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Best young top-6 forward available for Cory Schneider

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Old
04-14-2013, 08:09 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
just some name of forward whose date of bird are +/- 6 months away from Schneider:

Ovechkin
Purcell
Stafford
Stastny
Stalberg
Wolski
Bozak
Dubinski
Versteeg
Bolland
Read
Kumelin
Wheeler
Desharnais
Cool. I'm not sure which of those players would be made available for Schneider, though, as well as making sense for us to target.

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04-14-2013, 08:10 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
What makes Schneider that much better than Reimer?
What makes Toronto much better then Florida? Well that's obvious look at their career stats and injury histories.

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04-14-2013, 08:11 PM
  #103
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Ok? But goalies don't peak at the same age range. I know that you like goalie debates and are a known troll. Young is a relative term when comparing players at different positions.
My wrong, i thought youth was relative to the age, more than a position.

Still, my main point is: why Vancouver would want a "Young" forward anyway? isnt better to go with a veteran able to contribute while Vancouver window to win the cup is open?

Last year, most Vancouver fans would not trade Burrows for Subban because they wanted to win now, a veteran presence was more important than a youngster.

should Vancouver continue to go for a cup run? or try rebuilding?

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04-14-2013, 08:12 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
What makes Schneider that much better than Reimer?

This seems more about helping the Canucks than helping both teams.
He's has played much better, with a team that was worse infront of him. He's been the complete difference in our team being where we are, as opposed to being out of the playoff picture.

Its pretty simple really.

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04-14-2013, 08:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
....

Yes he is. He's actually a great third line center, and despite his numbers, he generates alot of offense. Garret9 has all the stats an stuff, but apparently everyone produces better with Burmi then not with Burmi. He's also one of our best PKer's and despite his small size, throws the body. He knocks Chara on his ass like two or three times a game, it's really funny.

He also has a lot of skill and leads the team on take aways.

The problem is that he doesn't really fit our system. Seems to have a hard time understanding that he has to dump the puck in, instead of trying to beat the defender him self.

He's also good on shoot outs.
Doesn't fit Vancouvers system well either.

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04-14-2013, 08:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
My wrong, i thought youth was relative to the age, more than a position.
Take a look at some charts of forwards, defence, and goalies, tell me when on average players players hit their peak. Does that more sense?

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04-14-2013, 08:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
My wrong, i thought youth was relative to the age, more than a position.

Still, my main point is: why Vancouver would want a "Young" forward anyway? isnt better to go with a veteran able to contribute while Vancouver window to win the cup is open?

Last year, most Vancouver fans would not trade Burrows for Subban because they wanted to win now, a veteran presence was more important than a youngster.

should Vancouver continue to go for a cup run? or try rebuilding?
Well if the definition is young top 6 that sounds like thelayer is already established and ready to help now for a cup run.

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04-14-2013, 08:16 PM
  #108
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Calgary passes we aren't moving Sven for practically anyone over 25. Cory is a very good goalie but it makes no sense for us.

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04-14-2013, 08:16 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Calgary passes we aren't moving Sven for practically anyone over 25. Cory is a very good goalie but it makes no sense for us.
Ya it's true also because you guys have the 2 best goalies not playing in the NHL

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04-14-2013, 08:17 PM
  #110
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It doesn't matter that Regeir is a defenceman, it just goes to show how ridiculous your comment was. Yes Carey Price has more value. Do you think it was a good selection at 5th overall for him? Clearly goalies can have more value than you suggest otherwise they wouldn't be drafted in 1st round. Do you think Schneider has more value then he was drafted, because he was drafted late in the 1st. Obviously he does, depending on the goalie, they have a lot more value then comparable position players. Many compare QB in football to goalie in hockey and guess what's the most valuable position in football? The idea that goalies carry less value is overrstated, because most teams will never trade a good starting goalie, since they are so hard to come by and this is why we don't see many trades.
Actually it makes a world of a difference lol...the goalie and defensemen markets are completely different. More teams need top 4 Ds than they need goalies. And for the goalies value thing, the reason we don't see many trades involving starters is because they're just picked up during UFA or have been drafted by their current team...but when they are traded its usually for low.

Anaheim - Signed undrafted Hiller
Boston - Traded for Rask, paid high (Andrew Raycroft)
Buffalo - Drafted Miller
Calgary - Traded for Kipper, paid low (2nd round)
Carolina - Drafted Ward
Chicago - Drafted Crawford/signed UFA Emery
Colorado - Traded for Varlamov, paid high (1st round)
Columbus - Traded for Bobrovsky (vezina candidate), paid low (2nd round + 4th round)
Dallas - Traded for Lehtonen, paid low (Vishnevskiy + 4th round)
Edmonton - Drafted Dubnyk
Florida - Drafted Markstrom
Los Angeles - Drafted Quick
Minnesota - Drafted Backstrom
Montreal - Drafted Price
Nashville - Drafted Rinne
New Jersey - Drafted Brodeur
NYI - Signed Nabokov UFA/waivers
NYR - Drafted Lundqvist
Ottawa - Traded for Anderson, paid low (Brian Elliott)
Philadelphia - signed UFA Bryz
Phoenix - Signed UFA Mike Smith
Pittsburgh - Drafted Fleury, traded for Vokoun (7th round)
San Jose - Signed UFA Niemi
St Louis - Traded for Halak, paid low (Eller) and signed UFA Elliott
Tampa Bay - Traded for Bishop, paid low (Conacher)
Toronto - Drafted Reimer
Vancouver - Draftet Schneider, traded for Luongo and paid high (Bertuzzi)
Washington - Drafted Holtby
Winnipeg - Drafted Pavalec

So yeah...safe to say most starters (if not drafted) are either signed as UFAs or traded for cheap with the exception of Luongo, Varlamov and Rask. I'd say Schneider would get something in between Varlamov and the rest of the goalies.

Also, keep in mind that Luongo and Rask were dealt over 7 years ago, the market has changed since and most goalies are either signed as a UFA or simply traded for the usual 2nd or worse with the exception of Varlamov.

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Last edited by ottawa: 04-14-2013 at 08:28 PM.
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Old
04-14-2013, 08:18 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Calgary passes we aren't moving Sven for practically anyone over 25. Cory is a very good goalie but it makes no sense for us.
Don't worry we would never trade him to you for that anyways.

Sven's good but no way we want to see Cory that often

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04-14-2013, 08:20 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Take a look at some charts of forwards, defence, and goalies, tell me when on average players players hit their peak. Does that more sense?
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/12/10/ano...rrect-for-bias

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When we plot this meta index by age, it's pretty clear that career performance peaks at 24-25 for goalies, on average. The decline is pretty steady through the late 20s, but it tends to plateau a bit after 30. The interesting thing for me, and for those wondering about whether Luongo still has a few good seasons left in him, is that this plateau stretches out to 37.
I am looking, It doesnt seem different than forward....

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04-14-2013, 08:21 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Actually it makes a world of a difference lol...the goalie and defensemen markets are completely different. More teams need top 4 Ds than they need goalies. And for the goalies value thing, the reason we don't see many trades is because they're just picked up during UFA or have been drafted by their current team.

Anaheim - Signed undrafted Hiller
Boston - Traded for Rask, paid high (Andrew Raycroft)
Buffalo - Drafted Miller
Calgary - Drafted Kipper
Carolina - Drafted Ward
Chicago - Drafted Crawford/signed UFA Emery
Colorado - Traded for Varlamov, paid high (1st round)
Columbus - Traded for Bobrovsky (vezina candidate), paid low (2nd round + 4th round)
Dallas - Traded for Lehtonen, paid low (Vishnevskiy + 4th round)
Edmonton - Drafted Dubnyk
Florida - Drafted Markstrom
Los Angeles - Drafted Quick
Minnesota - Drafted Backstrom
Montreal - Drafted Price
Nashville - Drafted Rinne
New Jersey - Drafted Brodeur
NYI - Signed Nabokov UFA/waivers
NYR - Drafted Lundqvist
Ottawa - Traded for Anderson, paid low (Brian Elliott)
Philadelphia - signed UFA Bryz
Phoenix - Signed UFA Mike Smith
Pittsburgh - Drafted Fleury, traded for Vokoun (7th round)
San Jose - Signed UFA Niemi
St Louis - Traded for Halak, paid low (Eller) and Elliott paid low (Anderson)
Tampa Bay - Traded for Bishop, paid low (Conacher)
Toronto - Drafted Reimer
Vancouver - Draftet Schneider, traded for Luongo and paid high (Bertuzzi)
Washington - Drafted Holtby
Winnipeg - Drafted Pavalec

So yeah...safe to say most starters (if not drafted) are either signed as UFAs or traded for cheap with the exception of Luongo, Varlamov and Rask
Lundquist, Miller, Ward, Schneider, Holtby, Quick, Rinne, Brodeur, Backstrom were all drafted? So what is your point? Seems like most teams hold on to their goalies and draft the future because they are to valuable. The only goalies traded had contract or injury issues. You see that's the only way they become available.

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04-14-2013, 08:21 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Actually it makes a world of a difference lol...the goalie and defensemen markets are completely different. More teams need top 4 Ds than they need goalies. And for the goalies value thing, the reason we don't see many trades is because they're just picked up during UFA or have been drafted by their current team.

Anaheim - Signed undrafted Hiller
Boston - Traded for Rask, paid high (Andrew Raycroft)
Buffalo - Drafted Miller
Calgary - Drafted Kipper
Carolina - Drafted Ward
Chicago - Drafted Crawford/signed UFA Emery
Colorado - Traded for Varlamov, paid high (1st round)
Columbus - Traded for Bobrovsky (vezina candidate), paid low (2nd round + 4th round)
Dallas - Traded for Lehtonen, paid low (Vishnevskiy + 4th round)
Edmonton - Drafted Dubnyk
Florida - Drafted Markstrom
Los Angeles - Drafted Quick
Minnesota - Drafted Backstrom
Montreal - Drafted Price
Nashville - Drafted Rinne
New Jersey - Drafted Brodeur
NYI - Signed Nabokov UFA/waivers
NYR - Drafted Lundqvist
Ottawa - Traded for Anderson, paid low (Brian Elliott)
Philadelphia - signed UFA Bryz
Phoenix - Signed UFA Mike Smith
Pittsburgh - Drafted Fleury, traded for Vokoun (7th round)
San Jose - Signed UFA Niemi
St Louis - Traded for Halak, paid low (Eller) and Elliott paid low (Anderson)
Tampa Bay - Traded for Bishop, paid low (Conacher)
Toronto - Drafted Reimer
Vancouver - Draftet Schneider, traded for Luongo and paid high (Bertuzzi)
Washington - Drafted Holtby
Winnipeg - Drafted Pavalec

So yeah...safe to say most starters (if not drafted) are either signed as UFAs or traded for cheap with the exception of Luongo, Varlamov and Rask
Your lists a bit off, I'm pretty sure Tbay paid high for Bishop, and also STL signed Elliot. There are some other stuff, but really this speaks to how rare goalie trades are (for proven goalies) more than it is for what they can return.

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04-14-2013, 08:22 PM
  #115
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Ya it's true also because you guys have the 2 best goalies not playing in the NHL
How could I forget.

I'm glad you guys don't take offense to the fact we wouldn't do that trade it just doesn't make sense for us to get a 27 year old goalie for our top prospect. It probably doesn't work for you guys as you would hate to play against Cory if he was able to hold this team together.

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04-14-2013, 08:23 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Actually it makes a world of a difference lol...the goalie and defensemen markets are completely different. More teams need top 4 Ds than they need goalies. And for the goalies value thing, the reason we don't see many trades involving starters is because they're just picked up during UFA or have been drafted by their current team...but when they are traded its usually for low.

Anaheim - Signed undrafted Hiller
Boston - Traded for Rask, paid high (Andrew Raycroft)
Buffalo - Drafted Miller
Calgary - Drafted Kipper
Carolina - Drafted Ward
Chicago - Drafted Crawford/signed UFA Emery
Colorado - Traded for Varlamov, paid high (1st round)
Columbus - Traded for Bobrovsky (vezina candidate), paid low (2nd round + 4th round)
Dallas - Traded for Lehtonen, paid low (Vishnevskiy + 4th round)
Edmonton - Drafted Dubnyk
Florida - Drafted Markstrom
Los Angeles - Drafted Quick
Minnesota - Drafted Backstrom
Montreal - Drafted Price
Nashville - Drafted Rinne
New Jersey - Drafted Brodeur
NYI - Signed Nabokov UFA/waivers
NYR - Drafted Lundqvist
Ottawa - Traded for Anderson, paid low (Brian Elliott)
Philadelphia - signed UFA Bryz
Phoenix - Signed UFA Mike Smith
Pittsburgh - Drafted Fleury, traded for Vokoun (7th round)
San Jose - Signed UFA Niemi
St Louis - Traded for Halak, paid low (Eller) and Elliott paid low (Anderson)
Tampa Bay - Traded for Bishop, paid low (Conacher)
Toronto - Drafted Reimer
Vancouver - Draftet Schneider, traded for Luongo and paid high (Bertuzzi)
Washington - Drafted Holtby
Winnipeg - Drafted Pavalec

So yeah...safe to say most starters (if not drafted) are either signed as UFAs or traded for cheap with the exception of Luongo, Varlamov and Rask. I'd say Schneider would get something in between Varlamov and the rest of the goalies.

Also, keep in mind that Luongo and Rask were dealt over 7 years ago, the market has changed since and most goalies are either signed as a UFA or simply traded for the usual 2nd or worse with the exception of Varlamov.
Kipper was drafted by SJ was traded for.

Also Bertuzzi was a self of his former self when he was traded Vancouver didn't give up anything of significance.

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04-14-2013, 08:26 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/12/10/ano...rrect-for-bias



I am looking, It doesnt seem different than forward....
That analysis doesn't make much sense because it includes back ups. What's the average peak for starters? Lol

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04-14-2013, 08:26 PM
  #118
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Lundquist, Miller, Ward, Schneider, Holtby, Quick, Rinne, Brodeur, Backstrom were all drafted? So what is your point? Seems like most teams hold on to their goalies and draft the future because they are to valuable. The only goalies traded had contract or injury issues. You see that's the only way they become available.
What goalies got traded because of contract issues or injuries apart from Bryz on that list? My point was the goalies that aren't drafted by their own team were usually signed during UFA because that's how easy it is to get a starting goalie or else they get traded for and more often than not, the return is low.

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Your lists a bit off, I'm pretty sure Tbay paid high for Bishop, and also STL signed Elliot. There are some other stuff, but really this speaks to how rare goalie trades are (for proven goalies) more than it is for what they can return.
You're right about Elliott. And I don't think Conacher was an overpayment...the guy has 6 points in his last 22 games and all his success came while he was on a line with Stamkos and St Louis. I think that's one of the few trades that was even.

And the point I was making goalie trades are rare, but when they happen they most often have a small return.

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Kipper was drafted by SJ was traded for.
Thanks, I'm stupid sometimes , he was traded for only a 2nd though which kind of helps the point i was making.

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04-14-2013, 08:28 PM
  #119
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How could I forget.

I'm glad you guys don't take offense to the fact we wouldn't do that trade it just doesn't make sense for us to get a 27 year old goalie for our top prospect. It probably doesn't work for you guys as you would hate to play against Cory if he was able to hold this team together.
Yep that is all true.

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04-14-2013, 08:30 PM
  #120
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http://hockeyanalysis.com/2010/04/28...o-goalies-age/


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04-14-2013, 08:30 PM
  #121
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That analysis doesn't make much sense because it includes back ups. What's the average peak for starters? Lol
Sorry, i didn't knew that starter was peaking older than Backup.


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04-14-2013, 08:30 PM
  #122
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What goalies got traded because of contract issues or injuries apart from Bryz on that list? My point was the goalies that aren't drafted by their own team were usually signed during UFA because that's how easy it is to get a starting goalie or else they get traded for and more often than not, the return is low.



You're right about Elliott. And I don't think Conacher was an overpayment...the guy has 6 points in his last 22 games and all his success came while he was on a line with Stamkos and St Louis. I think that's one of the few trades that was even.

And the point I was making goalie trades are rare, but when they happen they most often have a small return.



Thanks, I'm stupid sometimes , he was traded for only a 2nd though which kind of helps the point i was making.
Luongo, Bryzgalov, Raycroft, Lehtonen, Niemi. Basically the best goalies on your list that left their teams were because of contract and injury problems.

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04-14-2013, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
What goalies got traded because of contract issues or injuries apart from Bryz on that list? My point was the goalies that aren't drafted by their own team were usually signed during UFA because that's how easy it is to get a starting goalie or else they get traded for and more often than not, the return is low.



You're right about Elliott. And I don't think Conacher was an overpayment...the guy has 6 points in his last 22 games and all his success came while he was on a line with Stamkos and St Louis. I think that's one of the few trades that was even.

And the point I was making goalie trades are rare, but when they happen they most often have a small return.



Thanks, I'm stupid sometimes , he was traded for only a 2nd though which kind of helps the point i was making.
I wouldn't say that, they are probably about the same. It depends, most of the time the goalie trades are unproven goalie, whenever there is a proven goalie it goes for a good return, like Luongo.

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04-14-2013, 08:34 PM
  #124
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Makes no sense to us other, some fans are fine and have been fine with trading him all along.

But for the majority of us, especially after the insane run he went on, it make no sense to deal him.

Cory isn't going anywhere and the return would have to be massive. I heard someone say (not sure how reliable this is but it was a reporter on Vancouver Radio who said it)

That they were seriously considering trading Schneider after the 10/11 season, and they were asking Philly for Claude Giroux, obviously that was before he established himself as one of the very best in the league but he still had a 70 point season.

Thats kinda rediculous but it just shows how highly our management thinks of Schneider and for good reason, he continues to be underrated IMO. If anyone followed our team they would see Schneider has been team MVP and its not even close IMO. And I firmly believe he should be one of the top contender for the Vezina, (maybe not win, but one of the best) considering he has put on those stats infront of what has been sub-par to borderline terrible defense and team defense. And not always the best goal support (until we picked up Roy and Kes returned)
Or it's indicative of how out to lunch your gm is on trade value, this is the guy who thinks that 7uongoal has value, he's admitted his contract "sucks" and makes him immovable, goalies do not bear the same returns as ordinary players plain and simple. It's time you Vancouver fans and hopefully management too realize that your not getting a top 6 plus a top 4 is picks for either guy. As far as I'm concerned they can both rot there forever

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04-14-2013, 08:34 PM
  #125
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The point of this study was to find if there was a correlation between age and Saves%, not to figure out the peaking age.

The study only included goalies who played at least 14 seasons (19 goalies in all). My issue with that study is that overall, the Saves% of goalies improved since the 1990-2000 so its normal for many of these goalies with at least 14 seasons that their saves% peak was later in their career.

Quote:
So what I have done is identify all of the goalies that have played in the NHL for at least 14 seasons
I wonder what is the % of all goalies who played in the NHL, who played at least 14 seasons. I dont think its representative of all NHL goalies.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-14-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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