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Old
04-13-2013, 01:34 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
And what did you think it was "telling"?
He was telling TMac and Robinson -- loudly -- that Clowe left the turd in the punchbowl on his way out the door. Mystery solved!

Seriously, I think it's an indication that coaching and the locker room leaders are still not on the same page every night. But Marleau is not the source of the team's issues. Comparing the Columbus and Detroit games, I actually wish TMac would cut shifts from underperforming "untouchables" more often -- it includes Marleau, but again he isn't the only one.

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04-13-2013, 03:16 PM
  #227
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From your lips to God's ear, apparently.
I just hope he continues to move his feet. That's all I really wanted to see from Marleau. Hard work away from the puck.

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04-13-2013, 07:31 PM
  #228
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I thought when TMac limited the ice time of JT, Burns, and Marleau vs Columbus it was warranted. Then against Detroit, Marleau got 9 additional shifts. Burns got 7 additional shifts. JT got 15 additional shifts.

Marleau has his faults, but the whole "transitional" dynamic between TMac and the top-6 this season has been... turbulent. Marleau is not the 'turd-in-the-punchbowl' that some portray.

I also thought the end of the Detroit game with Boyle "discussing" something -- loudly -- on the bench with TMac and Robinson was telling.
He didn't really limit Marleau's shifts against Columbus like he did Havlat-Thornton-Burns. Those guys got less than 11 minutes of ice time. Marleau was still over 16. Marleau simply wasn't double-shifted like he normally is. Thornton's line got flat-out benched. And while the line had two goals against, I didn't think outside of the two goals, they were really that bad nor deserving of a benching. Maybe it was an accumulation thing, I don't know.

I didn't catch the Boyle thing at the end of the Wings game but that's not out of the ordinary especially for a player like Boyle. He's a leader, he is vocal, and he won't sit on his hands when he has something to say.

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04-14-2013, 01:35 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
He didn't really limit Marleau's shifts against Columbus like he did Havlat-Thornton-Burns. Those guys got less than 11 minutes of ice time. Marleau was still over 16. Marleau simply wasn't double-shifted like he normally is. Thornton's line got flat-out benched. And while the line had two goals against, I didn't think outside of the two goals, they were really that bad nor deserving of a benching. Maybe it was an accumulation thing, I don't know.

I didn't catch the Boyle thing at the end of the Wings game but that's not out of the ordinary especially for a player like Boyle. He's a leader, he is vocal, and he won't sit on his hands when he has something to say.
If I had to guess on the JT/Burns/Havlat benching, it was turnovers more than defensive coverage. Since that time, JT has been more careful and more direct with the puck. That includes shooting more. It seems the coaches want puck to the net as soon after zone entry as possible. It can cut down on creativity. No passes across the blueline or from the sideboards to the high slot (high risk plays). It would also explain JT being combined with Wingels/Torres as they are rarely available for that kind of play with the way they play the game.

I have been watching Boyle at 5on5, and I imagine that if Robinson is serious about getting the puck up quickly that he is not enamored of Boyle doing his frequent rewinds. I have noted quite a few occasions recently where it isn't a line change and there is a forward open to advance where Boyle holds and starts over rather than passing. Just a guess.

I think the coaches know that the team has to get A LOT better at 5on5 for the playoffs if they don't want to be bounced early and quickly (eg 4-1 in the first round). JT and Boyle are key to that. There are no shootouts in the playoffs and there are more frequent 4on4 opportunities as the refs are more reluctant to give up PPs. 4on4 is another Sharks issue.

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04-14-2013, 09:37 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
If I had to guess on the JT/Burns/Havlat benching, it was turnovers more than defensive coverage. Since that time, JT has been more careful and more direct with the puck. That includes shooting more. It seems the coaches want puck to the net as soon after zone entry as possible. It can cut down on creativity. No passes across the blueline or from the sideboards to the high slot (high risk plays). It would also explain JT being combined with Wingels/Torres as they are rarely available for that kind of play with the way they play the game.

I have been watching Boyle at 5on5, and I imagine that if Robinson is serious about getting the puck up quickly that he is not enamored of Boyle doing his frequent rewinds. I have noted quite a few occasions recently where it isn't a line change and there is a forward open to advance where Boyle holds and starts over rather than passing. Just a guess.

I think the coaches know that the team has to get A LOT better at 5on5 for the playoffs if they don't want to be bounced early and quickly (eg 4-1 in the first round). JT and Boyle are key to that. There are no shootouts in the playoffs and there are more frequent 4on4 opportunities as the refs are more reluctant to give up PPs. 4on4 is another Sharks issue.
Don't you agree that for players like Thornton and Boyle, you just need to let them play their game? They'll figure it out, especially guys like Boyle.

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04-14-2013, 10:21 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Don't you agree that for players like Thornton and Boyle, you just need to let them play their game? They'll figure it out, especially guys like Boyle.
You do but there are some rare occasions where those guys need to be sent a very strong message in order to get them to play how you want them to. If they're struggling AND not playing the way you want is when coaches really have a problem. If you're struggling but playing how they want you to, they'll let you figure it out. And they'll give you slack if you're not playing the way they want but getting it done. Thornton for a while was being very stubborn but it wasn't impacting his production even though he didn't look great at all really. Boyle is sort of unique. He really wasn't playing that badly until last week or so. He's not playing at the level he's used to but he wasn't playing badly until just recently.

They'll give Boyle a pretty long leash on this like they did Thornton but if this continues, you'll see the coaches do something about it. I think Demers has been the best overall d-man in this recent stretch but not by much over Stuart but Stuart has obviously had the better season.

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04-14-2013, 11:47 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Don't you agree that for players like Thornton and Boyle, you just need to let them play their game? They'll figure it out, especially guys like Boyle.
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You do but there are some rare occasions where those guys need to be sent a very strong message in order to get them to play how you want them to. If they're struggling AND not playing the way you want is when coaches really have a problem. If you're struggling but playing how they want you to, they'll let you figure it out. And they'll give you slack if you're not playing the way they want but getting it done. Thornton for a while was being very stubborn but it wasn't impacting his production even though he didn't look great at all really. Boyle is sort of unique. He really wasn't playing that badly until last week or so. He's not playing at the level he's used to but he wasn't playing badly until just recently.

They'll give Boyle a pretty long leash on this like they did Thornton but if this continues, you'll see the coaches do something about it. I think Demers has been the best overall d-man in this recent stretch but not by much over Stuart but Stuart has obviously had the better season.
PF said it better than I could with one quibble. I don't think Boyle has been at all good this year. His assists have dropped like a stone. He has been curtailing rather than assisting quick ups and entries. And, I did see a coach talking to him right after he bypassed an opportunity.

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04-14-2013, 11:52 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You do but there are some rare occasions where those guys need to be sent a very strong message in order to get them to play how you want them to. If they're struggling AND not playing the way you want is when coaches really have a problem. If you're struggling but playing how they want you to, they'll let you figure it out. And they'll give you slack if you're not playing the way they want but getting it done. Thornton for a while was being very stubborn but it wasn't impacting his production even though he didn't look great at all really. Boyle is sort of unique. He really wasn't playing that badly until last week or so. He's not playing at the level he's used to but he wasn't playing badly until just recently.

They'll give Boyle a pretty long leash on this like they did Thornton but if this continues, you'll see the coaches do something about it. I think Demers has been the best overall d-man in this recent stretch but not by much over Stuart but Stuart has obviously had the better season.
I think that there are some players with the combination of talent, smarts, and drive where you should manage them at a very low level. Look at Therien vs. Bylsma in Pittsburgh or Washington pre- and post- Halak.

Boyle fits into that category the most out of anyone on the Sharks.

With Thornton and Marleau, sometimes I wonder. Both to a certain degree seem too confident in their own games to be dangerous enough.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Ehrhoff vs. Demers. Coaches, just like fans get frustrated when players go through these growing pains. Thing is, with Ehrhoff, he took a long time to developed and still never really reached that top-pairing D-man status. IMO, Ehrhoff suffered from lack of high-level hockey sense, and he eventually just plateaued with that handicap. Is Demers's the same or can he do better? Ehrhoff also took a long time to work on the aspects of his game where he struggled. Hopefully Demers is not the same.

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04-14-2013, 11:58 PM
  #234
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Just putting this out there, but Ehrhoff is playing at a Norris level right now. He's just not getting the attention he deserves because he's playing for that ****-show Sabres team.

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04-15-2013, 12:06 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
I think that there are some players with the combination of talent, smarts, and drive where you should manage them at a very low level. Look at Therien vs. Bylsma in Pittsburgh or Washington pre- and post- Halak.

Boyle fits into that category the most out of anyone on the Sharks.

With Thornton and Marleau, sometimes I wonder. Both to a certain degree seem too confident in their own games to be dangerous enough.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Ehrhoff vs. Demers. Coaches, just like fans get frustrated when players go through these growing pains. Thing is, with Ehrhoff, he took a long time to developed and still never really reached that top-pairing D-man status. IMO, Ehrhoff suffered from lack of high-level hockey sense, and he eventually just plateaued with that handicap. Is Demers's the same or can he do better? Ehrhoff also took a long time to work on the aspects of his game where he struggled. Hopefully Demers is not the same.
At the NHL level, not really. He has had a couple of off years. Many jump on the bandwagon to knock Euro players more readily than North Americans. Some of the criticisms of Ehrhoff were extremely unjustified and he was frequently not credited when he did well. Offensively, he is beyond anyone that the Sharks have had outside of Boyle and Campbell. He is good defensively 1on1, but can get lost in more complex defensive schemes. His shooting accuracy was no less than average at any point despite claims to the contrary.

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04-15-2013, 12:41 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Just putting this out there, but Ehrhoff is playing at a Norris level right now. He's just not getting the attention he deserves because he's playing for that ****-show Sabres team.
Yep, and Marcel Goc is also a frontrunner for the Selke, and somehow Ron Wilson is sure to win the Jack Adams

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04-15-2013, 12:44 AM
  #237
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Yep, and Marcel Goc is also a frontrunner for the Selke, and somehow Ron Wilson is sure to win the Jack Adams
Do you have a program sends you alerts every time anybody says anything good about Ehrhoff?

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04-15-2013, 12:53 AM
  #238
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At the NHL level, not really.
Yes, really. He improved his game defensively, worked on his shot, and worked on his decision-making. Among other things.

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Many jump on the bandwagon to knock Euro players more readily than North Americans.
Sad for those people.

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Some of the criticisms of Ehrhoff were extremely unjustified and he was frequently not credited when he did well.
No more so than Jason Demers, I'd gather. There will always be those unjustified criticisms...I think the problem came from the fact that when you take his frame, skating ability, and physical skillset, you think "Scott Niedermayer". But he doesn't have Niedermayer's brain, and so he ends up being what he is, a #2-3 defenseman who can dominate on the PP. He certainly improved his game, but expectations were probably set a little too high. The lack of hockey sense was a barrier he wasn't breaking.

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Offensively, he is beyond anyone that the Sharks have had outside of Boyle and Campbell.
Maybe in this era. Sharks have also had Ozolinsh, Wilson, Suter etc.

Just in recent years, they've had Carle, Preissing, etc; comparable prime vs. prime.

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04-15-2013, 01:26 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Yes, really. He improved his game defensively, worked on his shot, and worked on his decision-making. Among other things.



Sad for those people.



No more so than Jason Demers, I'd gather. There will always be those unjustified criticisms...I think the problem came from the fact that when you take his frame, skating ability, and physical skillset, you think "Scott Niedermayer". But he doesn't have Niedermayer's brain, and so he ends up being what he is, a #2-3 defenseman who can dominate on the PP. He certainly improved his game, but expectations were probably set a little too high. The lack of hockey sense was a barrier he wasn't breaking.



Maybe in this era. Sharks have also had Ozolinsh, Wilson, Suter etc.

Just in recent years, they've had Carle, Preissing, etc; comparable prime vs. prime.
Ozo's defense was way less than Ehrhoff. Ehrhoff is way up there on on offense. Blake, Suter and Wilson were over the hill when with the Sharks although better in their primes. Ehrhoff is beyond Carle on both sides of the puck.

Rather than use #1, #2, Etc. to describe Ehrhoff, I describe him as a premier offensive guy. #1 offensively. I would put his defense in the #3 range now.

I don't go with the thoughts of some fans and GMs that unless a player is first line or generational that they are trash/trade bait. The job of a GM should be more in building a team and integrating the parts that they have. DW has frequently gone the way of getting the top at the expense of the middle and bottom of the lineup (mainly middle) and somewhat ignoring integration (too many F2s, not enough F1s, etc.).

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04-17-2013, 09:36 PM
  #240
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Bumping this, because of two things 1) I had so much fun watching him on fire in the first six games and 2) some idiot dropped him in my keeper league. The question is: is he just have a bad/injury-riddled season or is this a sign of his regression? He still has the top tier NHL speed as far as I'm concerned.

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