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Old
04-13-2013, 03:34 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
I don't get how people can love a member of their favourite team so much, that it is now a detriment to the team, and go to such great lengths to cover flaws and attempt to prove he's elite
Wow, now you are calling Price a detriment to the team. Say he is overrated, and whatever, but you are just being stupid now.

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04-13-2013, 03:38 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by TalkingHead View Post
Wow, now you are calling Price a detriment to the team. Say he is overrated, and whatever, but you are just being stupid now.
I didn't say Price is a detriment to the team. I said your love for Price is a detriment to the team. Calling him "elite" and "top 5" when he hasn't done anything to warrant this is a detriment to the team.

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04-13-2013, 03:40 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by CP31 View Post
Most fans around the league agree he's a top 5 goalie... Same for analysts and whatnot. Hell I was watching TSN and I believe it was Jamie Mclennan (sp?) who said he was his vezina winner (which I don't agree with, even though he's been very good, a few others have had phenomenal seasons).
and you don't find that hilarious?? When's the last time a Vezina winner was 23rd in the league in save %

He has stolen 1 GAME this year! 1 GAME!

Ask anybody on these boards, even the most "Lovers" of Price ..Price is NOT the reason we are winning. He is among the team and he's solid but no way is he the reason we are fighting for 1st ..like for example Bobrovsky is the reason CBJ are fighting for the playoffs.

I'll say it again .. PRICE THE ONLY TOP 5 GOALIE in the league that is almost never top 5 in any stat!

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Old
04-13-2013, 03:41 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
A lot of those stats are A-his rookie year, though he played well in round 1 he struggled in round 2 at 20 as a rookie. A case of too much too soon but good experience. B-the 09-10 year where he had no chance playing behind a battered/decimated team with a bunch of key guys out and others playing at 50%.

In 10-11 he actually outplayed Thomas statistically in that 7 game series, Boston went on to win the cup, he played at an all-star level that year.
he lost all 3 games in overtime tho

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Old
04-13-2013, 03:42 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
and you don't find that hilarious?? When's the last time a Vezina winner was 23rd in the league in save %

He has stolen 1 GAME this year! 1 GAME!

Ask anybody on these boards, even the most "Lovers" of Price ..Price is NOT the reason we are winning. He is among the team and he's solid but no way is he the reason we are fighting for 1st ..like for example Bobrovsky is the reason CBJ are fighting for the playoffs.

I'll say it again .. PRICE THE ONLY TOP 5 GOALIE in the league that is almost never top 5 in any stat!
Well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to convince the 5-10 posters here that think he is a bad goalie otherwise.

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04-13-2013, 03:44 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by CP31 View Post
Well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to convince the 5-10 posters here that think he is a bad goalie otherwise.
Who said he's a bad goalie? Where are these stmnts coming from?

Everybody is saying he IS average to above-average, but you got people like you who are saying he's vezina material and others saying he's "elite"

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04-13-2013, 04:04 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by CP31 View Post
Well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to convince the 5-10 posters here that think he is a bad goalie otherwise.
Yeah I never said hes a bad goalie either... hes not... I said hes an avg goalie. Though he has been pretty atrocious in 3 out of his 32 starts this year....

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04-13-2013, 04:10 PM
  #483
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Carey Cost and Traitor8 are out to lunch.

Price if not elite is at least well above average.

I don't think he's having an awesome year and think he'd admit as much himself.

He's still getting the job done though.

Like 99% of us here and likely most of the Gm's/fanbases in the NHL I consider us very lucky to have a (young) rock back there for years to come.

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Old
04-13-2013, 04:15 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by capebretoncanadien View Post
Carey Cost and Traitor8 are out to lunch.

Price if not elite is at least well above average.

I don't think he's having an awesome year and think he'd admit as much himself.

He's still getting the job done though.

Like 99% of us here and likely most of the Gm's/fanbases in the NHL I consider us very lucky to have a (young) rock back there for years to come.
In the past 5 years, Price has 1 great year, 1 garbage year, 3 average years.

I didn't know that means he's "if not elite is at least well above average"

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04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
  #485
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Thing is, I do believe he's a good goalie. But if you do ask GM, players or whoever, I would seriously believe that when it's time to evaluate Carey, they are, still to this day, talking about POTENTIAL. Which has to mean that everything hasn't been proven yet. Talent is there, everything is in the works to be there, but you make or break a goalie in the season that counts the most....the playoffs. The day he brings us somewhere, he's then going to be looked at differently. Yet....it still doesn't make people believe in Fleury though who is believed to be the sole product of his team which I don't agree. But I think it's fair to have some doubts about Carey's. To put everything on his shoulders, of course not but to treat him like eveyr member of this team. DD keeps being bashed every single day, not sure why Carey should be exempt of a little bashing. If every goalie has been bashed....Patrick Roy included, why the exemption for Price?

Now we need to be careful with our analysis though. So we sucked last year, Price wasn't able to do anything so Price sucks.....But we're great this year, Price does his job but then doesn't get the credit? We can not have Price in our top 5 list, but let's be a little fair here. And where he is in the save% column is irrelevant based on how many games the guys in front of him played....'cause in a short season, that plays A WHOLE LOT.

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Old
04-13-2013, 04:23 PM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
In the past 5 years, Price has 1 great year, 1 garbage year, 3 average years.

I didn't know that means he's "if not elite is at least well above average"

You're ignoring all the y'know....facts that people have been providing for you in this thread.

Price has been an above average goalie in every season he's played except one.

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Old
04-13-2013, 04:24 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
I didn't say Price is a detriment to the team. I said your love for Price is a detriment to the team. Calling him "elite" and "top 5" when he hasn't done anything to warrant this is a detriment to the team.
How so? care to elaborate, i'm still new to my psychic abilities

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Old
04-13-2013, 04:25 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by capebretoncanadien View Post
You're ignoring all the y'know....facts that people have been providing for you in this thread.

Price has been an above average goalie in every season he's played except one.
Nobody has provided facts. They all do personal attacks. I'm the only one providing stats along with Carey Cos!

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04-13-2013, 04:30 PM
  #489
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2012-2013 Price 23rd in Save %, 5th in Wins, 13th in GAA
2011-2012 Price 20th in Save %, 21st in Wins, 18th in GAA
2010-2011 Price 7th in Save %, 1st in Wins, 10th in GAA
2009-2010 Price 21st in Save %, 37th in Wins, 31st in GAA
2008-2009 Price 31st in Save %, 24th in Wins, 31st in GAA

Average: 20.4 in Save%, 17.6 in Wins, 20.6 in GAA,

Yes he's "WELL" above average


Last edited by Traitor8: 04-13-2013 at 04:48 PM.
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Old
04-13-2013, 04:42 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
I don't get how people can love a member of their favourite team so much, that it is now a detriment to the team, and go to such great lengths to cover flaws and attempt to prove he's elite
Wait who?

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Old
04-13-2013, 04:44 PM
  #491
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Price had better crank up his game for the playoffs cause soff goals just wont cut it this time around. He's going to be open to criticism if he doesn't get us past the first round. Trade rumours are going to start and they'll be justified. I imagine the return would be interesting.

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04-13-2013, 04:46 PM
  #492
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For some people it's just never enough.

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04-13-2013, 04:55 PM
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
2012-2013 Price 23rd in Save %, 5th in Wins, 13th in GAA
2011-2012 Price 20th in Save %, 21st in Wins, 18th in GAA
2010-2011 Price 7th in Save %, 1st in Wins, 10th in GAA
2009-2010 Price 21st in Save %, 37th in Wins, 31st in GAA
2008-2009 Price 31st in Save %, 24th in Wins, 31st in GAA

Average: 20.4 in Save%, 17.6 in Wins, 20.6 in GAA,

Yes he's "WELL" above average
10th in Save % among active NHL goalies (with more than 200GP).


Last edited by Noob616: 04-13-2013 at 05:11 PM.
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Old
04-13-2013, 04:58 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
And you proved my point ... you said "class average" so you agree with me that he is average to above average, not "ELITE".

I get your point that a stat is not equal to a rank but my argument still holds.
I was not trying to say that he was elite. Just that the mark itself is not 9 points out of 17. And yes, at the moment, I think that statistically, he's average.

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04-13-2013, 05:05 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
Nobody has provided facts. They all do personal attacks. I'm the only one providing stats along with Carey Cos!
All stats sourced from quanthockey.com

2007-08 NHL average SV% - .909 Price- .920
2008-09 NHL average SV% - .908 Price- .905
2009-10 NHL average SV% - .911 Price- .912
2010-11 NHL average SV% -.913 Price- .923
2011-12 NHL average SV% - .914 Price- .916
2012-13 NHL average SV% -.912 Price (32GP) .915

Above average in every season save for one. I'll agree with you that he's not elite, and I'll agree with you that he's not been good enough this year. However, a goalie this young having 5 above NHL average seasons just doesn't happen. He's the real deal.

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04-13-2013, 05:06 PM
  #496
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
2012-2013 Price 23rd in Save %
2011-2012 Price 20th in Save %
2010-2011 Price 7th in Save %
2009-2010 Price 21st in Save %
2008-2009 Price 31st in Save %


Yes he's "WELL" above average
But but sv% is irrelevant...

2012-2013 Price 5th in Wins
2011-2012 Price 21th in Wins
2010-2011 Price 2nd in Wins
2009-2010 Price 37th in Wins
2008-2009 Price 24th in Wins

AVG ranked in Wins: 18th (17.8)

2012-2013 Price 11th in GP
2011-2012 Price 10th in GP
2010-2011 Price 2nd in GP
2009-2010 Price 33th in GP
2008-2009 Price 21th in GP

AVG ranked in GP: 15th (15.4)

2012-2013 Price 14th in GAA (10 gp minimum)
2011-2012 Price 19th in GAA (20 gp minimum)
2010-2011 Price 11th in GAA (20 gp minimum)
2009-2010 Price 33th in GAA (20 gp minimum)
2008-2009 Price 35th in GAA (20 gp minimum)

AVG ranked in GAA: 22th (22.4)

18th, 15th, 22th..... Elite goalie

But of course don't let facts get in way

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Old
04-13-2013, 05:08 PM
  #497
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
2012-2013 Price 23rd in Save %, 5th in Wins, 13th in GAA
2011-2012 Price 20th in Save %, 21st in Wins, 18th in GAA
2010-2011 Price 7th in Save %, 1st in Wins, 10th in GAA
2009-2010 Price 21st in Save %, 37th in Wins, 31st in GAA
2008-2009 Price 31st in Save %, 24th in Wins, 31st in GAA

Average: 20.4 in Save%, 17.6 in Wins, 20.6 in GAA,

Yes he's "WELL" above average
AH man you beat me at it lol

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04-13-2013, 05:14 PM
  #498
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
All stats sourced from quanthockey.com

2007-08 NHL average SV% - .909 Price- .920
2008-09 NHL average SV% - .908 Price- .905
2009-10 NHL average SV% - .911 Price- .912
2010-11 NHL average SV% -.913 Price- .923
2011-12 NHL average SV% - .914 Price- .916
2012-13 NHL average SV% -.912 Price (32GP) .915

Above average in every season save for one. I'll agree with you that he's not elite, and I'll agree with you that he's not been good enough this year. However, a goalie this young having 5 above NHL average seasons just doesn't happen. He's the real deal.
Now take away the backups and he's going to be average or under average compared to starters.

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04-13-2013, 05:21 PM
  #499
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Now take away the backups and he's going to be average or under average compared to starters.
Well then we have to take out the yearly outliers (your Brian Eliott/Mike Smith types) that come up every year, because I don't think anyone would rather us have Eliott than Price.

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04-13-2013, 05:27 PM
  #500
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9th out of 17 eligible goalie is not elite. It's called "AVERAGE" starter. Wins and GAA are team stats, not goalie stats. Niemi, Nabakov, Fleury have great amount of wins. Do you consider all of them to be "elite" as well?

Price has not had a top 3 season but he performs above average season to season ...ok fine ...but that's still considered elite, that's considered average to above average. Not Elite

You clearly don't know what "elite' means.

Weak comparaisons for goalies ...

Lundqvist was a 7th round pick. It's a miracle he even made it. He also didn't get payed 6.5 M $ at 25 either.

True Brodeur didn't win a Vezina until 31 but he had a stanley cup at 22-23, a jennings at 24-25.

Hasek ..again 10th round pick..he didn't get his chance until they traded him to Buffalo. Kiprusoff 5th round pick and again didn't get paid 10% of team's budget. Miller 5th round and he went to play in the NCAA.

You can't ignore his cap hit. Performance evaluations are directly in relation to how much you get paid. If Gomez was making 1 M $, he would still be on the team. If Cole was making 2.5 M $, he would still be on the team. If Price was making 2 M $, nobody would be whinning.

We HAVE to take his salary into consdieration because of the cap as well. At 6.5 M $, is he fulfilling requirements? The answer is NO! Can we better utilize this 6.5 $ ? The answer is YES.

If Wins is all you care about then Nabakov,Fleury, Niemi, Budaj (7-1-1), Emery are all elite!

Wow half the league is elite! What a great time we are in.
Before I begin, I would like to thank you for your obviously well thought out response. It's quite clear we will never agree on the subject. But let's just get a few things straight:

1) It's not simply 9 out of 17. That's not that great. It's the combination of playing 30+ games, being 9th in SV%, 4th in GAA, 4th in wins, AND 5th in shutouts that makes it great. Honestly. Why on Earth does it make any sense to include goalies who don't play that often? If they are supposedly on Price's level, then wouldn't their teams play them more than 9 or 10 games out of 40? This makes no sense whatsoever. You have a guy who has a .915 SV% and has played 3/4 of the schedule, but the guy who has a .920 SV% and played only 10 games is some how better?

2) GAA is not a team stat. Not even close. In my opinion it is the only legitimate stat that you should look at when evaluating a goaltender's performance, with a close second being shutouts. They tell you the goaltenders who a) let in the fewest goals on average, and b) have the largest number of perfect games. SV% is artifically inflated/deflated more often than not.

3) Elite: "A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth."

I consider Price to be in the category of netminders right at the top of the league (although Lundqvist is the unquestioned number 1 right now) The next tier (still elite even though you aren't Lundqvist) has Price, Rinne, Miller, and Rask in it. That's it. I don't think there are any better than these 5.

4) Look at career SV% leaders for active goaltenders in the NHL (min. 250 GP).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ct_active.html

Price is 7th. Pretty elite. Now let's take away Hiller, Luongo, and Vokoun because they aren't number 1 starters anymore. Where does Price end up? Wow. 4th among active goalies. Now THAT'S elite.

What's that? He even places in the top 10 when you include ALL goaltenders in NHL history with over 250 games?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ct_career.html

How is THAT not elite?

5) Yes, Lundqvist, Miller, Hasek, and Kipper were all late round picks. They never won any individual hardware until later in their careers, with Hasek being the only cup winner, in a backup's role nonetheless. So they couldn't be elite goalies until they won something? Price is at the age now when most of those guys were just getting into the NHL. Price has outperformed them at the same age simply by being in the NHL. Why should we expect that to change in the future? How does that take anything away from Price's elite status?

And how many Martin Brodeur's have there been in NHL history? 1? Price is obviously not that guy, so let's not make unfair comparisons. That does not for a second mean he is not an elite goaltender. He might win 5 Vezina's from here until the time he is 31 for all we know.

6) Yes, wins are all I care about. NOT the number of wins, or winning percentage. Those come and go with the team in front of him. I want the goalie who gives the team the best chance of winning every single game. I believe, and so do most knowledgeable hockey people, that Price is among the best in the league when it comes to that regard.

7) The cap hit is a non issue. Why shouldn't he be paid 10% of the cap? He plays the full 60 minutes for 75% of our games in the entire season! Is Price overpaid? I'm not so sure when you look at his body of work, consistency, and untapped potential. Does it matter to me? Not a chance. I can't change how much he makes and it doesn't have an adverse effect on our ability to field a competitive team so why would I?

Fans like you are the reason I wish the NHL would implement a gag order on salary disclosure. People want to run the guy down because he makes a lot of money, while being completely oblivious to the fact that there are less than a handful of goalies who can do a similar job to him over a long period of time. There are even less who could do a better one. Be careful what you wish for.


8) So when it comes to my checklist for determining elite-ness, I like to go with consistency combined with results. Using the definition above:

Price consistently ranks above the average at his position in:

- Games played? Check.
- GAA? Check.
- SV%? Check.
- Wins? Check.
- Shutouts? Check.

So tell me: How is a goalie who is above average, year in, year out in virtually everything not elite?

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