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Who is the most overrated player of all time?

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Old
04-13-2013, 01:01 PM
  #101
livewell68
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Sergei Fedorov. Easily.

Second-line centerman + a few shifts on D + a youtube clip of him stealing a puck from an aging Gretzky + playing on Detroit = greatest, most amazingest, clutchiest, two-way forward ever?
This is a bit exaggerated. Was he a tad bit overrated? Sure, but your assessment is very inaccurate. At his absolute peak, Fedorov was Datsyuk with much more speed and offensive skill.

I think over the last 25 years, his 1993-94 season is probably among the top 10 best. Scoring 120 Pts while winning the Hart and Selke is exceptional and one for the record books.

Fedorov is a top 60-40 player all-time but I do agree that he is overrated when some seem to think that he was a better player than Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Lindros, Selanne, Bure or Karyia.

As a whole Fedorov had a great career and is a Hall of Famer but he was far too inconsistent in his career and his playoff resume is overrated considering he played on some of the strongest and deepest teams of the 90's and yet he falls short of being a PPG player. He was also guilty of being lazy more times than not. He was the kind of player that when on was a top 5 player but he also always left you wanting more and thinking "what could have been?".

At his best he was the most skilled Russian player probably of all-time (this was very short lived though as he was rather average outside of his few PPG season) but at his worst which was more common unfortunately, he was a highly skilled, good two-way 2nd line center.

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04-13-2013, 01:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by nEaLB4ZoD View Post
Just wondering who everyone thinks is the most overrated player of all time. I personally would have to say Martin Brodeur. He was very good to great goalie but never exceptional and never at any time was he the best goalie in the league. I think it is quite a stretch to put him in the same class as Roy and Hasek. What do you guys think?
Vezina Trophy: 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008
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3 First team all-stars, 4 second team all-stars


Hey look, there are a lot of overrated players, but Brodeur is the last one I would pick. Definitely had a time in his career where he was the best in the game. Honestly, if this is 2004 who do you want in your NHL net? Plus, unless you pick Scott Stevens, no one was more important to the Devils success than Brodeur. In 2012, he wins the Smythe if the Devils win - at 40.



Alright, my picks would be Joe Nieuwendyk for starters. The second he got into the HHOF on his second try he became overrated. He gets in before Adam Oates and that just wasn't right. He gets in the same year as Gilmour who had to wait several years. Nieuwendyk was a fine player, but he was never a star. You wouldn't win if he was your top center. You could win if he was your 2nd line center though. He was a complementary player. Nothing wrong with that, but there are complementary players that deserve the HHOF on their own merits (Francis, Delvecchio, Kurri, Lemaire). Nieuwendyk does have a lot of nice attributes. He was good on faceoffs, he was defensively sound, he was a guy you wanted on your team to fill any role, but what bothers me about him is that he lacked elite seasons. I don't think there was a single time he was a top 10 player. He finished as high as 15th in scoring in one year and I believe that was the shortened 1995 season. That's just not a HHOF player. He got in on the merits that he won a Cup with three different teams. That isn't enough.

Dave Andreychuk is another one. Alright, the guy scored over 600 goals. That's good, nothing wrong with that. But he wasn't good in the postseason, wasn't a stud defensively and didn't bring a whole lot to the table other than scoring goals. Never cracked 100 points in a season in a higher scoring era. Didn't age well at all. But the second we saw him raise the Cup over his head as captain in 2004 one thing led to another and he all of the sudden became a HHOF caliber player. Gartner scored 700 goals but didn't hang around long like Andreychuk to pad his stats. To put it in perspective, Andreychuk never had a 30 goal season after 1994. He is predominantly remembered as a goal scorer and nothing much else and he finished just 4th, and 9th in goals. Never even a 2nd team all-star at the left wing position. Well below a PPG in his career with 0.82. Not to mention people seem to give him the Nieuwendyk treatment and talk about him as if he legitimately belongs. The media loves these guys, too much.

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04-13-2013, 01:06 PM
  #103
vadim sharifijanov
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This is a bit exaggerated. Was he a tad bit overrated? Sure, but your assessment is very inaccurate. At his absolute peak, Fedorov was Datsyuk with much more speed and offensive skill.

I think over the last 25 years, his 1993-94 season is probably among the top 10 best. Scoring 120 Pts while winning the Hart and Selke is exceptional and one for the record books.

Fedorov is a top 60-40 player all-time but I do agree that he is overrated when some seem to think that he was a better player than Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Lindros, Selanne, Bure or Karyia.

As a whole Fedorov had a great career and is a Hall of Famer but he was far too inconsistent in his career and his playoff resume is overrated considering he played on some of the strongest and deepest teams of the 90's and yet he falls short of being a PPG player. He was also guilty of being lazy more times than not. He was the kind of player that when on was a top 5 player but he also always left you wanting more and thinking "what could have been?".

At his best he was the most skilled Russian player probably of all-time (this was very short lived though as he was rather average outside of his few PPG season) but at his worst which was more common unfortunately, he was a highly skilled, good two-way 2nd line center.
jagr, sakic, and lindros, well yeah fedorov doesn't touch any of those guys. i will say absolutely nothing about forsberg and selanne for obvious reasons.

but in what has either kariya or bure (my favourite player) ever done anything to approach fedorov, peak, prime, or career?

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04-13-2013, 01:11 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
jagr, sakic, and lindros, well yeah fedorov doesn't touch any of those guys. i will say absolutely nothing about forsberg and selanne for obvious reasons.

but in what has either kariya or bure (my favourite player) ever done anything to approach fedorov, peak, prime, or career?
At one point in the game, Karyia was in the conversation for the title of "world's best player".

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The 1980s were a simple time, a decade when i's, not corns, were dotted, when a young Oakland A's slugger ( Jose Canseco, not Mark McGwire) looked to be the next Babe Ruth, and when a total of eight goals in an NHL game was the norm, not the piddling 5.49 per game so far this season. Between 1980-81 and 1988-89 a dozen players had seasons in which they amassed 150 or more points; in the 1990s, when the league imported even more slick forwards from Europe and immediately forgot how to use them, only three players reached that plateau. The rugged player of the '80s was transformed into the system drone of the '90s, which is why Pittsburgh Penguins right wing Jaromir Jagr, the most self-reliant player in hockey, is the game's biggest anomaly.

With 32 goals and 39 assists in 39 games through Sunday, Jagr was close to a 150-point pace and was leading the league in both categories, something not achieved outright since Wayne Gretzky did it 13 years ago. Night after night Jagr finds not only open ice but also the inherent joy of his sport. He dances and dazzles, getting seven points against the hapless New York Islanders in one game, derailing the powerful Detroit Red Wings with a goal and an assist in the next, and, in the match after that, twisting New Jersey Devils checker Claude Lemieux into a pretzel by putting the puck through Lemieux's legs at the Penguins' blue line and creating a three-on-two. Jagr, with sturdy haunches that make him all but impossible to bump off the puck, puts on That '80s Show for almost 82 games a season. He's setting hockey back more than 10 years.

"The game in the 1980s was played with the puck," Toronto Maple Leafs goalie Glenn Healy says. "In the '90s it became a game of often willingly losing possession, of dumping the puck in and moving the battle to other areas, such as behind the net and in the corners. Jagr is an '80s player because he holds on to the puck and tries to make plays. He won't give it up until there is absolutely no other play, which isn't often, because he has the ability to make something out of nothing, even a one-on-three. As a goalie you're always aware of Jagr's presence on the ice."

Jagr's scoring rampage in an era of constipated hockey has ended debate about who is the NHL's best player. "With no disrespect to the other guys," says New Jersey defenseman Ken Daneyko, a 15-year veteran, "you've got [Eric] Lindros, [Paul] Kariya, [Teemu] Selanne and [Peter] Forsberg here, and Jagr head and shoulders above them, up there." That assessment was implicitly endorsed by Gretzky last April when he blessed Jagr with a private word during the Great One's retirement ceremony. "Maybe that's why I play good right now," Jagr said last week, his face crinkling in merriment as he sat at his locker. "I don't want to make Wayne a liar."

Jagr doesn't demur on the subject of his stature, and he offers no disclaimers about good bounces or lucky breaks or other locker room lies. If he's not an aw-shucks guy, neither is he chest-thumpingly vain. At almost 28 years of age, with three scoring titles and a Hart Trophy behind him, he has been freed from polite pretense. "I got something," says Jagr, whose career 1.33 points-per-game average ranks fifth among players with at least 500 games.
As you see, Karyia was in that conversation. Bure was very one-dimensional but was an electrifying goal scorer who was probably the only player who was even more exciting to watch than Jagr was.

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04-13-2013, 01:15 PM
  #105
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Forsberg & Fedorov

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04-13-2013, 02:26 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
This is a bit exaggerated. Was he a tad bit overrated? Sure, but your assessment is very inaccurate. At his absolute peak, Fedorov was Datsyuk with much more speed and offensive skill.
For one season, he was Datsyuk with more speed and skill.

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I think over the last 25 years, his 1993-94 season is probably among the top 10 best. Scoring 120 Pts while winning the Hart and Selke is exceptional and one for the record books.
No, it was not. He benefitted from a ton of top players being injured that year and, of course, Doug Gilmour did the exact same thing the year before. No Hart trophy, though? Well, Fedorov wasn't getting one against Mario in full beat-cancer-then-destroy-the-league mode, either.

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Fedorov is a top 60-40 player all-time
I have yet to see one viable argument for this idea that doesn't rely on making excuses for Fedorov or the always popular, 'you just don't understand how great he was'. He simply is NOT that calibre.

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but I do agree that he is overrated when some seem to think that he was a better player than Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Lindros, Selanne, Bure or Karyia
The fact that he is even in that conversation is proof that he is wildly overrrated. (Although, personally, I'd probably give him the edge over Kariya)

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As a whole Fedorov had a great career and is a Hall of Famer but he was far too inconsistent in his career and his playoff resume is overrated considering he played on some of the strongest and deepest teams of the 90's and yet he falls short of being a PPG player. He was also guilty of being lazy more times than not. He was the kind of player that when on was a top 5 player but he also always left you wanting more and thinking "what could have been?".
I agree with most of this. I think a lot of people fall in love with the 'mystique' of what could have been with this big, smooth-skating, enigmatic player. That's not enough to put you into the top 100 all-time.

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At his best he was the most skilled Russian player probably of all-time (this was very short lived though as he was rather average outside of his few PPG season) but at his worst which was more common unfortunately, he was a highly skilled, good two-way 2nd line center.
Good analysis. But a 2nd-line center should not be in the conversation as most complete player ever/more valuable in the playoffs than Lemieux/etc that is actually been posted on this board about Sergei 'Rod Brind'Amour with a Hart' Fedorov.

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04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
  #107
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Either "generational talent" karrllssoon is or mike green is the most underated

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04-13-2013, 05:20 PM
  #108
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People who think Fedorov and Datsyuk are overrated simply have their noses buried in stats and see nothing else. They just don't see the game behind the numbers. Hockey is not track-and-field, where only numbers matter. In hockey you have to look at the whole thing. Two of the criteria for me that are not defined by stats are "helping your team" and "doing things that nobody else can do" (especially on the consistent basis, which is where players like Kovalev fail). Both 91 and 13 belong squarely on top.

I'm not even touching their artistic value. Without Fedorov and Datsyuk hockey would lose a large chunk of its spectator appeal.

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I have yet to see one viable argument for this idea that doesn't rely on making excuses for Fedorov or the always popular, 'you just don't understand how great he was'. He simply is NOT that calibre.
He simply was, and you just don't. Too bad.
Fedorov > Selanne (peak, prime, and face-to-face, not career)
Fedorov > Lindros (peak, career, and face-to-face, not prime)
Fedorov >> Kariya (peak, career, and face-to-face, not prime)


Last edited by Sentinel: 04-13-2013 at 09:43 PM.
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04-13-2013, 07:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
People who think Fedorov and Datsyuk are overrated simply have their noses buried in stats and see nothing else. Hockey is not track-and-field, where only numbers matter. In hockey you have to look at the whole thing. Two of the criteria for me that is not defined by stats are "helping your team" and "doing things that nobody else can do" (especially on the consistent basis, which is where players like Kovalev fail). Both 91 and 13 belong squarely on top.

I'm not even touching their artistic value. Without Fedorov and Datsyuk hockey would lose a large chunk of its spectator appeal.


He simply was, and you just don't. Too bad.
Fedorov > Selanne (peak, prime, and face-to-face, not career)
Fedorov > Lindros (peak, career, and face-to-face, not prime)
Fedorov >> Kariya (peak, career, and face-to-face, not prime)
Pretty much sums it up perfectly.

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04-13-2013, 09:14 PM
  #110
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Jari Kurri....A lot of guys could have a great career playing alongside Gretzky.

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04-13-2013, 10:29 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
For one season, he was Datsyuk with more speed and skill.
No; for several seasons. He peaked higher offensively than Datsyuk, was better defensively than Datsyuk, and he was much faster than Datsyuk. Other than that, they were pretty similar. Datsyuk is probably a better playmaker, but Fedorov was definitely the better goal scorer and had a 100+mph shot.

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No, it was not. He benefitted from a ton of top players being injured that year and, of course, Doug Gilmour did the exact same thing the year before. No Hart trophy, though? Well, Fedorov wasn't getting one against Mario in full beat-cancer-then-destroy-the-league mode, either.
There's a big difference; Gilmour doesn't win his Selke if he doesn't have that big offensive season; and his big offensive seasonwas powered by the power play. His ES numbers were pretty normal compared to his other seasons, where he received maybe a handful of Selke votes. Fedorov went into the 93-94 season having finished 2nd and then 4th in Selke voting the previous two years, and it was only his fourth season. In his second-place finish, he actually received the MOST first-place votes.

Fedorov had a better defensive season and a more "true" defensive pedigree (rather than getting a Selke for being a two-way player like Gilmour did). Also, if you remove Lemieux, LaFontaine wins the Hart. Why? Because he has 148 points and the Art Ross trophy. Only five players (Esposito, Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, and Nicholls) had eclipsed that mark as of 1992-93; Jagr would make it six in 1995-96.

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I have yet to see one viable argument for this idea that doesn't rely on making excuses for Fedorov or the always popular, 'you just don't understand how great he was'. He simply is NOT that calibre.
Where do you rank him, on an all-time players list? How about a top centers list? Just ballpark it. Among the guys who slot into "his era" (Fedorov, Forsberg, Lindros, Modano, Sakic, Sundin, Nieuwendyk) he's definitely top-three. If we expand it and include players fro the 80s who he played a significant amount against (Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Messier, Stastny, Hawerchuk, etc.) He's still a top seven or eight. And I've now covered basically 20% of hockey history, much of which doesn't have many players; based on number of teams and total years, it includes about 1/3 of all seasons for first-line centers. Which means Fedorov "should" be within the top 20-25 centers of all-time, right? Generally, wingers and defensemen usually are ranked about in equal numbers with centers. Usually you only see a handful of goalies; maybe one for every 11-12 skaters. So If Fedorov is the #20 center, that logically puts him somewhere between #20 and #60 all-time as a player. Closer to the latter, of course.

[quote]The fact that he is even in that conversation is proof that he is wildly overrrated. (Although, personally, I'd probably give him the edge over Kariya)



I agree with most of this. I think a lot of people fall in love with the 'mystique' of what could have been with this big, smooth-skating, enigmatic player. That's not enough to put you into the top 100 all-time.



Quote:
Good analysis. But a 2nd-line center should not be in the conversation as most complete player ever/more valuable in the playoffs than Lemieux/etc that is actually been posted on this board about Sergei 'Rod Brind'Amour with a Hart' Fedorov.
The "Fedorov=Brind'Amour" arguments that people make are nonsensical. Yes, Brind'Amour won the Selke late in his career. But he was only twice given credit for it in his prime; in his peak season (1993-94, when he got a mere handful of votes) and 1997-98 (another handful). He never had a significant finish until his wins, which literally came out of nowhere and IMHO were "he's been decent defensively for a while and deserves to win something in his career" awards. Kind of like Ted Kennedy's Hart trophy.

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Jari Kurri....A lot of guys could have a great career playing alongside Gretzky.
Yep. Not many could have had Kurri's career though.

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04-13-2013, 10:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
People who think Fedorov and Datsyuk are overrated simply have their noses buried in stats and see nothing else. They just don't see the game behind the numbers. Hockey is not track-and-field, where only numbers matter. In hockey you have to look at the whole thing. Two of the criteria for me that are not defined by stats are "helping your team" and "doing things that nobody else can do" (especially on the consistent basis, which is where players like Kovalev fail). Both 91 and 13 belong squarely on top.

I'm not even touching their artistic value. Without Fedorov and Datsyuk hockey would lose a large chunk of its spectator appeal.


He simply was, and you just don't. Too bad.
Fedorov > Selanne (peak, prime, and face-to-face, not career)
Fedorov > Lindros (peak, career, and face-to-face, not prime)
Fedorov >> Kariya (peak, career, and face-to-face, not prime)
See my, 'you just don't understand how great he was' point.

Nothing is surer proof you're right than when the response is this.

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04-13-2013, 11:01 PM
  #113
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Where do you rank him, on an all-time players list? How about a top centers list? Just ballpark it. Among the guys who slot into "his era" (Fedorov, Forsberg, Lindros, Modano, Sakic, Sundin, Nieuwendyk) he's definitely top-three. If we expand it and include players fro the 80s who he played a significant amount against (Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Messier, Stastny, Hawerchuk, etc.) He's still a top seven or eight. And I've now covered basically 20% of hockey history, much of which doesn't have many players; based on number of teams and total years, it includes about 1/3 of all seasons for first-line centers. Which means Fedorov "should" be within the top 20-25 centers of all-time, right? Generally, wingers and defensemen usually are ranked about in equal numbers with centers. Usually you only see a handful of goalies; maybe one for every 11-12 skaters. So If Fedorov is the #20 center, that logically puts him somewhere between #20 and #60 all-time as a player. Closer to the latter, of course
There were alot of great centers over that time so I decided to look them up.

Here are the top scoring centers from 80-04 playoffs

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Most people would take Wayne, Messier, Sakic, Mario, Yzerman in a flash over Federov. Many would take Trotts and maybe even Forsberg and Francis. but after that it becomes really hard for anyone to pass Federov on career value IMO.

It would be surprising to see many have Federov below 25-30 on the all times Centers list when we do that project and some might have him in the 15-20 range with a decent argument too.

Espositio and Clarke are going to be higher on most lists but really if all things are equal which player would you want to build a team around over their careers? A strong case can be made for Federov IMO.

Espositio is one over rated guy as is Clarke, due to his 3 Harts, IMO.

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The "Fedorov=Brind'Amour" arguments that people make are nonsensical. Yes, Brind'Amour won the Selke late in his career. But he was only twice given credit for it in his prime; in his peak season (1993-94, when he got a mere handful of votes) and 1997-98 (another handful). He never had a significant finish until his wins, which literally came out of nowhere and IMHO were "he's been decent defensively for a while and deserves to win something in his career" awards. Kind of like Ted Kennedy's Hart trophy.
Anyone trying to say that Brind'Amour=Federov, in any sense of the terms equal really needs to give their head a shake, totally agree with you here.

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04-14-2013, 02:12 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
See my, 'you just don't understand how great he was' point.

Nothing is surer proof you're right than when the response is this.
I have also noticed that discussing about Fedorov is nearly impossible.

But in general I don't think Fedorov is overrated. He has few well worded fans in this forum who defend him to the death and they are very loud. But in general he is ranked just about right. (In the same level as Selanne/Kurri and few others.)

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04-14-2013, 02:33 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
but Fedorov was definitely the better goal scorer and had a 100+mph shot.
So did Al Iafrate but that doesn't make him an offensive juggernaut.

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04-14-2013, 09:30 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
See my, 'you just don't understand how great he was' point.

Nothing is surer proof you're right than when the response is this.
That's exactly what I said. You really just don't understand. If you can't look beyond the numbers, we just have to agree to disagree. No need to argue further.

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04-14-2013, 11:41 AM
  #117
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I would have to agree with Niedermayer at least being one of the more overrated players.

Never saw him play but for some reason I don't rank Phil Esposito as high as some. Maybe those of you who did see him can help me out there.

Also wondering about Ken Dryden and Tony Esposito. I never saw them either so it's more of an inquiry than a statement.

I also feel a lot of pre-WW2 players get too much credit some times when it comes to rankings on here. Same with players who never played NHL.

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04-14-2013, 11:56 AM
  #118
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That's exactly what I said. You really just don't understand. If you can't look beyond the numbers, we just have to agree to disagree. No need to argue further.
Please show me one instance where I made reference to numbers. One.

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04-14-2013, 12:30 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No; for several seasons. He peaked higher offensively than Datsyuk
He did?

Fedorov's Point Finishes: 2, 9
Datsyuk's Point Finishes: 4, 4

Fedorov's PPG Finishes: 4, 7, 9
Datsyuk's PPG Finishes: 8, 5

If that's a better peak, its a very, very slim edge there. And it basically boils down to ONE season, hardly 'several'.

And I don't want to hear any excuses about Fedorov playing defense, Fedorov playing with bad linemates, or any of the other junk that gets brought up in his defense. YOUR quote is, 'peaked higher offensively than Datsyuk [for several seasons]', now let's see you defend THAT point without trying to find a way to change the parameters of the discussion, which you have a habit of doing when you get caught.

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There's a big difference; Gilmour doesn't win his Selke if he doesn't have that big offensive season;
This is just something you like to say, but there's no fact to this. Gilmour was a solid defensive player throughout his career, and broke in as a checking center. I could just as easily say that Gilmour's win paved the way for high-scoring centers to start winning the Selke, ie: Fedorov.

Neither point is accurate or really says anything about either player.

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Fedorov went into the 93-94 season having finished 2nd and then 4th in Selke voting the previous two years, and it was only his fourth season. In his second-place finish, he actually received the MOST first-place votes.
So wait. . . Gilmour's first-place finishing in 1993 is not legitimate, but Fedorov's fourth-place finish is?

I also find it funny that, in your mind, the Selke voting before (Gilmour) and after (Francis) Fedorov's big season are suspect, but you keep running back to Selke voting as gospel to prove Fedorov's value.


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Also, if you remove Lemieux, LaFontaine wins the Hart. Why? Because he has 148 points and the Art Ross trophy. Only five players (Esposito, Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, and Nicholls) had eclipsed that mark as of 1992-93; Jagr would make it six in 1995-96.
Well, except that Gilmour actually did finish ahead of Lafontaine in Hart voting with 99 points to 52 that year. He was the clear runner-up, which is exactly where Fedorov would have been sitting too, compared to that monstrous Lemieux season.

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The "Fedorov=Brind'Amour" arguments that people make are nonsensical. Yes, Brind'Amour won the Selke late in his career. But he was only twice given credit for it in his prime; in his peak season (1993-94, when he got a mere handful of votes) and 1997-98 (another handful). He never had a significant finish until his wins, which literally came out of nowhere and IMHO were "he's been decent defensively for a while and deserves to win something in his career" awards. Kind of like Ted Kennedy's Hart trophy.
Again. Another player whose Selke win is suspect, while Fedorov's are again trotted out as gospel. Interesting.

I don't have time to get into a big, 'Fedorov vs Brind'Amour' thing but is shockingly close, and I predict that thread would, again, end in a lot of, 'you just don't understand how good Fedorov is' posts.

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04-14-2013, 12:39 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
There were alot of great centers over that time so I decided to look them up.

Here are the top scoring centers from 80-04 playoffs

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Most people would take Wayne, Messier, Sakic, Mario, Yzerman in a flash over Federov. Many would take Trotts and maybe even Forsberg and Francis. but after that it becomes really hard for anyone to pass Federov on career value IMO.

It would be surprising to see many have Federov below 25-30 on the all times Centers list when we do that project and some might have him in the 15-20 range with a decent argument too.

Espositio and Clarke are going to be higher on most lists but really if all things are equal which player would you want to build a team around over their careers? A strong case can be made for Federov IMO.

Espositio is one over rated guy as is Clarke, due to his 3 Harts, IMO.
You're kind of stretching this out a bit. I said top-three for "in his era" centers, meaning guys whose careers started within a couple of seasons of his own. Then I gave an expanded list where he's top 7/8 going back to 1980. Trottier and Clarke hit their primes in the 70s. While they both played in the 80s, they aren't in what would qualify for either of the groups I included. It's like saying Jagr is the best all-time winger of the post 2010 era, just because he played after 2010.

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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I have also noticed that discussing about Fedorov is nearly impossible.

But in general I don't think Fedorov is overrated. He has few well worded fans in this forum who defend him to the death and they are very loud. But in general he is ranked just about right. (In the same level as Selanne/Kurri and few others.)
I have Fedorov ranked around 20 spots ahead of Selanne (and four spots ahead of Kurri) among all-time forwards. All are in my top-100 players. I think anyone who tries to suggest that Fedorov was several tiers above the other two is out to lunch, but at the same time it is clear that he was the best of the three.

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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
So did Al Iafrate but that doesn't make him an offensive juggernaut.
I did say "and", didn't I? They implies that it was an additional quality he possessed.

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04-14-2013, 01:15 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post



I have Fedorov ranked around 20 spots ahead of Selanne (and four spots ahead of Kurri) among all-time forwards. All are in my top-100 players. I think anyone who tries to suggest that Fedorov was several tiers above the other two is out to lunch, but at the same time it is clear that he was the best of the three.
By all means, feel free to have him around 20 spots ahead of Selanne. I have yet to see a definite arrgument for Fedorov ahead of Selanne or Kurri and believe me, i have read enough BS about two of them.

The thing is that not you, or anybody else have been able to make a bulletproof case for any of those guys ahead of one another.

So, by no means it is not clear.

But i believe that you believe it to be true. Still, overall Fedorov is not overrated. You overrate him, severely. Generally, Fedorov is ranked correctly. Around Kurri, Selanne and few others.

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04-14-2013, 01:21 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
He did?

Fedorov's Point Finishes: 2, 9
Datsyuk's Point Finishes: 4, 4

Fedorov's PPG Finishes: 4, 7, 9
Datsyuk's PPG Finishes: 8, 5
One of Datsyuk's 97 point seasons was playing on the left wing for 92-point center and should-have-been Selke winner (and first-team center) Henrik Zetterberg.

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If that's a better peak, its a very, very slim edge there. And it basically boils down to ONE season, hardly 'several'.

And I don't want to hear any excuses about Fedorov playing defense, Fedorov playing with bad linemates, or any of the other junk that gets brought up in his defense. YOUR quote is, 'peaked higher offensively than Datsyuk [for several seasons]', now let's see you defend THAT point without trying to find a way to change the parameters of the discussion, which you have a habit of doing when you get caught.
So what you're saying is that Datsyuk playing a 40-goal scorer like Hossa (Fedorov never played with a 40-goal scorer, not even once), or a guy like Zetterberg who came close to or matched his production while playing better defense (Selke be damned).

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This is just something you like to say, but there's no fact to this. Gilmour was a solid defensive player throughout his career
Which I acknowledged. I simply stated that he wasn't considered ELITE outside of his offensive peak, which was PP-driven.

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I could just as easily say that Gilmour's win paved the way for high-scoring centers to start winning the Selke, ie: Fedorov.
Fedorov was a Selke finalist the year before Gilmour won, and finished fourth the year Gilmour won. He was only in his fourth season when he nabbed his first win and in his sixth when he got his second. In his first six seasons, he had five consecutive seasons of top-four finishes (with three top-twos and two wins) and never did NOT receive at least one vote. Fedorov's late-90s Selke slump was driven by the fact that his offense dropped off after his mid-90s peak; he was playing equal if not better defense. Another factor is the "media story" of Yzerman's defense. The media tends not to vote for two guys from one team, and if they'd rather vote for Yzerman when both are playing among the best, Fedorov doesn't get a vote. Even if he's the best or among the best.

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So wait. . . Gilmour's first-place finishing in 1993 is not legitimate, but Fedorov's fourth-place finish is?
Until he was injured in the 1993 playoff series between Toronto and Detroit, Steve Yzerman was the best player; despite the fact that Toronto was doing their best to get Gilmour out against him. Why was Toronto trying to get Gilmour against Yzerman? Two reasons. First, they wanted to shut down Yzerman. Second, they wanted to keep Gilmour AWAY from Fedorov, who was completely shutting down the Gilmour line. Has Yzerman not been injured (Game 3, IIRC), Detroit advances.

Quote:
I also find it funny that, in your mind, the Selke voting before (Gilmour) and after (Francis) Fedorov's big season are suspect, but you keep running back to Selke voting as gospel to prove Fedorov's value.
Francis was completely legitimate. He was my Selke pick before they even announced the nominees. He should have probably been nominated for more Selkes than he was.

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Well, except that Gilmour actually did finish ahead of Lafontaine in Hart voting with 99 points to 52 that year. He was the clear runner-up, which is exactly where Fedorov would have been sitting too, compared to that monstrous Lemieux season.
Yes, but if Lemieux is REMOVED the voters would have given LaFontaine much more support because of how massive his season was. Again; LaFontaine scored 148 points. The only player to ever do that without the assistance of one of the "big four" was Steve Yzerman four years prior. He won the Pearson ahead of Lemieux (199 points, much better offensive support) and Gretzky (168 points, only beat teammate/PP linemate Bernie Nicholls by 18 points).

Quote:
Again. Another player whose Selke win is suspect, while Fedorov's are again trotted out as gospel. Interesting.
Brind'Amour was very good defensively late in his career. But he was not as good as Lehtinen. Nobody was, save for a few stellar individual years. Jere Lehtinen should have five Selkes from 1998 to 2007, John Madden two, and Craig Conroy and Steve Yzerman one apiece. Lehtinen was so good that just by playing on the same line Mike Modano looked like he deserved to be a Selke finalist.

Quote:
I don't have time to get into a big, 'Fedorov vs Brind'Amour' thing but is shockingly close, and I predict that thread would, again, end in a lot of, 'you just don't understand how good Fedorov is' posts.
Fedorov has 31 more goals and five fewer points in 236 fewer games. He has three seasons by adjusted points that beat Brind'Amour's peak offensive season; two of which he won the Selke in. He has another that's one adjusted point behind where he was fourth in Selke voting. Surprisingly, those are the only four seasons that beat Brind'Amour's second Selke season on adjusted points. Their careers almost directly overlap, with Brind'Amour starting a year earlier and retiring (from the NHL) a year later. Fedorov is 19% better in GPG, 14% better in APG, and 18% better in PPG.

And that's just considering the regular season. In 24 more playoff games, Fedorov scored an additional goal and an additional SIXTY-FOUR assists. For 65 more points in 24 playoff games.

Both players played plenty, so it's not like it's a small sample.

Fedorov was also one of the best playoff players of his era, playing elite defense and scoring about PPG (and even playing an entire series as a defenseman). Brind'Amour was... well... average.

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04-14-2013, 01:56 PM
  #123
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Espositio and Clarke are going to be higher on most lists but really if all things are equal which player would you want to build a team around over their careers? A strong case can be made for Federov IMO.
What's the case for Fedorov over Esposito or Clarke?

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So what you're saying is that Datsyuk playing a 40-goal scorer like Hossa (Fedorov never played with a 40-goal scorer, not even once), or a guy like Zetterberg who came close to or matched his production while playing better defense (Selke be damned).
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sheppard the RW on Fedorov's line for the majority of the 1993-94 season?


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 04-14-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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Old
04-14-2013, 02:16 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
What's the case for Fedorov over Esposito or Clarke?
I'd imagine it would have to be built on the idea of "Espo's stats are the rsult of Orr" combined with the whole "Espo only played half of the rink".

Or basically, to compare to modern HF arguments... "Orr was Tavares on defense, and Espo was Matt Moulson at center"

Personally, I'd put Fedorov a fair bit behind each (I think the "Espo is a product" argument is given far too much credit). I rank Esposito 7th and Clarke 9th among centers, with Fedorov 12th.

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04-14-2013, 02:20 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sheppard the RW on Fedorov's line for the majority of the 1993-94 season?
No; Fedorov played with Kozlov and Ciccarelli. Sheppard played with Primeau and Yzerman. Sheppard had played with Fedorov in previous seasons though. Part of what turned Sheppard into a 50g man that year is that Yzerman's neck injury limited his ability to shoot and score, so he had to rely more on his playmaking. Sheppard was the best pure goal man on the team; he had ridiculously good hands and shot (and was unbelievably slow). So Yzerman set him up, and he put it in the net. When he was traded (1995-96) he turned back into a 30-goal guy.

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