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Burns, future forward for life?

View Poll Results: Will burns spend more time on the ice as a forward or as a defenseman next season?
More time on the ice as a forward 30 41.10%
More time on the ice as a defenseman 43 58.90%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-13-2013, 03:56 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
As of tonight: St. Louis, Kunitz, Kane, Ovechkin, Hall, Kessel. That's six. Not "a ton." Six. Out of 30 teams with about 8 wingers on each team. Burns can't keep this up.
Wasn't implying that Burns will keep it up or that we should get one of those wingers. I was just saying that there are usually a couple of PPG wingers every season, it isn't something super rare like hockeyball seemed to be implying.

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04-13-2013, 09:15 AM
  #27
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Neither, put him at rover.

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04-13-2013, 09:33 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
There are a ton of PPG+ wingers this season. Kunitz, Ovechkin, Kane, Hall, Kessel. Players like St. Louis, Patrick Kane, and Ovechkin were PPG+ in previous seasons as well.
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
As of tonight: St. Louis, Kunitz, Kane, Ovechkin, Hall, Kessel. That's six. Not "a ton." Six. Out of 30 teams with about 8 wingers on each team. Burns can't keep this up.
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Wasn't implying that Burns will keep it up or that we should get one of those wingers. I was just saying that there are usually a couple of PPG wingers every season, it isn't something super rare like hockeyball seemed to be implying.
Those are not PPG wingers, those are PPG wingers this season. Slightly larger sample size than Burns, but same point. I'm saying if Burns keep it up for several seasons at this pace it would make him the best winger in the game. That's pretty unlikely.

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04-13-2013, 10:41 AM
  #29
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I don't know about Burns playing F for life, but I still have this frustrating feeling that the Sharks are not icing the best PP units possible. Even if Burns goes back to D, he seems such a beast up front that you should (at least) consider playing him at F on the PP, right now and going forward.

And I don't get why we still play Pavs on the point for PP unit 1. Seems like we have enough offensive dmen to let Pavs center the second unit.

Marleau-Thornton-Burns
Boyle-Braun

Havlat-Pavs-Couture
Demers-Irwin

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. Don't get why our PP units don't look something (doesn't have to be exact of course) like this.

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04-13-2013, 11:30 AM
  #30
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Byfuglien 2.0 IMO!

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04-13-2013, 11:38 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Those are not PPG wingers, those are PPG wingers this season. Slightly larger sample size than Burns, but same point. I'm saying if Burns keep it up for several seasons at this pace it would make him the best winger in the game. That's pretty unlikely.
this year there is 3 point per game left wingers. (ovechkin, kunitz, hall)
last year there was 1. (neal)
year before that there was 3 (sedin, ovechkin, zetterberg)
year before that was 5 (sedin, ovechkin, marleau, heatley, parise)
year before that there was 5 (sedin, ovechkin, parise, nash, elias)
year before that there was 3 (ovechkin, heatley, zetterberg)
year before that there was 7 (ovechkin, heatley, vanek, sedin, whitney, brunette, tanguay)
year before that there was 9 (ovechkin, heatley, marleau, zetterberg, mcdonald, kariya, gagne, tanguay, stillman)

this year there is 3 point per game right wingers (st louis, kane, kessel)
year before that there was 3 (giroux, kovalchuk, kessel)
year before that there was 5 (st louis, kane, perry, iginla, selanne)
year before that there was 6 (st louis, kane, gaborik, kovalchuk, semin, alfredsson)
year before that there was 3 (kovalchuk, iginla, semin)
year before that there was 6 (iginla, alfredsson, kovalchuk, kovalev, gaborik, st louis)
year before that there was 7 (iginla, st louis, hossa, jagr, briere, selanne, alfredsson)
year before that there was 7 (jagr, alfredsson, kovalchuk, cheechoo, hossa, selanne, gionta)

there is a lot of players in those years that have multiple point per game seasons as a winger. unless you are saying that burns is going to be more like a cheechoo, brunette, briere, perry then you don't have a point. there has been lots of point per game wingers just in the past 8 years.

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04-13-2013, 11:51 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
He doesn't. He said he feels more comfortable playing defense.

No I don't have a link. And I have no idea where I saw / heard that stated. You're just gonna have to trust me. I'm a good guy, so that shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't lie to you. Honest.
I heard something similar when he first made the switch.

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Old
04-13-2013, 12:01 PM
  #33
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A top D is way better than at forward.

The reason he's playing forward is that the team needs more depth at that position, he can play it so there he is. Once we get depth up front he needs to be back at D.

For those that have seen my postings on this, i contend that we are 2 top 9 forwards away from being a cup contender with the rest of the guys.

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04-13-2013, 12:59 PM
  #34
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weve had this discussion several times.

its an option. a good option. but as with all things in life IT DEPENDS.

hes had two seasons shooting at almost 10%...hard to see that being the trend...hes probably closer to 3.5-5. so id expect him season by season to be at least 8 goals or more, and he probably wont break 50 points. i say that because of the emphasis on our defense, and offense trending down for us.

his defensive game lends more to ending in the negative for +\- which i know is a hard stat to go by. his underlying numbers were respectable last season, though he did have quite a high percentage of offensive zone starts. i went back through his minny seasons and they werent great. someone else would need to look at his numbers and analyze them better.

the free agency class next year is garbageee. i hope DW went on on jussi jokinen but i wonder if hes waiting to sort out his cap before anything else.

i also dont like that JT is receiving sheltered minutes and not really dominating, is he injured? is he declining? i think JT as a trade option should be looked at after the season (based on results).

yes he may hit his normal point totals, but points taken out of context can be misleading. so i think the coaching staff and the front office people should analyze his overall play and effect on the team next year.

having a very highly skilled two way defensemen, albeit leaning more toward the offensive side honestly, will be great. he is undisciplined in his own zone and hopefully LR sorts it out.

if a return can be had for thornton that sets us up for success, maybe we go for it.

can couture step up to 1C with a very good goal scorer next to him? marleau? who knows..but it needs to be looked at because with one trade you can reshape the entire franchise.

so in the end, questions need answering before you can say burns at D is the right move. we dont know what iteration of the sharks will be suiting up next season, and i think you make a decision at camp.

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04-13-2013, 03:11 PM
  #35
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Byfuglien 2.0 IMO!
Ewww, no.

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04-13-2013, 04:50 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Those are not PPG wingers, those are PPG wingers this season. Slightly larger sample size than Burns, but same point. I'm saying if Burns keep it up for several seasons at this pace it would make him the best winger in the game. That's pretty unlikely.
Barrie's post pretty much sums up what I was going to say.
My post had nothing to do with Burns. I was just correcting you when you said " Seriously, a PPG+ winger basically does not exist at the moment." There are wingers who were PPG+ for multiple seasons.

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04-13-2013, 04:55 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Barrie's post pretty much sums up what I was going to say.
My post had nothing to do with Burns. I was just correcting you when you said " Seriously, a PPG+ winger basically does not exist at the moment." There are wingers who were PPG+ for multiple seasons.
Let me speak very very slowly so you guys get it this time.

Brent Burns likeyhood of being a PPG winger over the long term is incredibly low. Few if any players do so over multiple years.

Good lord. How hard is that.

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04-13-2013, 05:07 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Let me speak very very slowly so you guys get it this time.

Brent Burns likeyhood of being a PPG winger over the long term is incredibly low. Few if any players do so over multiple years.

Good lord. How hard is that.
read the post 3 posts or so up. why is burns so much different then any of the wingers named to produce at a pace? he has a great shot, he has a big body, he can skate for a big boy, he can protect the puck pretty good. i just don't know what makes his production such a impossible thing to do?

iginla has done it 3 or 4 times in 8 years, ovechkin has done it 4 or 5 times in 8 years. alfredsson has done it 3 times in 8 years, parise has done it 2 times in 8 years, semin has done it 2 times in 8 years, heatley has done it 3 times in 8 years, marleau has done it 2 times in 8 years, st louis has done it 3 or 4 times in 8 years, sedin has done it 3 times in 8 years, jagr has done it 2 times in 8 years, kovalchuk has done it 3 times in 8 years, selanne has done it multiple years, hossa has done it multiple years.

thats a lot of players that has done it multiple years in the nhl.

i think you just don't know how to look at stats that good, because its right in front of you, that it happens a lot more then you want to think it does.

the point per games for wingers happens just about as much as it does for centers. actually looking back over the numbers it actually happens a lot more then centers.

there are 8 centers this year at point per game or better.
3 the year before
3 the year before that
7 the year before that
11 the year before that
12 the year before that
11 before that
11 before that


Last edited by Barrie22: 04-13-2013 at 05:16 PM. Reason: looking back at numbers
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Old
04-13-2013, 05:39 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Paka Ono View Post
Byfuglien 2.0 IMO!
Playoff Byfuglien? Hell yes.

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04-13-2013, 06:15 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Let me speak very very slowly so you guys get it this time.

Brent Burns likeyhood of being a PPG winger over the long term is incredibly low. Few if any players do so over multiple years.

Good lord. How hard is that.
Read my post again. I said my point had nothing to do with Burns. I was simply correcting your statement of "a PPG winger does not exist." That is simply incorrect. There is no other subtle meaning. You're just wrong. If you didn't mean it like that, then you shouldn't have said it like that.
Good lord, how hard is that?

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04-13-2013, 06:18 PM
  #41
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i mean its easy to say. If burns isnt ppg over multiple seasons hes worth more on D. but i dont think its as cut and dry as that. I just hope they look at it from multiple angles and pick the one that helps the team long term, and there are quite a few variables that factor into that.

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04-13-2013, 06:51 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
read the post 3 posts or so up. why is burns so much different then any of the wingers named to produce at a pace? he has a great shot, he has a big body, he can skate for a big boy, he can protect the puck pretty good. i just don't know what makes his production such a impossible thing to do?

iginla has done it 3 or 4 times in 8 years, ovechkin has done it 4 or 5 times in 8 years. alfredsson has done it 3 times in 8 years, parise has done it 2 times in 8 years, semin has done it 2 times in 8 years, heatley has done it 3 times in 8 years, marleau has done it 2 times in 8 years, st louis has done it 3 or 4 times in 8 years, sedin has done it 3 times in 8 years, jagr has done it 2 times in 8 years, kovalchuk has done it 3 times in 8 years, selanne has done it multiple years, hossa has done it multiple years.

thats a lot of players that has done it multiple years in the nhl.

i think you just don't know how to look at stats that good, because its right in front of you, that it happens a lot more then you want to think it does.

the point per games for wingers happens just about as much as it does for centers. actually looking back over the numbers it actually happens a lot more then centers.

there are 8 centers this year at point per game or better.
3 the year before
3 the year before that
7 the year before that
11 the year before that
12 the year before that
11 before that
11 before that
Good god.

I DIDN'T SAY ITS IMPOSSIBLE I SAID IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

The semantics bs around here gets absolutely maddening. You are betting that Burns will be one of the best, if not the best, winger in the game. I'm saying the odds are pretty damn low that is the case. More than likely he will cool off. I hope he doesn't, but basing your argument off of a what, 14 game sample size?, is pretty freaking silly don't you think?

I really don't know why this is such a tough concept. You are trying to predict the future, I am not. I am simply saying this is an extremely small sample size and you guys are jumping the gun. Out of the what, 120ish wingers in the game the odds that he will be in the top echelon of that are less than the odds that he won't.

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04-13-2013, 07:00 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Good god.

I DIDN'T SAY ITS IMPOSSIBLE I SAID IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

The semantics bs around here gets absolutely maddening. You are betting that Burns will be one of the best, if not the best, winger in the game. I'm saying the odds are pretty damn low that is the case. More than likely he will cool off. I hope he doesn't, but basing your argument off of a what, 14 game sample size?, is pretty freaking silly don't you think?

I really don't know why this is such a tough concept. You are trying to predict the future, I am not. I am simply saying this is an extremely small sample size and you guys are jumping the gun. Out of the what, 120ish wingers in the game the odds that he will be in the top echelon of that are less than the odds that he won't.
No, what you said was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Seriously, a PPG+ winger basically does not exist at the moment. I think that's pretty high expectations.
You used hyperbole to drive your point home and got called on it. No one is saying Burns will be the next Ovechkin, but even if he doesn't maintain a PPG+ stat he could still be one of the best PF's in the league. We don't know yet. But now is not the time to stop the experiment that's for sure.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW, trying to predict the future is about all we do around here.

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Old
04-13-2013, 07:07 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
No, what you said was this:



You used hyperbole to drive your point home and got called on it. No one is saying Burns will be the next Ovechkin, but even if he doesn't maintain a PPG+ stat he could still be one of the best PF's in the league. We don't know yet. But now is not the time to stop the experiment that's for sure.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW, trying to predict the future is about all we do around here.
Thank you. That was literally my only argument. I even made an effort to say my posts had nothing to do with Burns specifically.
There are PPG+ wingers, saying they don't exist is just flat out wrong.

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04-13-2013, 07:24 PM
  #45
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but if a little time spent with game experience and practice and he can put the defensive side together as a forward, with his wheels, skills, i think it might be better overall because of the propensity to play power vs. power for forward lines. it's not like the Sharks have fielded a 3rd line as a shutdown against the other team's first or second line in awhile... ricci, korky, scott thornton?
He's not going to put the defensive side together that you'd want from a #1 caliber d-man playing forward, especially as a winger. Plus, this coaching staff hasn't exactly been using Burns in a power v. power situation. They've actually been protected to some extent and Marleau-Couture-Wingels has been used in a shutdown role. Not your prototypical shutdown line but doing enough to keep the top opposition off of Burns.

My opinion on this has been articulated before. It's going to be a lot harder to find a d-man to be the #1 going forward where Burns is capable of that as opposed to finding a productive winger.

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04-13-2013, 11:42 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
No, what you said was this:



You used hyperbole to drive your point home and got called on it. No one is saying Burns will be the next Ovechkin, but even if he doesn't maintain a PPG+ stat he could still be one of the best PF's in the league. We don't know yet. But now is not the time to stop the experiment that's for sure.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW, trying to predict the future is about all we do around here.
I meant a long term ppg winger, like career. Said that several times too. No hyperbole, you guys are just picking out parts you like to argue stupid ass semantics instead of the point of the conversation. Which by the way I was right about, and still am, regardless of all the dumb wordplay.

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04-13-2013, 11:49 PM
  #47
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in b4 DW convinces himself that Burns is a natural center

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04-13-2013, 11:51 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I meant a long term ppg winger, like career. Said that several times too. No hyperbole, you guys are just picking out parts you like to argue stupid ass semantics instead of the point of the conversation. Which by the way I was right about, and still am, regardless of all the dumb wordplay.
So you just think there is no chance that burns could be a iginla, selanne, st louis, ovechkin, jagr, alfredsson?

I just want to know why you think there is almost zero chance he could be a point per game player like those wingers?

You say you aren't predicting the future but you say that the outcome won't be a point per game player, could be wrong but is that not predicting an outcome you have not seen yet?


Last edited by Barrie22: 04-13-2013 at 11:57 PM.
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04-14-2013, 12:00 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I meant a long term ppg winger, like career. Said that several times too. No hyperbole, you guys are just picking out parts you like to argue stupid ass semantics instead of the point of the conversation. Which by the way I was right about, and still am, regardless of all the dumb wordplay.

Nope, you said. (btw, that's still wrong)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Seriously, a PPG+ winger basically does not exist at the moment. I think that's pretty high expectations.
Which we proved was incorrect. Then you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Those are not PPG wingers, those are PPG wingers this season. Slightly larger sample size than Burns, but same point. I'm saying if Burns keep it up for several seasons at this pace it would make him the best winger in the game. That's pretty unlikely.
Which is still incorrect. Then you went on to

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Brent Burns likeyhood of being a PPG winger over the long term is incredibly low. Few if any players do so over multiple years.
Which again, is still incorrect. Kane has been PPG for a few seasons. Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, St. Louis, Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, etc have all been PPG+ for multiple seasons. But whatever man, keep backtracking.

As for the actual Burns, topic, he certainly has the skill-set to be one of the top wingers in this league. Whether he can maintain it or not, who knows. The argument of "Out of the what, 120ish wingers in the game the odds that he will be in the top echelon of that are less than the odds that he won't" simply isn't a good one because skill-wise, Burns is a lot closer to first line wingers than 3rd/4th line grinders.


Last edited by WTFetus: 04-14-2013 at 12:08 AM.
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04-14-2013, 12:13 AM
  #50
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You know what you guys, you're right. Burns is going to be an amazing winger and there is absolutely zero chance this is just a small sample size. I don't know what I was thinking being slightly hesitant to crown him the greatest Sharks winger of all time after 15 games. Clearly he has proven himself without a shadow of a doubt and will maintain this pace without fail for the rest of his career.

Do me a favor, since you clearly are psychic and know exactly what I was thinking, please, explain the point I was making and then explain how I'm wrong. I don't think you can because you are too freaking busy picking apart word usage.

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