.

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04-13-2013, 12:05 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
And for those saying Bud was next in line, no he wasn't. For fact, we know King, Moller, Loktionov and Zeiler were ahead of him, and guys like Nolan, Cliche, Clune might've been as well, we don't know.
We do know, actually. The only one on that group ahead of him was Loktionov.

Moller was already set to go overseas. As for those other guys, they don't fill the role. Anyone who knows anything about how the Kings operate know that they bring up appropriate players for the slot they are replacing. If a bottom 6 guy needs replacing, they bring up guys like King, Nolan, etc. If a top 6 guy needs replacing, they bring up a scoring type. That's how DL rolls and he rarely deviates from it. Bud certainly could have outplayed Lokti and been brought up last year

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04-13-2013, 12:42 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I'm not excusing DL for anything do to his cup ring. I'm saying that his moves/decisions that year led to a Stanley Cup, so how people are saying he made the wrong move is beyond me. Was he perfect? No, but his moves that season led to a cup, so to throw him under a bus for not giving in to Bud Holloway, which doing so could have impacted on the pro roster in all likelihood that season, is not warranted.

As for the bolded, please show me how it is a FACT those guys were ahead of Holloway at the time he left to go to Europe. I'd really love to know how it is a fact Moller was ahead of him considering Moller was on his way to Sweden before Holloway was.
The bolded are all the guys that got call-ups before Bud did. Why would he think he'd be ahead of them on the call-up list when they were getting chances and he wasn't. Like I said, aside from perhaps Moller who bolted, those guys were ahead of him, and there might've been others.

And one way it wouldn't impact the pro team would've been to trade him. That's been an option since well before he left and DL didn't act on it. That's poor asset management, you can definitely fault the GM for unnecessarily losing an asset over nothing. For the 2011-2012 season, the rest worked out anyway, but on this particular issue, he screwed up. You could also argue he screwed up by pissing off a talented player in his organization by refusing to call him up, which I'd say is fairly legitimate. But either way, the fact is he's about to lose the rights to the SEL leading scorer for nothing, and it easily could've been avoided.

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04-13-2013, 12:46 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
We do know, actually. The only one on that group ahead of him was Loktionov.

Moller was already set to go overseas. As for those other guys, they don't fill the role. Anyone who knows anything about how the Kings operate know that they bring up appropriate players for the slot they are replacing. If a bottom 6 guy needs replacing, they bring up guys like King, Nolan, etc. If a top 6 guy needs replacing, they bring up a scoring type. That's how DL rolls and he rarely deviates from it. Bud certainly could have outplayed Lokti and been brought up last year
In 2011 they called up Dwight King to play on the top line. Granted, King scored at a similar rate to Holloway that year, but still, he was their AHL team's leading scorer the two seasons prior, and they gave King 6 games and him none. Because he's a little bigger(and it's not like Holloway's undersized). IMO he has every right to not believe DL when he says he was next in line.

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04-13-2013, 12:57 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
We do know, actually. The only one on that group ahead of him was Loktionov.

Moller was already set to go overseas. As for those other guys, they don't fill the role. Anyone who knows anything about how the Kings operate know that they bring up appropriate players for the slot they are replacing. If a bottom 6 guy needs replacing, they bring up guys like King, Nolan, etc. If a top 6 guy needs replacing, they bring up a scoring type. That's how DL rolls and he rarely deviates from it. Bud certainly could have outplayed Lokti and been brought up last year
And anyone who actually observed how the Kings operate would know that King and Nolan were brought up to play on the second line .

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04-13-2013, 08:59 AM
  #72
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You mean just like Voynov?

Lets not make it out like Holloway was passed over repeatedly for lesser players or that DL had a grudge against him. The Kings have done the exact same with others, including a fourth overall pick in Hickey. If they don't have a place for you, you aren't getting a token recall just because. That's the way it should be.
pretty sure the voynov example has been covered by others. something about him not having the oppurtunity to leave because of an NHL contract.

As for Holloway getting a token recall just because. Wtf? Who is saying he deserved one just because? He deserves one because he was essentially the monarchs top player the two years prior to bouncing over to the SEL, where he established himself as one of the best players in that league. Currently setting the all time assists record and the all time points record for a foreign born player.

seems like it worked for him too so far. The guy is likely to field tons of offers this summer and LA is not going to get a single thing for him. Poor asset management.

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04-13-2013, 11:43 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
The bolded are all the guys that got call-ups before Bud did. Why would he think he'd be ahead of them on the call-up list when they were getting chances and he wasn't. Like I said, aside from perhaps Moller who bolted, those guys were ahead of him, and there might've been others.

And one way it wouldn't impact the pro team would've been to trade him. That's been an option since well before he left and DL didn't act on it. That's poor asset management, you can definitely fault the GM for unnecessarily losing an asset over nothing. For the 2011-2012 season, the rest worked out anyway, but on this particular issue, he screwed up. You could also argue he screwed up by pissing off a talented player in his organization by refusing to call him up, which I'd say is fairly legitimate. But either way, the fact is he's about to lose the rights to the SEL leading scorer for nothing, and it easily could've been avoided.
So because they got a recall before Bud in the past, they are therefore automatically ahead of Bud at the point he left? What team operates like that? Past success guarantees you nothing in the future.

As for trading him, DL didn't see a point in trading him when he was expecting Bud to come back to camp in the fall. It wasn't until Bud bolted out of the blue that the idea of trading him was an option and at that point what would anyone give him? Maybe a 7th? For a 7th or whatever, I'd rather just hold onto him and have exclusive negotiating rights and see if soemthing can be worked out.

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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
And anyone who actually observed how the Kings operate would know that King and Nolan were brought up to play on the second line .
LMAO. King was on the top line for his 'miserable' six game recall in 2010-2011, but when both he and Nolan were recalled together in 2011-2012, they weren't recalled for a top 6 role. King averaged 14:38 in ice time that season and was 8th in average ice time per game amoungst forwards. Nolan averaged just 9:20 a game which was 18th amoungst forwards for the Kings. The only Kings forward who got less ice time than Nolan was Westgarth. They weren't recalled to play in the top two lines.

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Originally Posted by KapG View Post
pretty sure the voynov example has been covered by others. something about him not having the oppurtunity to leave because of an NHL contract.

As for Holloway getting a token recall just because. Wtf? Who is saying he deserved one just because? He deserves one because he was essentially the monarchs top player the two years prior to bouncing over to the SEL, where he established himself as one of the best players in that league. Currently setting the all time assists record and the all time points record for a foreign born player.

seems like it worked for him too so far. The guy is likely to field tons of offers this summer and LA is not going to get a single thing for him. Poor asset management.
What he has done currently makes no difference on him getting a recall from the Kings back in 2010-2011, so for the purpose of a recall discussion who cares about his scoring records now.

Bottom line was Bud didn't deserve a recall, just like Voynov didn't deserve a recall, just like Hickey didn't deserve a recall. Bud however elected to leave, when in all likelihood he'd have been a prime candidate to get a recall if he had stayed, not to mention the fact the Kings had two forward spots open for sure going into camp which no one in this thread seems to want to remember. And those two spots were filled by players brought in after Holloway left (Moreau and Hunter), so Holloway had a very legit chance to make the team right out of camp, yet he chose to leave.

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04-13-2013, 12:01 PM
  #74
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The best way to put it nicely is that Bud has been completely screwed over by the Kings organization. He needs to demand a trade and go to an organization that will play him in the NHL. He's an NHL player.

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04-13-2013, 12:04 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
So because they got a recall before Bud in the past, they are therefore automatically ahead of Bud at the point he left? What team operates like that? Past success guarantees you nothing in the future.

As for trading him, DL didn't see a point in trading him when he was expecting Bud to come back to camp in the fall. It wasn't until Bud bolted out of the blue that the idea of trading him was an option and at that point what would anyone give him? Maybe a 7th? For a 7th or whatever, I'd rather just hold onto him and have exclusive negotiating rights and see if soemthing can be worked out.



LMAO. King was on the top line for his 'miserable' six game recall in 2010-2011, but when both he and Nolan were recalled together in 2011-2012, they weren't recalled for a top 6 role. King averaged 14:38 in ice time that season and was 8th in average ice time per game amoungst forwards. Nolan averaged just 9:20 a game which was 18th amoungst forwards for the Kings. The only Kings forward who got less ice time than Nolan was Westgarth. They weren't recalled to play in the top two lines.



What he has done currently makes no difference on him getting a recall from the Kings back in 2010-2011, so for the purpose of a recall discussion who cares about his scoring records now.

Bottom line was Bud didn't deserve a recall, just like Voynov didn't deserve a recall, just like Hickey didn't deserve a recall. Bud however elected to leave, when in all likelihood he'd have been a prime candidate to get a recall if he had stayed, not to mention the fact the Kings had two forward spots open for sure going into camp which no one in this thread seems to want to remember. And those two spots were filled by players brought in after Holloway left (Moreau and Hunter), so Holloway had a very legit chance to make the team right out of camp, yet he chose to leave.
What more could Bud have done in the AHL regular season and playoffs for two seasons running that would have made him deserving of a call up? Did he have to lead the league in scoring?

You keep saying in all likelihood he would have been the prime candidate for a call up if he had stayed. He should have been the prime candidate for a call up while he was playing for the monarchs yet he never was. Once again, not sure what else he had to do to be deserving of one....

We will see what happens this offseason, but I bet his decision is going to pay off for him. I think we are going to see a bunch of teams interested in signing him after the two seasons he has just had in the SEL. The first of which had him setting the SEL playoff scoring record and the second of which had him setting the all time points record for a foreign player as well as setting the SEL regular season all time assists record.

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