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Erik Karlsson vs. Chris Paul - Who is more valuable to their team?

View Poll Results: Who is more valuable to their team?
Erik Karlsson 21 10.24%
Chris Paul 81 39.51%
Even 4 1.95%
I don't know enough about Chris Paul and/or basketball sucks 99 48.29%
Voters: 205. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-12-2013, 10:02 PM
  #101
bp spec
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In my opinion it's CP3.

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Old
04-12-2013, 10:25 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1395625
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1401779

Also, TSN, CBC and Sportsnet disagree with you. All three have called Karlsson a top 5 player and the best dman in the league.
You keep linking me these HFBoard polls, do you think I care what they say? Pavel Datsyuk a player who hit 67 points (wasn't even PPG) last year and hasn't topped the 70pt mark in four consecutive seasons was voted as the 5th best player! Those polls are a popularity match, nothing more, nothing less.

Sportnet isn't a credible sports authority, have you seen their regular hockey panel? Nick Kypreos, Doug MacLean and the other guy just spout off nonsense.

Let's look at the world's hockey leader TSN for example:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=81134

Quote:
TSN has unveiled the NHL's Top 50 players heading into the 2012-13 hockey season based on selections by a panel of experts
Shea Weber, the player who should have won the Norris Trophy last season, is the first defenseman voted in at #7.

Erik Karlsson follows at #11.
---
Look, nowhere have I said that Karlsson isn't a tremendous talent and a very promising player. But at his juncture he is not the best defenseman let alone best player in the game. He is a dynamic offensive talent with a great transition game but the defensive side of his game is undoubtedly lacking. Aside from the ~10 games he played this season, he was not a fixture on his team's PK and when the games got tough in the postseason his main strength; his offensive game, dried up completely.

It's no slight to Karlsson that at age 22 he is considered the 2nd best defenseman in the world behind a much larger, physical and more seasoned 27 year old defenseman in Shea Weber. I just believe that Weber brings a much more well-rounded package to the table that involves him being among the most consistent performers at ES/PP/PK that includes him being an overall offensive, defensive and physical beast.


Last edited by HockeyThoughts: 04-12-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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Old
04-12-2013, 10:36 PM
  #103
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Basketball sucks.

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Old
04-12-2013, 10:37 PM
  #104
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Paul. It'd be difficult for a hockey player to win these kinds of polls because it's much easier for an individual to impact a basketball game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Sportnet isn't a credible sports authority, have you seen their regular hockey panel? Nick Kypreos, Doug MacLean and the other guy just spout off nonsense.

Let's look at leading hockey leader TSN for example:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=81134



Shea Weber, the player who should have won the Norris Trophy last season, is the first defenseman voted in at #7.

Erik Karlsson follows at #11.
I agree that Sportsnet's coverage is inferior to TSN's, but that's not a good enough reason to dismiss one channel's opinion as nonsense and then herald the other as gospel truth. At the end of the day, both of them use the opinions of former players and coaches. Neither is definitively more reliable than the other.

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Old
04-12-2013, 10:38 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
You keep linking me these HFBoard polls, do you think I care what they say? Pavel Datsyuk a player who hit 67 points (wasn't even PPG) last year and hasn't topped the 70pt mark in four consecutive seasons was voted as the 5th best player! Those polls are a popularity match, nothing more, nothing less.

Sportnet isn't a credible sports authority, have you seen their regular hockey panel? Nick Kypreos, Doug MacLean and the other guy just spout off nonsense.

Let's look at leading hockey leader TSN for example:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=81134



Shea Weber, the player who should have won the Norris Trophy last season, is the first defenseman voted in at #7.

Erik Karlsson follows at #11.
---
Look, nowhere have I said that Karlsson isn't a tremendous talent and a very promising player. But at his juncture he is not the best defenseman let alone best player in the game. He is a dynamic offensive talent with a great transition game but the defensive side of his game is undoubtedly lacking. Aside from the ~10 games he played this season, he was not a fixture on his team's PK and when the games got tough in the postseason his main strength; his offensive game, dried up completely.

It's no slight to Karlsson that at age 22 he is considered the 2nd best defenseman in the world behind a much larger, physical and more seasoned 27 year old defenseman in Shea Weber. I just believe that Weber brings a much more well-rounded package to the table that involves him being among the most consistent performers at ES/PP/PK that includes him being an overall offensive, defensive and physical beast.
The point of the polls is to show a ton of people disagree with you.

That TSN list is old and pointless, especially considering they called him the best dman after making the list and the only player that has more impact on the game is Crosby. http://video.tsn.ca/videohub.aspx?dl.../864675/clip/0

All you got is your own opinion.

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Old
04-12-2013, 10:51 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
The point of the polls is to show a ton of people disagree with you.

That TSN list is old and pointless, especially considering they called him the best dman after making the list and the only player that has more impact on the game is Crosby. http://video.tsn.ca/videohub.aspx?dl.../864675/clip/0

All you got is your own opinion.
That TSN list is from the beginning of the season.. That's about as relevant as you get lol

Or am I supposed to take the opinion of some hockey analysts ~10 games into a shortened NHL season

The only reasonable comparison we have is Erik Karlsson and Shea Weber's 11/12 season. While Karlsson may have posted more assists, there really isn't any other statistical category that he trumps Weber in over the full season.

Weber had:
-Better +/-
-More hits
-More blocks
-More PPG
-More TOI/G
-More SHTOI/G (substantially)
-QB'ed a better PP

Karlsson had:
-More assists
-More PPA
-More TkA
-More GvA


Last edited by HockeyThoughts: 04-12-2013 at 11:03 PM.
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Old
04-12-2013, 10:53 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
That TSN is from the beginning of the season.. That's about as relevant as you get lol
Hockey has been played since than. The video was from a few days before Karlsson got injured.

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Old
04-12-2013, 10:57 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Hockey has been played since than. The video was from a few days before Karlsson got injured.
Yeah and at that point Thomas Vanek and Patrick Marleau were far and away the best players in the NHL.. What's your point? Erik Karlsson has played 14 games out of a 40 game+ season, hardly a large enough sample-size to simply override his full season campaign in 11/12.

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Old
04-12-2013, 10:59 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Yeah and at that point Thomas Vanek and Patrick Marleau were far and away the best players in the NHL.. What's your point? Erik Karlsson has played 14 games out of a 40 game+ season, hardly a large enough sample-size to simply override his full season campaign in 11/12.
Than you clearly didn't watch Karlsson play this season. This is a pointless argument when you got nothing to back up your argument.

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Old
04-12-2013, 11:02 PM
  #110
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I heard of Chris Paul but didn't know he was that special. Cool, good for him.

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Old
04-12-2013, 11:02 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Than you clearly didn't watch Karlsson play this season. This is a pointless argument when you got nothing to back up your argument.
Oh the old, you must not have seen my player play since you disagree with me!

No, I saw Erik Karlsson play, just like I have seen Shea Weber play. He looked good, just like Weber has. I simply do not believe that a 14 game sample size is large enough to substantially change one's analysis. What am I supposed to be so amazed about anyways? He didn't do anything that set his very short 12/13 season apart from the 11/12 one.. Except for finally log some time on the PK and post a substantially lower-PPG as opposed to his preceding campaign.

The Ottawa Senators were only 7-5-2 at the point of his injury as well.. Not a drastic improvement (or any) over their 41-31-10 record from 11/12.

Edit: And LOL at the bolded. I have nothing to back up MY argument? Your the one who is considering 14 games of a shortened season as gospel, while providing no statistical evidence that Erik Karlsson is a better player than Shea Weber. I have stated my case, now you state yours instead of posting lists voted by fans and 2nd rate media outlets. I wanna hear your unbiased analysis on the players -- that is, if you even watch any games outside of the Ottawa Senators..


Last edited by HockeyThoughts: 04-12-2013 at 11:16 PM.
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Old
04-13-2013, 04:24 AM
  #112
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I agree with Hockeythoughts, and would even go as far to take Weber and Chara ahead of Karlsson. Defensemen need to be elite in all 3 zones for me to classify as "the best". Erik has been improving every season, but he has 2/3rds of the zones covered. IMO and no offense Sens fans, Karlsson is NOT elite defensively, and doesn't have that part of his game to lean back on when his offense dries up. Weber, Chara do. As HockeyThoughts exquisitely stated, nothing wrong with being the 2nd or 3rd best defenseman at age 22.

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Old
04-13-2013, 05:10 AM
  #113
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This is the first time I hear of this Chris Paul guy. Went with the last option.

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Old
04-13-2013, 09:06 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I dont understand basketball. Every shot and every dunk all look the exact same and yet people freak out like its never happened before. Its an unwatchable joke.
If you feel that way, you've never seen Kobe shoot, or Iverson cross, or Carter dunk. Those guys got me excited for the game.

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Old
04-13-2013, 10:16 AM
  #115
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I think we have to reaccess what we consider to be elite offense from a defenseman if 50 points in 82 games is enough for one to be considered elite.

Is 60 in 82 beyond elite? Or is it still just elite?

How about 82 in 82? Elite still? or is that historic?

People seem to believe that points have diminishing returns, which is silly.

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04-13-2013, 10:33 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Than you clearly didn't watch Karlsson play this season. This is a pointless argument when you got nothing to back up your argument.
Coming from the guy who said that Karlsson is a top 3 player without doing anything to back it up.

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Old
04-13-2013, 11:28 AM
  #117
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Voted Chris Paul because you can never go wrong picking a guy with two first names. So Lucky!

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04-13-2013, 12:33 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Coming from the guy who said that Karlsson is a top 3 player without doing anything to back it up.
Who gave up when I asked him to provide some real analysis on players on a team not based in Ottawa, Ontario

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Old
04-13-2013, 10:57 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
That TSN list is from the beginning of the season.. That's about as relevant as you get lol

Or am I supposed to take the opinion of some hockey analysts ~10 games into a shortened NHL season

The only reasonable comparison we have is Erik Karlsson and Shea Weber's 11/12 season. While Karlsson may have posted more assists, there really isn't any other statistical category that he trumps Weber in over the full season.

Weber had:
-Better +/-
-More hits
-More blocks
-More PPG
-More TOI/G
-More SHTOI/G (substantially)
-QB'ed a better PP

Karlsson had:
-More assists
-More PPA
-More TkA
-More GvA
Karlsson had more even strength points than Weber had TOTAL POINTS. Therefore Karlsson substantially better at even strength?

Karlsson was on the ice for most goals scored for than any other player in the league, including Art Ross winner Malkin. Therefore he is more valuable than any other player?

Karlsson had 10 more total assists than Weber had total points.

See I can nit-pick stats too.

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