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Old
04-14-2013, 11:50 AM
  #301
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Just based on the stage of career, Del Zotto has to be worth a whole lot more than Girardi.

If you are going to deal a good defenseman for a scoring forward, you better make certain its the right one. Otherwise you have a Tyutin-Zherdev situation again. Which seemed like a no-brainer at the time.

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04-14-2013, 12:28 PM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Shea Webber's contract runs thru 2026, so for that reason alone, the following is probably not a good idea. However, that not withstanding, the following is interesting.

Webber is a 7.8m+ to 2026. Preds have space. Don't want that big a salary (they didn't offer, they had to match that #).

Weber to NY at 5m per cap max. Preds eat the balance every year, balance of contract. Ranger commitment to SW is 5m max.

To enable this Rangers will offer a CONDITIONAL pick, typically a 4th, FOR EACH AND EVERY YEAR of the balance of the SW contract, which each pick is conditional on
a) SW is available to play enough minutes in a season.
b) SW reaches certain high yet reasonable performance targets of excellence
If he has a career year, wins Norris, pick that (following) year increases 4th to third or second; if he has subpar year, pick diminishes to 5th or 6th; if he is injured or otherwise DNP, then there is no pick.
c) Rangers must honor this part of the deal whether they keep or trade SW for 6 years; however, after 6 years, this part of the deal is only in force if SW is retained by NYR. If Rangers trade SW after 6 years, this provision is cancelled.

We also get Preds 2013 1st.

In exchange for all that, NY coughs up Staal, Girardi + Stepan.

Pros: we avoid SW playing for a competitor and having that shot from the point do damage; acquire an all star D; net of paying SW a max of 5m per season actually is less cap than Staal, Girardi + Stepan, who will require increases; obtain a high 2013 pick; improve chances to entice Malkin.

We get use out of Richards this year, amnesty buy out, and we really have a better team to offer Malkin if he's looking in 2014, and the above clever juggling, + Richards #s will be downpayment on Malkin --- if he wants to come here.

Roster issues:
temporary C depth:
Richards, Broussard, Miller, Boyle. Boyle moved for potential or upgrade replaced w/cheaper like Haley or Lindberg,
Kreider could be an emergency C until guys like Nieves get here. Or, who knows, he's played the position and might take to it like a fish to water.

new D:
McD SW
MDZ Stralman
Gilroy McIlrath
Hamrlik/Eminger,
Boyle to Hawks, gets Olsen +, add, maybe gets Clendenning + Olsen


This one was for fun, unfortunately with that 2026 commitment of a baker's dozen 13 years; but if there is some work around, no penalty later club option buyout for cheap anytime after 9-10 seasons, then, like I say this would be interesting.
Shea Weber is good but not good enough to trade two of our three best dmen and our best center who could potentially be an all star in the coming years. No way no how. That is a terrible trade for the Rangers. Specially with the contract. Nashville would laugh all the way to the bank after riding themselves of that ridiculous contract and getting Stepan.

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04-14-2013, 01:50 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Shea Webber's contract runs thru 2026, so for that reason alone, the following is probably not a good idea. However, that not withstanding, the following is interesting.

Webber is a 7.8m+ to 2026. Preds have space. Don't want that big a salary (they didn't offer, they had to match that #).

Weber to NY at 5m per cap max. Preds eat the balance every year, balance of contract. Ranger commitment to SW is 5m max.

To enable this Rangers will offer a CONDITIONAL pick, typically a 4th, FOR EACH AND EVERY YEAR of the balance of the SW contract, which each pick is conditional on
a) SW is available to play enough minutes in a season.
b) SW reaches certain high yet reasonable performance targets of excellence
If he has a career year, wins Norris, pick that (following) year increases 4th to third or second; if he has subpar year, pick diminishes to 5th or 6th; if he is injured or otherwise DNP, then there is no pick.
c) Rangers must honor this part of the deal whether they keep or trade SW for 6 years; however, after 6 years, this part of the deal is only in force if SW is retained by NYR. If Rangers trade SW after 6 years, this provision is cancelled.

We also get Preds 2013 1st.

In exchange for all that, NY coughs up Staal, Girardi + Stepan.

Pros: we avoid SW playing for a competitor and having that shot from the point do damage; acquire an all star D; net of paying SW a max of 5m per season actually is less cap than Staal, Girardi + Stepan, who will require increases; obtain a high 2013 pick; improve chances to entice Malkin.

We get use out of Richards this year, amnesty buy out, and we really have a better team to offer Malkin if he's looking in 2014, and the above clever juggling, + Richards #s will be downpayment on Malkin --- if he wants to come here.

Roster issues:
temporary C depth:
Richards, Broussard, Miller, Boyle. Boyle moved for potential or upgrade replaced w/cheaper like Haley or Lindberg,
Kreider could be an emergency C until guys like Nieves get here. Or, who knows, he's played the position and might take to it like a fish to water.

new D:
McD SW
MDZ Stralman
Gilroy McIlrath
Hamrlik/Eminger,
Boyle to Hawks, gets Olsen +, add, maybe gets Clendenning + Olsen


This one was for fun, unfortunately with that 2026 commitment of a baker's dozen 13 years; but if there is some work around, no penalty later club option buyout for cheap anytime after 9-10 seasons, then, like I say this would be interesting.
Personally I think this is nuts. Rangers give up way too much. Not to mention I don't think your scenario would even fly with the NHL's legal department.

Here's a fantasy for you though--Staal to Philadelphia for Giroux. Straight up--nothing added on either side. Flyers get a defenseman who can stabilize their entire defense from the goal on out--something they've been missing since Pronger went away--the Rangers get an offensive guy who at least when he's on is one of the top 5 forwards in the league. Don't have to worry about Carolina poaching Staal a couple years from now. Probably the Flyers wouldn't do it but I think it would be very enticing for them--it's not just goal that is their Achilles now--it's their defense in general. They need a guy back there that can lead them.

Rangers will still need another RD--preferably a pmd but their LD is still strong with McDonagh, Del Zotto and Moore and with Skjei hopefully developing into another.

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Old
04-14-2013, 02:33 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by First Man In View Post
What's your obsession with Dylan Olsen Berny? Just wondering.
Bernie has no obsession w/Dylan Olsen.
He was a late first.
He comes from an organization w/good current track record on Ds.
No one has offered us more than Olsen + 4th for Boyle.

No sacred cows.
The minute you come up with a better credible offer approved by the other side's fan base for Boyle, that is the day I stop pushing Boyle for Olsen +.

But please acknowledge that is the best offer on the table.

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Old
04-14-2013, 02:39 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
Shea Weber is good but not good enough to trade two of our three best dmen and our best center who could potentially be an all star in the coming years. No way no how. That is a terrible trade for the Rangers. Specially with the contract. Nashville would laugh all the way to the bank after riding themselves of that ridiculous contract and getting Stepan.
You did read it carefully, esp. where I took pains to explain we would be coming out ahead in cap because Preds would be paying balance of salary and cap on Weber salary above $5mil.

Also you are aware that it is not JUST Weber, it is also the Preds 2013 1st.

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Old
04-14-2013, 02:47 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
...
Quote:
Personally I think this is nuts. Rangers give up way too much.
It's a free country, I respect your right to this opinion. In my defense, Weber, with Preds eating a chunk of the contract every year for the next dozen plus years, is not cheap. Add to that Preds #1 this year.

Wanna make an omelette, gotta break some eggs.

Quote:
Not to mention I don't think your scenario would even fly with the NHL's legal department.
I don't want to spend inordinate time, but it is a fair question.
Only really creative part is the eating of contract/cap, and I am under impression in current deal, that can be up to 50%. SW's annual deal is $7.8+m, so $2.8+m is a little over a third, well below that 50% threshhold.

Quote:
Here's a fantasy for you though--Staal to Philadelphia for Giroux. Straight up--nothing added on either side. Flyers get a defenseman who can stabilize their entire defense from the goal on out--something they've been missing since Pronger went away--the Rangers get an offensive guy who at least when he's on is one of the top 5 forwards in the league. Don't have to worry about Carolina poaching Staal a couple years from now. Probably the Flyers wouldn't do it but I think it would be very enticing for them--it's not just goal that is their Achilles now--it's their defense in general. They need a guy back there that can lead them.
Agree, Staal is a stud, but would rather have Giroux, agree Phila does not do it straight up.

[QUOTE]Rangers will still need another RD--preferably a pmd but their LD is still strong with McDonagh, Del Zotto and Moore and with Skjei hopefully developing into another.[QUOTE]
True


Last edited by bernmeister: 04-15-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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Old
04-14-2013, 02:57 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
You did read it carefully, esp. where I took pains to explain we would be coming out ahead in cap because Preds would be paying balance of salary and cap on Weber salary above $5mil.

Also you are aware that it is not JUST Weber, it is also the Preds 2013 1st.
Which is a gamble and not to mention what you propose is far fetched with the contract as well as would be downright stupid on the Preds part.

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Old
04-14-2013, 03:02 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
You did read it carefully, esp. where I took pains to explain we would be coming out ahead in cap because Preds would be paying balance of salary and cap on Weber salary above $5mil.

Also you are aware that it is not JUST Weber, it is also the Preds 2013 1st.
So Weber + 1st for Staal + Girardi + Stepan?

A top pair + a promising 2C for Weber + first is a an absurd overpayment.
It speaks to the fact that you put no thought whatsoever to how a trade 'd help a team win, you are in a perpetual game of trading assets.
Did NHL13 GM mode approve of this proposal?

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Old
04-14-2013, 03:05 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Roster issues:
temporary C depth:
Richards, Broussard, Miller, Boyle. Boyle moved for potential or upgrade replaced w/cheaper like Haley or Lindberg,
Kreider could be an emergency C until guys like Nieves get here. Or, who knows, he's played the position and might take to it like a fish to water.
Kreider as an emergency C? Sounds good, maybe he can be back up goalie too, you never know he might actually be good at it.

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Old
04-14-2013, 03:07 PM
  #310
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It's painfully obvious that this team needs another Stepan-like player, a 2C who might be able to be a 1C eventually. They don't need another D, especially not at the expense of Stepan. If they're going to move a valuable D-man it should be for a center. Anything else would be foolish IMO.

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04-14-2013, 04:45 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
So Weber + 1st for Staal + Girardi + Stepan?

A top pair + a promising 2C for Weber + first is a an absurd overpayment.
It speaks to the fact that you put no thought whatsoever to how a trade 'd help a team win, you are in a perpetual game of trading assets.
Did NHL13 GM mode approve of this proposal?
A top pair we can't afford to keep for Weber AT AN ONGOING REDUCED RATE.
Little fact you overlooked.
They subsidize the entire length of the contract.

Secondly, it is likely to be a decent 1st, not a late first.

As for your disparaging comment, either you think the deal is profitable overall in total circumstances or not. We disagree. Won't be first, won't be last time.

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04-14-2013, 04:51 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
Which is a gamble and not to mention what you propose is far fetched with the contract as well as would be downright stupid on the Preds part.
I issued disclaimer this idea is for speculation only based on length of contract and even if good most of the way, we could get stuck w/a broken down Weber on an expensive contract at the end.

I said OTHERWISE, this would not be bad.

As to stupid for Preds, they had no choice but to match. They did not want to pay this much for him. If they had enough reason to do a deal, they;d consider it.

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04-14-2013, 05:29 PM
  #313
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Staal + Girardi + Stepan + for Weber and a 1st?

Where do people come up with this stuff?

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04-14-2013, 05:42 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Staal + Girardi + Stepan + for Weber and a 1st?

Where do people come up with this stuff?
I would say NHL 13, but I don't think that's a normal trade in the game either.

Lolz our top 2 centers would be an old Beaver and Brassard.

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04-14-2013, 05:47 PM
  #315
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If we had AA, I'd do that trade.

But C is probably our weakest position, so nope.

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04-14-2013, 06:11 PM
  #316
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In my opinion, goalie is the most important position in the current NHL followed closely by center. I would not even think about trading Stepan at this point unless it was a steal for another, better center on an equally nice deal. He's all this team has in terms of top 6 centers and they drafted him. Trading him and Staal-Girardi for Weber is a bad, bad idea in my eyes. I'd rather have Staal and Girardi and at least one competent top 6 center than have Weber and absolutely nothing of any value up the middle. The gap between Staal and Weber isn't nearly as big as the gap between Stepan and whatever poor soul would be looked at to provide consistent scoring as a top 6 center.

Again, the team needs another player like Stepan, a borderline 1/2 C. Getting that would make the roster pretty strong all around IMO, especially with the kids in the pipeline. The propose Weber trade would open some serious holes, both at center and at the bottom of the D.

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04-15-2013, 08:28 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
In my opinion, goalie is the most important position in the current NHL followed closely by center. I would not even think about trading Stepan at this point unless it was a steal for another, better center on an equally nice deal. He's all this team has in terms of top 6 centers and they drafted him. Trading him and Staal-Girardi for Weber is a bad, bad idea in my eyes. I'd rather have Staal and Girardi and at least one competent top 6 center than have Weber and absolutely nothing of any value up the middle. The gap between Staal and Weber isn't nearly as big as the gap between Stepan and whatever poor soul would be looked at to provide consistent scoring as a top 6 center.

Again, the team needs another player like Stepan, a borderline 1/2 C. Getting that would make the roster pretty strong all around IMO, especially with the kids in the pipeline. The propose Weber trade would open some serious holes, both at center and at the bottom of the D.
One more time: weber is NOT a proposal, see disclaimer, because of risk we get stuck with him old and broken down in under decade.

I invited comment and I thank all, even negative comment.
Support freedom of speech, competition of ideas.
Coupla responses...

ALL factors not being viewed here.
The non proposal scenario moves 3 guys all due for raises currently making ballpark current Weber $$, then goes one further by requiring Preds cap Weber for us at a $5mil max per year. For the entire length of the contract. That is obviously huge --- but ignored.

I don't think the 2013 Nashville 1st needs be sacrificed for a need, but it exists and can cover that contingency.

I did err in forgetting Moore, so our D is of course less, but still:
McD - Weber
MDZ - Stralman
Moore - McIlrath

Not counting trade addition
Hamrlik/Eminger/Gilroy hold the fort reserve depth Noreau here in 2 years.

As to C, not counting Boyle (who we may trade for upgrade/pick replenishment):

Richards --- let's get that year out of him/want to keep this open on a platter for Malkin after next year, if he doesn't come you have enough assets for plan B
Brassard --- so far so good
Miller --- uneven this year, has demonstrated enough tools, will be fine
Haley/Powe --- Haley has shown some energy in limited duty; deserves 4th line minutes
Lindberg --- Oscar's play this year earns shot next year, pushes Haley/Powe at min and maybe Miller also.

As an emergency at C: Kreider, yes Kreider.
They are trying to develop him at W, fine. But he has amateur experience at it, more importantly he has high speed to exploit open ice. Not saying should give up W. Just saying this is something that can be tried, on a limited basis, for a limited need.

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Old
04-15-2013, 09:37 AM
  #318
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The Rangers tried to sign Callahan to a contract longer than 3 years in 2011 but they couldn't find the right number. CBA was expiring. Cap could drop. Callahan will have many suitors if he is on the free agent market. Same with Girardi. Maybe they take less to stay here but not much less. The last year of Callahan's contract has a $4.825M salary. Its like his next contract will pick up from there. Lou gave Zajac so much money. Its drives up the price.

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04-15-2013, 10:47 AM
  #319
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Edmonton fired Steve Tambellini and replaced him with Craig MacTavish. Scott Howson will have a role in the Oilers front office. Howson joined Edmonton as a pro scout after losing his job in Columbus. MacT spent a lot of time scouting the Rangers approaching the deadline. Howson is big DZ guy. The Oilers need a D. The Rangers need a top young forward.

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04-15-2013, 11:25 AM
  #320
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Howson was also AGM in Edmonton and GM of the Oilers' farm team before being in Columbus. He has a relationship with Sather that comes from well before the Nash discussions.

Of course, so does MacTavish. I find the Tambellini firing to be odd. The team in pretty clearly in a transition year this season. They aren't the worst team in the league anymore, but they aren't a playoff team yet either. There was still improvement. Who knows what politicking went on behind the scenes. Tambellini did fire MacT as coach, so there might be some bad blood there and MacT might've been lobbying for Tambellini's job.

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04-15-2013, 11:38 AM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Edmonton fired Steve Tambellini and replaced him with Craig MacTavish. Scott Howson will have a role in the Oilers front office. Howson joined Edmonton as a pro scout after losing his job in Columbus. MacT spent a lot of time scouting the Rangers approaching the deadline. Howson is big DZ guy. The Oilers need a D. The Rangers need a top young forward.
Eh, Idk if replacing Tambo with Mac T means that they're going to shop a young piece for a proven defender. Seems more like Lowe threw some red meat at the fan base to keep them busy for a while.

Plus, I can't imagine how we'd absorb one of those Hall or Eberle contracts and RNH is likely not moving. That leaves Yakupov and Gagner as the two "top young forwards" available, and I wouldn't Del Zotto for Gagner. Del Zotto for Yakupov? Can't see Edmonton doing it.

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04-15-2013, 11:51 AM
  #322
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From: @cotsonika
Sent: Apr 15, 2013 12:49p

MacTavish: "Make no mistake, we're going to do bold things."

sent via web
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/cotsonika/status/323840540049289216

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04-15-2013, 11:52 AM
  #323
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From: @cotsonika
Sent: Apr 15, 2013 12:48p

MacTavish calls himself an "impatient" guy, says bold moves and exposure to risk are needed.

sent via web
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/cotsonika/status/323840248394158080

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04-15-2013, 11:54 AM
  #324
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From: @LouisJean_TVA
Sent: Apr 15, 2013 12:51p

MacTavish making it seem like he will shake things up in Edmonton as the new GM. What will he do? Would he trade top end talent/picks?

sent via web
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04-15-2013, 11:57 AM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Edmonton fired Steve Tambellini and replaced him with Craig MacTavish. Scott Howson will have a role in the Oilers front office. Howson joined Edmonton as a pro scout after losing his job in Columbus. MacT spent a lot of time scouting the Rangers approaching the deadline. Howson is big DZ guy. The Oilers need a D. The Rangers need a top young forward.
Del Zotto, Girardi (a L-R pair), Boyle, Andersson, Klassen, Columbus 3rd
for
Yak, Oilers 1st, Klefbom, Marancin, Gernat, Pitlick

The DZ Howson craves. Real 1b D on top, Boyle for pivot depth/defense on bottom 6, Andersson a solid prospect; Klassen, one time bust somebody in some post said was half decent chance to make bottom 6 somewhere, or to that effect; a third

Yak, a first overall for that top young F you specify; 1st this year; three really nice tall, mobile D prospects not far away; Pitlick a speedy C who could compete for 4th C soon.

Then do Staal + NY 2013 2nd + Eminger to Carolina
for
Canes 2013 1st + Justin Faulk + Jamie McBain

Carolina gets Staal unification, we get another 1st and two more D pieces

Rangers D
Ls Rs
McDonagh Faulk
Moore McBain
Marancin Stralman
Gernat McIlrath
Gilroy

Our D is younger, we moved contracts for more ELCs and we have 2 picks and a lefty sniper to boot (even though he plays RW)

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