HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Article about our centers futures.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-14-2013, 01:19 PM
  #176
Garbs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Garbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,807
vCash: 500
Couturier.

__________________
Garbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 01:49 PM
  #177
dimi78
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
That doesn't ring true at all. My point was that a first line is rarely made up of three high offence players on strong teams. Especially on teams who spread their offence around like the Leafs. We have a balanced attack, with two (possibly three if Grabo recovers) very skilled lines.
Bozak statistically is not only a top 6 producer, he's (admittedly lower end) top line.
We need to get over this belief that every single player needs to be the best in the league at his position to be useful. It simply isn't realistic.
Not that your wrong per say but the issue with Bozak on the first line is when Kessel is having a tough game he doesn't provide much help in these cases and the line gets completely shut down.

I'm really disappointed with Bozak cause I believe he's better than this. So much talk about Grabovski having tunnel vision Bozak suffers the same thing or even worst cause the only player he looks for is Kessel rather he's covered or not and that right there takes away from his effectiveness to produce points. He doesn't look for his other winger almost at all or even the D men in the play or show some gumption to take the puck to the net himself are the 3 main reason why his point production is low.

Every time Bozak these past years has played without Kessel it's like he's a different player the player that I believe there's no reason at all for him to have tunnel vision towards Kessel. He actually shows more confidence with the puck in making things happen showing that there's more to his game when he's not constantly looking for Kessel the moment he touches the puck. If he could bring that game that he has when Kessel isn't on his line to when Kessel is I would have no problem re-signing him long term.

dimi78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 01:57 PM
  #178
LEAFSIN4
Registered User
 
LEAFSIN4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose's Mullet View Post
Apologies if this has been brought up before.

How willing would you guys be to pull the trigger on a trade that brings Matt Duchene to Toronto? Who would you be willing to give up (if you're willing to make a trade for him in the first place) to get him? What makes sense? I personally think he'd fit this team like a glove.
I would trade Reilly, Frattin, 1st for Duchene.

LEAFSIN4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 05:15 PM
  #179
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimi78 View Post
Not that your wrong per say but the issue with Bozak on the first line is when Kessel is having a tough game he doesn't provide much help in these cases and the line gets completely shut down.

I'm really disappointed with Bozak cause I believe he's better than this. So much talk about Grabovski having tunnel vision Bozak suffers the same thing or even worst cause the only player he looks for is Kessel rather he's covered or not and that right there takes away from his effectiveness to produce points. He doesn't look for his other winger almost at all or even the D men in the play or show some gumption to take the puck to the net himself are the 3 main reason why his point production is low.

Every time Bozak these past years has played without Kessel it's like he's a different player the player that I believe there's no reason at all for him to have tunnel vision towards Kessel. He actually shows more confidence with the puck in making things happen showing that there's more to his game when he's not constantly looking for Kessel the moment he touches the puck. If he could bring that game that he has when Kessel isn't on his line to when Kessel is I would have no problem re-signing him long term.
I would say most players who have played with Kessel look for Kessel. He's the go to guy on the line. Do you think Lupul is looking for Bozak? JVR? They're all looking for Kessel. If anything, I wish Bozak would shoot more. This year he has increased it a bit and his points show it.

And Bozak has looked fine when not with Kessel. Obviously not as offensive, but realistically you can expect an offensive letdown when on the third line. He's still solid positionally and plays a 200 foot game. He also battles for the puck.

At the end of the day, the point remains that contrary to Leaf Nation folklore, he is not out of place on that line. He contributes as a top liner should and would easily be worth 4 plus on the open market.

Could he be upgraded? Absolutely. But how many teams have three potential PPG players on the top line, plus one on their second line?

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 05:18 PM
  #180
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I would take Bozak over Weiss, if Weiss is getting 5M per, then Bozak is worth 5.5M, but if we buy out Grabo, maybe Bozak takes a hometown discount and stays for 4.77 for 5.

The Bozak under RC and this year is better than Weiss, and he is younger too.
Yea, because last years 47 points, or this years 52 points pace, is clearly better than Weiss who's consistently put up 50+ points on a crappy team with poor linemates. Weiss isn't old at 30... and it's not like Bozak is significantly younger at 27.

And as has been said already - they're very different players. Weiss is without a doubt a top 6 forward, and his history backs that up. Bozak isn't. He's a boarder line 2nd line center, who's better suited as a 3rd line center.

You should listen to your fellow Leaf fans when they all say he isn't worth more than 3.5/4.0m. As for Weiss... just watch this summer when he gets 5.5-6.0m on a 5-6 year deal.

__________________
"It’s not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, it’s as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."
Riptide is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 05:20 PM
  #181
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Yea, because last years 47 points, or this years 52 points pace, is clearly better than Weiss who's consistently put up 50+ points on a crappy team with poor linemates. Weiss isn't old at 30... and it's not like Bozak is significantly younger at 27.

And as has been said already - they're very different players. Weiss is without a doubt a top 6 forward, and his history backs that up. Bozak isn't. He's a boarder line 2nd line center, who's better suited as a 3rd line center.

You should listen to your fellow Leaf fans when they all say he isn't worth more than 3.5/4.0m. As for Weiss... just watch this summer when he gets 5.5-6.0m on a 5-6 year deal.
In what way is Bozak not a top 6 forward? I'm all ears.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 05:50 PM
  #182
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,144
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Yea, because last years 47 points, or this years 52 points pace, is clearly better than Weiss who's consistently put up 50+ points on a crappy team with poor linemates. Weiss isn't old at 30... and it's not like Bozak is significantly younger at 27.

And as has been said already - they're very different players. Weiss is without a doubt a top 6 forward, and his history backs that up. Bozak isn't. He's a boarder line 2nd line center, who's better suited as a 3rd line center.

You should listen to your fellow Leaf fans when they all say he isn't worth more than 3.5/4.0m. As for Weiss... just watch this summer when he gets 5.5-6.0m on a 5-6 year deal.
I was interested in Weiss earlier this year, but that was until Bozak took a step fwd this year. I would rather have a guy proven with Lupul, Kessel, and JVR than bring in a guy that may have chemistry with our young team, who may also be on the decline of his career.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 05:58 PM
  #183
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
In what way is Bozak not a top 6 forward? I'm all ears.
He's a boarder line #2C - at best. And that's only if he makes some significant improvements during his next contract. You really want to spend 5.5m (like someone above suggested) on him? He's had 1 good season... and scored a whopping 47 points. While the two players he was playing with both played at over a point per game pace. His best quality is the fact that he's good on the draw - that's it.

Riptide is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 05:59 PM
  #184
Guy Boucher
Registered User
 
Guy Boucher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,314
vCash: 500
WE’VE SEEN THE WHOLE BOZAK STORY

A good analysis of our center situation. They can only pay Bozak on what he is right now. To think he will get better from what he is now flies in the face of all logic.

Guy Boucher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 06:02 PM
  #185
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,144
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
He's a boarder line #2C - at best. And that's only if he makes some significant improvements during his next contract. You really want to spend 5.5m (like someone above suggested) on him? He's had 1 good season... and scored a whopping 47 points. While the two players he was playing with both played at over a point per game pace. His best quality is the fact that he's good on the draw - that's it.
That was his second full NHL season, and he did it in 73 games. Bozak would have had 56 points over a 82 game season, and don't forget he was only put there when Lombardi, Steckel, and Connolly failed. He didn't play with 2 PPG players for the entire season, he played with Crabb for the last 10 games of the season and still had 8 points.

Not bad for a guy in his 2nd full NHL season I would say.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 06:09 PM
  #186
vince26
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 20
vCash: 500
dump bozak and grabovski waste of money.

vince26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 06:38 PM
  #187
Rielly4
Registered User
 
Rielly4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,125
vCash: 500
Well we are a playoff team right now with Kadri and Bozak as our centers, so it looks like, on a playoff team, they are top six centers... lol

Rielly4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 06:52 PM
  #188
InterceptSchenn
Good Evening MrFrost
 
InterceptSchenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
Posts: 648
vCash: 500
It would be tragic to pay Blowzak anything over 3M. 1st line PP and ES last 2 years, 48-52 point paces, playing with an elite PPG winger. He is a fringe second liner and is not someone who can be considered a shutdown C on the 3rd line. Let him walk, or resigning him for 2 years 3 mil per. Nothing more please. He is a passenger on that line.

InterceptSchenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:01 PM
  #189
Garbs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Garbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,807
vCash: 500
You're not going to win a Stanley Cup with Bozak or Grabs as your second line centre, it's as simple as that.

2012
Kopitar - Richards v. Zajac - Henrique/Elias

2011
Krejci - Bergeron v. Sedin - Kesler

2010
Toews - Sharp v. Richards - Briere

2009
Crosby - Malkin v. Datsyuk - Zetterberg/Filppula

2008
Datsyuk - Zetterberg/Filppula v. Crosby - Malkin

2007
Getzlaf - Pahlsson v. Spezza - Fisher

2006
Staal - Brind'Amour v. Horcoff - Peca


Can anyone definitively say Tyler Bozak is as good as anyone listed above? Keeping in mind that players like Peca and Pahlsson have an elite specialization in one end of the rink. On some of these teams he wouldn't have even been as good as the 3rd line C (Giroux, Staal, McDonald, etc.).

Tyler Bozak is a 2nd line C on a fringe team. We've simply outgrown him.

We have to assume Kadri is our man going forward, but we need another.

Garbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:18 PM
  #190
William Nylander
Registered User
 
William Nylander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 318
vCash: 500
^ thank you

William Nylander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:24 PM
  #191
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
He's a boarder line #2C
Based on what?
Statistically, he's a border line 1c (32nd in Center scoring last year, top 120 in league scoring).

This year he's in the Top 80 in scoring. So even just offensively, he's a lower top three, high top 6.

I ask again, based on what is he not a top 6?

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:25 PM
  #192
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
WE’VE SEEN THE WHOLE BOZAK STORY

A good analysis of our center situation. They can only pay Bozak on what he is right now. To think he will get better from what he is now flies in the face of all logic.
Which is a 1b, 2a. 4, 4.5m I'd say.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:27 PM
  #193
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbs View Post
You're not going to win a Stanley Cup with Bozak or Grabs as your second line centre, it's as simple as that.

2012
Kopitar - Richards v. Zajac - Henrique/Elias

2011
Krejci - Bergeron v. Sedin - Kesler

2010
Toews - Sharp v. Richards - Briere

2009
Crosby - Malkin v. Datsyuk - Zetterberg/Filppula

2008
Datsyuk - Zetterberg/Filppula v. Crosby - Malkin

2007
Getzlaf - Pahlsson v. Spezza - Fisher

2006
Staal - Brind'Amour v. Horcoff - Peca


Can anyone definitively say Tyler Bozak is as good as anyone listed above? Keeping in mind that players like Peca and Pahlsson have an elite specialization in one end of the rink. On some of these teams he wouldn't have even been as good as the 3rd line C (Giroux, Staal, McDonald, etc.).

Tyler Bozak is a 2nd line C on a fringe team. We've simply outgrown him.

We have to assume Kadri is our man going forward, but we need another.
I can see at least three groups that Bozak/ Kadri compare very well to there.

Can someone please give me something of substance showing that Bozak is a borderline 2c/3c? Anything?

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:38 PM
  #194
416Leafer
Registered User
 
416Leafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,649
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Based on what?
Statistically, he's a border line 1c (32nd in Center scoring last year, top 120 in league scoring).

This year he's in the Top 80 in scoring. So even just offensively, he's a lower top three, high top 6.

I ask again, based on what is he not a top 6?
Grabovski's career high is 58 points, Bozaks is under 50.

Please go look at the career highs of the top 6 centres from teams that have won the SC.

Kopitar, Richards, Bergeron, Krejci, Toews, Sharp, Crosby, Malkin, etc. all significantly higher. Heck, a bad year for those guys is comparable or better to the best years from Grabo/Bozak. Not to mention, the lower end scoring centres mentioned (who are still better offensively than Grabo/Bozak) also bring better defensive play.

There are 60 spots in the league for top 6 centres, but there are not 60 top 6 centres. They are unevenly distributed, some teams have none, some teams only one, and a few teams have 2 (even rarer a handful of teams have 3). If youre not comparable to the typical top 6 centre on a SC calibre team, or at least realistically comparable to the lower end top 6 Centres from SC winnng teams, then youre not a legitimate top 6 C IMO. Because then youll be dragging your team down relatively speaking compared to the calibre of teams you have to beat to win the SC. Really, a player like that is just filling a roster spot, and the GM is trying to find an upgrade.

416Leafer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:40 PM
  #195
416Leafer
Registered User
 
416Leafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,649
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
I can see at least three groups that Bozak/ Kadri compare very well to there.

Can someone please give me something of substance showing that Bozak is a borderline 2c/3c? Anything?
How? Bozaks worse than any centree on that list... And Kadri isnt exactly able to balance that out. He's not comparable to the better centes on that list.

416Leafer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:50 PM
  #196
Garbs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Garbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Based on what?
Statistically, he's a border line 1c (32nd in Center scoring last year, top 120 in league scoring).

This year he's in the Top 80 in scoring. So even just offensively, he's a lower top three, high top 6.

I ask again, based on what is he not a top 6?
Last year he was 38th in scoring for centres, which would suggest he's a very good second line C, right? Except one thing, these were the centres in front of him:

Stamkos
Lecavalier

Sedin
Kesler

Malkin
Staal

Thornton
Couture
Pavelski

Datsyuk
Filppula
Hudler

O'Reilly
Stastny

Bergeron
Krejci

Benn
Ribeiro

Richards
Stepan

Plekanec
Descharnais

Legwand
Fisher

There were 11 teams in the league who had 2 or 3 centres produce more than him last year. Seven of those teams went to the playoffs. This list also doesn't including players with injuries (Crosby, Zajac), or players that had sub-par years (M. Richards, Briere), or else it would have been more.

When basically half the league (the better half) have 2 centres who produce more than Bozak, how can you have any confidence in him? He's not a top 6 centre on a contending team. He's a top 6 on a fringe team.

Garbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 07:51 PM
  #197
Garbs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Garbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
I can see at least three groups that Bozak/ Kadri compare very well to there.

Can someone please give me something of substance showing that Bozak is a borderline 2c/3c? Anything?
Which?

Garbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 09:32 PM
  #198
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
How? Bozaks worse than any centree on that list... And Kadri isnt exactly able to balance that out. He's not comparable to the better centes on that list.
Bozak is at least equal to Zajac an Kadri is better than both.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 09:41 PM
  #199
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Grabovski's career high is 58 points, Bozaks is under 50.

Please go look at the career highs of the top 6 centres from teams that have won the SC.

Kopitar, Richards, Bergeron, Krejci, Toews, Sharp, Crosby, Malkin, etc. all significantly higher. Heck, a bad year for those guys is comparable or better to the best years from Grabo/Bozak. Not to mention, the lower end scoring centres mentioned (who are still better offensively than Grabo/Bozak) also bring better defensive play.

There are 60 spots in the league for top 6 centres, but there are not 60 top 6 centres. They are unevenly distributed, some teams have none, some teams only one, and a few teams have 2 (even rarer a handful of teams have 3). If youre not comparable to the typical top 6 centre on a SC calibre team, or at least realistically comparable to the lower end top 6 Centres from SC winnng teams, then youre not a legitimate top 6 C IMO. Because then youll be dragging your team down relatively speaking compared to the calibre of teams you have to beat to win the SC. Really, a player like that is just filling a roster spot, and the GM is trying to find an upgrade.
So in your opinion, there are less than 60 top six c's, yet the Leafs are supposed to have two of them (we have one already) and one of the deepest top 6 pools of wingers in the game?

Bozak isn't our primary source of offence like many of the centers you are naming. Our wingers are our top scorers. Yet he's still scoring at a lower top three higher top 6 last year, and in the lower top three this year.


By the way, he's top 80 in scoring THIS year, assuming only 5 dmen in there, he is scoring among the top liners in the game.

Statistically, he is a top line scorer, no matter how you try to twist it.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2013, 09:41 PM
  #200
JackJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vince26 View Post
dump bozak and grabovski waste of money.


Use that 5.5m + 3-4m on a legit top line player.

JackJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.