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Bud Holloway

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Old
04-13-2013, 12:18 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by KapG View Post
What more could Bud have done in the AHL regular season and playoffs for two seasons running that would have made him deserving of a call up? Did he have to lead the league in scoring?
97% of the Kings fans try to convince themselves that Bud didnt deserve a call up. Yet we have seen scrubs like Clune, Segal, Cliché get a call before him.

Holloway is NHL player and Dean messed up the situation.

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04-13-2013, 12:34 PM
  #77
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So because they got a recall before Bud in the past, they are therefore automatically ahead of Bud at the point he left? What team operates like that? Past success guarantees you nothing in the future.

As for trading him, DL didn't see a point in trading him when he was expecting Bud to come back to camp in the fall. It wasn't until Bud bolted out of the blue that the idea of trading him was an option and at that point what would anyone give him? Maybe a 7th? For a 7th or whatever, I'd rather just hold onto him and have exclusive negotiating rights and see if soemthing can be worked out.
From his perspective, how can't you see that? If four guys get recalls before you do, why do you think that'll be different going forward?

And that's the thing, there was no out of the blue, from everything I've heard. It was pretty clear they(Holloway and Moller) wanted out. DL refused, thinking he held all the power, and they bolted. And DL had his chance again to recoup on his losses, when Bud set a SEL playoff record for points, and he balked. I'm pretty sure he would've had decent enough value then.

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04-13-2013, 01:05 PM
  #78
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just scored the winner in OT in the first game of the SEL playoffs finals

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04-13-2013, 01:23 PM
  #79
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Love it! Good on him.

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04-13-2013, 01:27 PM
  #80
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Far from ready for the NHL. Doubt he will ever be.

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04-13-2013, 01:50 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by setkreiderfree View Post
The best way to put it nicely is that Bud has been completely screwed over by the Kings organization. He needs to demand a trade and go to an organization that will play him in the NHL. He's an NHL player.
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
97% of the Kings fans try to convince themselves that Bud didnt deserve a call up. Yet we have seen scrubs like Clune, Segal, Cliché get a call before him.

Holloway is NHL player and Dean messed up the situation.
You two are in the running for the 'captain hyperbole' award.

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just scored the winner in OT in the first game of the SEL playoffs finals
He's always proven to be clutch! One of his intangibles.

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Originally Posted by gretskidoo View Post
Far from ready for the NHL. Doubt he will ever be.
Can you elaborate?



Just my two cents--I didn't see it covered in my skim-over, but the summer when Bud went overseas, he did it before him and his agent even talked to DL, hence the surprise (or was it talked AGAIN after denying him a one-way contract, i forget?). I think most of us agree a roster spot was there for him to win, just like every other prospect. I'd love to see him in a Kings uni more than most would, but I don't think it's in the cards at this point.

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04-13-2013, 02:29 PM
  #82
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Far from ready for the NHL. Doubt he will ever be.
Elaborate, please

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04-13-2013, 02:55 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post


LMAO. King was on the top line for his 'miserable' six game recall in 2010-2011, but when both he and Nolan were recalled together in 2011-2012, they weren't recalled for a top 6 role. King averaged 14:38 in ice time that season and was 8th in average ice time per game amoungst forwards. Nolan averaged just 9:20 a game which was 18th amoungst forwards for the Kings. The only Kings forward who got less ice time than Nolan was Westgarth. They weren't recalled to play in the top two lines.

Now your posts have gone from tiresome to just plain silly.
Do you even watch the Kings or just enjoy making stuff up?

At their first Kings practice (2/10/12):

At practice today, they skated on the second line with Mike Richards.

After the first game per Sutter:

Sutter wasted no time in seeing what King could do at the NHL level.

“We threw him right into it, because you know what, we played [King and Nolan] together with Mike Richards,” Sutter noted. “We were struggling on the wing with that whole dimension part of it, getting minutes and trying to get some scoring opportunities. It really wasn’t about trust. It was saying we were going to play those young guys and see what happens.”

Later on they worked their way down because they weren't legit second liners but let there be no mistake -- they were brought up to fill holes left by Stoll and Penner.

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04-13-2013, 03:55 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MN14 View Post
Just my two cents--I didn't see it covered in my skim-over, but the summer when Bud went overseas, he did it before him and his agent even talked to DL, hence the surprise (or was it talked AGAIN after denying him a one-way contract, i forget?). I think most of us agree a roster spot was there for him to win, just like every other prospect. I'd love to see him in a Kings uni more than most would, but I don't think it's in the cards at this point.
There's a possibility. After his season's done in Sweden, he's going to be a UFA anyway, and if the Kings are still playing, they could negotiate a 1-year(basically until July) deal for him to join in their playoff push. Depends if Holloway wants to bet on himself again(a few bad NHL games could kill his market value) and if both sides could drop the grudge and come to an agreement. It'd give the Kings a shot at keeping him long term as well.

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04-13-2013, 09:34 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KapG View Post
What more could Bud have done in the AHL regular season and playoffs for two seasons running that would have made him deserving of a call up? Did he have to lead the league in scoring?

You keep saying in all likelihood he would have been the prime candidate for a call up if he had stayed. He should have been the prime candidate for a call up while he was playing for the monarchs yet he never was. Once again, not sure what else he had to do to be deserving of one....

We will see what happens this offseason, but I bet his decision is going to pay off for him. I think we are going to see a bunch of teams interested in signing him after the two seasons he has just had in the SEL. The first of which had him setting the SEL playoff scoring record and the second of which had him setting the all time points record for a foreign player as well as setting the SEL regular season all time assists record.
I agree with you that his decision will pay off for him. And good for him. I've said all through this thread that I think both people made the right call. It's others with an axe to grind on DL who want to insist he flubbed this one.

As for what more Bud have done, I don't really know. I'm not DL and Murray. But about the only recall that made no sense is Zeiler. But when guys like Zeiler, Mollar, and Schenn are dealt away or leave for other opportunities, it moves those guys out of your way. Not to mention, once again, no one in here that says Holloway had no chance to make the line up is acknowledging the fact that there were two spots at least to be made in camp, which were filled AFTER Bud left by the likes of Moreau and Hunter. Does anyone seriously debate that Bud would have had a good chot at those spots?

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
From his perspective, how can't you see that? If four guys get recalls before you do, why do you think that'll be different going forward?

And that's the thing, there was no out of the blue, from everything I've heard. It was pretty clear they(Holloway and Moller) wanted out. DL refused, thinking he held all the power, and they bolted. And DL had his chance again to recoup on his losses, when Bud set a SEL playoff record for points, and he balked. I'm pretty sure he would've had decent enough value then.
It was totally out of the blue. This was well documented on the Kings board. Bud's agent didn't even tell DL what was going on until he had already signed a deal in the SEL.

And if you think guys like Bud have decent value in the trade market, you're wrong. Like I said, odds are the best you'd get is a late round pick, and if so, if I was DL, I'd rather hold on to him and have one-on-one negotiating rights with him.

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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
Now your posts have gone from tiresome to just plain silly.
Do you even watch the Kings or just enjoy making stuff up?

At their first Kings practice (2/10/12):

At practice today, they skated on the second line with Mike Richards.

After the first game per Sutter:

Sutter wasted no time in seeing what King could do at the NHL level.

“We threw him right into it, because you know what, we played [King and Nolan] together with Mike Richards,” Sutter noted. “We were struggling on the wing with that whole dimension part of it, getting minutes and trying to get some scoring opportunities. It really wasn’t about trust. It was saying we were going to play those young guys and see what happens.”

Later on they worked their way down because they weren't legit second liners but let there be no mistake -- they were brought up to fill holes left by Stoll and Penner.
Hey man, welcome to the conversation! Nice to see you finally brought some facts to the discussion for once.

Too bad they aren't supported at all.

Here's the game recap from the first game for Nolan and King:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2011020818

King is 8th in ice time, Nolan is 9th. Trevor Lewis and Kyle Clifford had more ice time than them. Does that sound like 2nd line to you?

Practice is one thing. There was an article on here a while back about Sean Pronger's time on the first line in practice with Wayne Gretzky. Does that mean he was playing on Gretzky's line in games?

And their average ice time only dropped after that game. For Nolan, it dropped way off.

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Old
04-13-2013, 09:47 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
It was totally out of the blue. This was well documented on the Kings board. Bud's agent didn't even tell DL what was going on until he had already signed a deal in the SEL.

And if you think guys like Bud have decent value in the trade market, you're wrong. Like I said, odds are the best you'd get is a late round pick, and if so, if I was DL, I'd rather hold on to him and have one-on-one negotiating rights with him.
They might not have told DL beforehand, but DL could have seen it coming. He knew Holloway's camp was unhappy, he knew they wanted either a one-way deal or a trade to a team that would give him a shot. DL's anger over the situation came from thinking he had all the cards and Bud refusing to do what he wanted.

And we'll never know what his value was. I know there was league interest last summer, but DL refused to deal and signing an offer sheet before you've ever played an NHL game would be a PR disaster. Maybe the return wouldn't have been much, maybe it would've been decent, but in this case there's nothing to gain by losing him for nothing, which is by far the most likely scenario. Based on how last summer went, the bridge is pretty much burnt to a crisp.

Quote:
Hey man, welcome to the conversation! Nice to see you finally brought some facts to the discussion for once.

Too bad they aren't supported at all.

Here's the game recap from the first game for Nolan and King:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2011020818

King is 8th in ice time, Nolan is 9th. Trevor Lewis and Kyle Clifford had more ice time than them. Does that sound like 2nd line to you?

Practice is one thing. There was an article on here a while back about Sean Pronger's time on the first line in practice with Wayne Gretzky. Does that mean he was playing on Gretzky's line in games?

And their average ice time only dropped after that game. For Nolan, it dropped way off.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...11+13+29+31+33

Wasn't true for Nolan, but was 100% true for King. He might not have played a ton, but when he did, it was typically with Carter and Richards.

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04-14-2013, 08:28 AM
  #87
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Holloway have been under the ice for the last 5 games. However, he scored the overtime GWG yesterday against Luleå in the finals (1:7). Highlights here, if this works abroad.

http://www.hockeyligan.se/video/2298971594001/

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04-14-2013, 10:41 AM
  #88
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...

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Originally Posted by Bumblebeenineteen View Post
Holloway have been under the ice for the last 5 games. However, he scored the overtime GWG yesterday against Luleå in the finals (1:7). Highlights here, if this works abroad.

http://www.hockeyligan.se/video/2298971594001/

what does "under the ice" mean? not playing well? or injured?

looked good to me in those highlights


Last edited by Evgeny Oliker: 04-14-2013 at 10:56 AM.
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Old
04-14-2013, 11:02 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Evgeny Oliker View Post
what does "under the ice" mean? a-not playing well? or b- injured?

looked good to me in those highlights
IThe correct answer is, a -not playing well .

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04-14-2013, 01:54 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post



Hey man, welcome to the conversation! Nice to see you finally brought some facts to the discussion for once.

Too bad they aren't supported at all.

Here's the game recap from the first game for Nolan and King:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2011020818

King is 8th in ice time, Nolan is 9th. Trevor Lewis and Kyle Clifford had more ice time than them. Does that sound like 2nd line to you?

Practice is one thing. There was an article on here a while back about Sean Pronger's time on the first line in practice with Wayne Gretzky. Does that mean he was playing on Gretzky's line in games?

And their average ice time only dropped after that game. For Nolan, it dropped way off.
LOL. I don't need to "hear" anything -- I watched the game. They played with Richards. Maybe Sutter was just wrong then? I can't even give you the ole nice try here -- pathetic.

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04-15-2013, 09:47 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
They might not have told DL beforehand, but DL could have seen it coming. He knew Holloway's camp was unhappy, he knew they wanted either a one-way deal or a trade to a team that would give him a shot. DL's anger over the situation came from thinking he had all the cards and Bud refusing to do what he wanted.

And we'll never know what his value was. I know there was league interest last summer, but DL refused to deal and signing an offer sheet before you've ever played an NHL game would be a PR disaster. Maybe the return wouldn't have been much, maybe it would've been decent, but in this case there's nothing to gain by losing him for nothing, which is by far the most likely scenario. Based on how last summer went, the bridge is pretty much burnt to a crisp.
Funny how when another GM signs an offer sheet on a guy without one game of NHL experience, it's a "PR disaster" But when DL doesn't give a guy without one game of NHL experience a one-way contract, it's a bad move.

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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
LOL. I don't need to "hear" anything -- I watched the game. They played with Richards. Maybe Sutter was just wrong then? I can't even give you the ole nice try here -- pathetic.
Funny, because I watched the game too, and while King did have some shifts with Richards, he was hardly with him on a regular basis. Nolan same thing. I think Richards was largely double-shifted that game, and that's where the extra shifts with King and Nolan came in, not because they were up on the 2nd line.

The ice time I showed would support that too. Just because you play on a line with someone doesn't mean you're on the 2nd line. Guys get double shifted all the time, especially with Sutter who breaks up line combos very early if guys aren't playing well. As someone who watches the games, you should know that though.

And keep the insults coming, it's just great motivation!

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04-15-2013, 12:07 PM
  #92
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Funny, because I watched the game too, and while King did have some shifts with Richards, he was hardly with him on a regular basis. Nolan same thing. I think Richards was largely double-shifted that game, and that's where the extra shifts with King and Nolan came in, not because they were up on the 2nd line.

The ice time I showed would support that too. Just because you play on a line with someone doesn't mean you're on the 2nd line. Guys get double shifted all the time, especially with Sutter who breaks up line combos very early if guys aren't playing well. As someone who watches the games, you should know that though.

And keep the insults coming, it's just great motivation!
Please re-read Sutter's quotes after the game. And, furthermore Richards started playing with Nolan and King right from the start and virtually all of the game and for several games after. Moreover, you're ice time stats are just absurd -- here are the facts:

TOI - ES

JW 16.50
AK 16.27
DB 16.20
AL 14.53
KC 14.47
JN 14.16
MR 14.06
DK 13.45
TL 13.45
BR 08.31
CF 08.10
TH 07.09

It is easy to distinguish the first and fourth lines -- the second and third lines -- no -- which is fairly normal. Moreover there is 1 1/2 minutes of ot distorting the numbers a bit. Keep trying though...

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04-15-2013, 12:15 PM
  #93
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Judging from the amount of defensive posts by Kings fans in this thread, I'd say Holloway will be a world beater next year in the NHL

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04-15-2013, 01:14 PM
  #94
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im still bitter he chest sniped that penalty shot in game 6 in OTwhen he was here against Binghtomton.
But seriously I would like to see him come back and get a shot with a NHL team. He deserves it. He was good in Manchester and was a fan favorite.

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04-15-2013, 03:42 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
Please re-read Sutter's quotes after the game. And, furthermore Richards started playing with Nolan and King right from the start and virtually all of the game and for several games after. Moreover, you're ice time stats are just absurd -- here are the facts:

TOI - ES

JW 16.50
AK 16.27
DB 16.20
AL 14.53
KC 14.47
JN 14.16
MR 14.06
DK 13.45
TL 13.45
BR 08.31
CF 08.10
TH 07.09

It is easy to distinguish the first and fourth lines -- the second and third lines -- no -- which is fairly normal. Moreover there is 1 1/2 minutes of ot distorting the numbers a bit. Keep trying though...
My ice time stats aren't obsurd. They aren't even mine, they come from the NHL's website. If your above ES ice time stats are indeed accurate (I don't have them, so I'll take your word for it) then I'll bow to your knowledge on this issue. I also have not seen Sutter's post-game quotes, so I can't comment on those either.

Essentially though, this is all a sideshow to the real issue, mainly on whether or not Bud was way down the depth chart or not. Bottom line is, heding into camp, there were two open roster spots until Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter came into the scene, which was after Holloway left for Sweden. He'd have had a chance to beat those guys in camp for a spot. And frankly, if Holloway couldn't compete to those two, he didn't deserve to be in the NHL and on a one-way deal anyways. King and Nolan couldn't, seeing as they didn't beat out Moreau and Hunter in camp, so if you're going to say that Holloway couldn't beat out either of them (especially Hunter since he was on a try-out until he made the team and then was signed to a contract) then really, did DL make an error on not giving him a one-way deal?

The answer is no. And, as I've said all along, neither did Bud make a mistake going to Europe. It really is possible for two people to make opposite decisions and it be the right one for each of them. I've said this all along, I don't really understand your desire to hammer away at the belief DL did some large disservice to the team but not giving in to Bud.

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04-15-2013, 06:50 PM
  #96
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My ice time stats aren't obsurd. They aren't even mine, they come from the NHL's website. If your above ES ice time stats are indeed accurate (I don't have them, so I'll take your word for it) then I'll bow to your knowledge on this issue. I also have not seen Sutter's post-game quotes, so I can't comment on those either.

Essentially though, this is all a sideshow to the real issue, mainly on whether or not Bud was way down the depth chart or not. Bottom line is, heding into camp, there were two open roster spots until Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter came into the scene, which was after Holloway left for Sweden. He'd have had a chance to beat those guys in camp for a spot. And frankly, if Holloway couldn't compete to those two, he didn't deserve to be in the NHL and on a one-way deal anyways. King and Nolan couldn't, seeing as they didn't beat out Moreau and Hunter in camp, so if you're going to say that Holloway couldn't beat out either of them (especially Hunter since he was on a try-out until he made the team and then was signed to a contract) then really, did DL make an error on not giving him a one-way deal?

The answer is no. And, as I've said all along, neither did Bud make a mistake going to Europe. It really is possible for two people to make opposite decisions and it be the right one for each of them. I've said this all along, I don't really understand your desire to hammer away at the belief DL did some large disservice to the team but not giving in to Bud.
I don't disagree with that -- my point was that by the time contract time came around it was too late to salvage the situation. He should have given Bud a sip before or at least told him he truly loved him or something or other. Instead, Bud took a powder and with good reason from his POV. I never said DL should have given him a 1 way contract -- just that he should have anticipated the problem.

The fact that DL was taken totally by surprise tells me 1 of two things happened a) he didn't realize how quickly Bud would be an UFA b) he wasn't communicating sufficiently with him on his status in the organization.

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04-15-2013, 07:55 PM
  #97
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Funny how when another GM signs an offer sheet on a guy without one game of NHL experience, it's a "PR disaster" But when DL doesn't give a guy without one game of NHL experience a one-way contract, it's a bad move.
Not a PR disaster for the team or GM, a PR disaster for the player.

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04-16-2013, 10:24 AM
  #98
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I don't disagree with that -- my point was that by the time contract time came around it was too late to salvage the situation. He should have given Bud a sip before or at least told him he truly loved him or something or other. Instead, Bud took a powder and with good reason from his POV. I never said DL should have given him a 1 way contract -- just that he should have anticipated the problem.

The fact that DL was taken totally by surprise tells me 1 of two things happened a) he didn't realize how quickly Bud would be an UFA b) he wasn't communicating sufficiently with him on his status in the organization.
I think the problem was the one-way contract issue. I've heard of no other problems between Holloway and the Kings regarding a new contract at the time other than Holloway wanting a one-way deal and DL saying no.

Now there could be other issues I'm unaware of, but that's what I have gleaned from the info I've ever read on the situation.

Which is why I think all along its really no ones fault. I don't think DL should have handed out a one-way deal to a guy like Bud, and I think Bud was smart to chase the bigger money in Europe.

DL did know when Bud would be a UFA. I think the real question might be what type of ceiling that the scouts told DL Bud had. If they told him Bud was likely to be a 3rd/4th line type of guy, I can understand why DL didn't want to budge much on the one-way deal. Other than that, I've heard of no other issue regarding communication or the like. But as I said, that could easily fall into the issue of info that we haven't been made privy to.

I still disagree with giving Bud a sip, simply to give him a sip. For one, it's clearly not been the philosophy of the organization to give recalls to appease players, and secondly, someone in the organization (Terry Murray, Hextall, DL, etc.) obviously felt that Holloway either wasn't ready for a recall, or wasn't the right fit for a recall for the spot that was open.

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Not a PR disaster for the team or GM, a PR disaster for the player.
How is signing a one-way deal for a player like Holloway a PR disaster?

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04-16-2013, 11:19 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I still disagree with giving Bud a sip, simply to give him a sip. For one, it's clearly not been the philosophy of the organization to give recalls to appease players, and secondly, someone in the organization (Terry Murray, Hextall, DL, etc.) obviously felt that Holloway either wasn't ready for a recall, or wasn't the right fit for a recall for the spot that was open.

Bud should have gotten a sip because he earned it -- not to be "appeased". At this point it looks like the staff badly misjudged him.

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04-16-2013, 01:27 PM
  #100
rajuabju
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Originally Posted by HookKing View Post
Bud should have gotten a sip because he earned it -- not to be "appeased". At this point it looks like the staff badly misjudged him.
I basically agree with this. Whether or not Holloway would have stuck with the Kings, we'll never know. But he deserved a chance. Never got one.

I 100% expect another NHL team to give him that chance in the very near future.

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