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AHL Affiliate Discussion II: Norfolk Admirals

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Old
04-14-2013, 02:46 PM
  #951
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Vatanen is better on defense then J Schultz IMO. Schultz is very soft on the body. Vats doesn't shy away from contact. You'll see what I mean next year.
I agree that Schultz is far softer than Vatanen. From what I saw earlier this year, however, Vatanen is too small for his physicality to matter much against most top line NHL players. And a lot of the problem with Schultz isn't just his lack of physicality but his poor positioning and instincts in the defensive zone, which Vatanen also displayed in extremely sheltered minutes at the start of the year. Hopefully he's much better, but now isn't the time to be finding out. Let him star in the AHL playoffs.

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04-14-2013, 02:48 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
I agree that Schultz is far softer than Vatanen. From what I saw earlier this year, however, Vatanen is too small for his physicality to matter much against most top line NHL players. And a lot of the problem with Schultz isn't just his lack of physicality but his poor positioning and instincts in the defensive zone, which Vatanen also displayed in extremely sheltered minutes at the start of the year. Hopefully he's much better, but now isn't the time to be finding out. Let him star in the AHL playoffs.
Yeah, I agree with you. The main reason why I think we need him is because of PP, but I think you're right, it's probably better if he gets some more exp. down in Norfolk, then competes for a spot next year

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04-14-2013, 02:55 PM
  #953
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Yeah, I agree with you. The main reason why I think we need him is because of PP, but I think you're right, it's probably better if he gets some more exp. down in Norfolk, then competes for a spot next year
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing him play. He was great at outlet passing and seeing the offensive play develop. I'm not sure he'd fix our PP though, as puck retrieval and shot selection (always to a location that clears the zone or goes to where the other players aren't) seems to be the problem right now. He might help with some of that, but it's the forwards taking those crappy shots as well.

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04-14-2013, 02:58 PM
  #954
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Vatanen: 9 + 36 = 45 and +1.

Ready for NHL I say. Been dominating the AHL the second half of the season.
He has been dominating on the PP only. I'm watching the game now, and even though his defense has improved big leaps, he is far from dominating. He (along with Lindholm) seem to be the best d-men in Norfolk, but there is a difference in level of game between NHL and AHL. And neither of them are dominating the AHL.

And that is the thing. Being NHL ready do you mean they are ready for an injury call up or NHL ready in that Anaheim could trade away established defensemen right before the play-offs. If you mean as an injury call-up - both of them are ready for that alright.

This whole discussion is dangerous in that there is a growing "prospect hate" in these boards only because of the discussion doesn't seem to reach any kind of consensus. It's easier just to think "**** those prospects, Anaheim is doing fine" than to continue the arguing on when the prospects could be ready for a full NHL season.

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04-14-2013, 03:03 PM
  #955
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Friberg scored his first career AHL goal

Congrats to him

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04-14-2013, 03:09 PM
  #956
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Vatanen seems to also be getting a nice amount of PK time (and looking good I might add). This is also something he just couldn't get in the NHL.

EDIT: Ok now looking at the game I can see why there is the second wave of the Vatanen hype as his defense is definitely among the best in Norfolk now. But if he develops his defensive game at a pace like this, why on earth would you like to take him away from there, his coach must be a wizard. Keep him there for another full season!

DSP and Maroon also looking good. The game is entertaining. I might even watch a full season of AHL if the feed was even a tad better.


Last edited by Hagged: 04-14-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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04-14-2013, 03:29 PM
  #957
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Vatanen needs to mature his game to actually be less physical. Sort of like how Perry had to work the junior of of his game before he became good, Vatanen has gotten used to being quite physical in Europe. But he's too small to play that way in the NHL.

Other semi-examples are how Brule didn't get smarter about being physical as a small forward and how Jack Johnson didn't fully work out playing as a defenseman vs a rover who can play wherever he wants.

IMO the best way to improve that is with large amounts of playing time at appropriate, lower levels.

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04-14-2013, 03:45 PM
  #958
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IMO the best way to improve that is with large amounts of playing time at appropriate, lower levels.
Which is what three years in SM-Ligia and one year in the A was for. He could very well spend some more time there next season but he should be penciled in to start the season with the Ducks and have to play his way to Norfolk. We can debate more mature one aspect of his game is forever but you can't give a kid like this the impression that he doesn't deserve that shot with the season he's had. I'm willing to deal with the things he needs to work on as long as he gets to do the things does very well. Seriously though, wouldn't you rather have him here than Lovejoy or Lydman?

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04-14-2013, 03:54 PM
  #959
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Vatanen needs to mature his game to actually be less physical. Sort of like how Perry had to work the junior of of his game before he became good, Vatanen has gotten used to being quite physical in Europe. But he's too small to play that way in the NHL.

Other semi-examples are how Brule didn't get smarter about being physical as a small forward and how Jack Johnson didn't fully work out playing as a defenseman vs a rover who can play wherever he wants.

IMO the best way to improve that is with large amounts of playing time at appropriate, lower levels.
It does seem like he is coached to play that way. At least in this game he maintains his speed a lot better than I have seen before. He only plays the body to separate the puck and the forward. He doesn't go for the checks to take off the speed as much as he did. His defensive game is going towards covering the pass lines and using his stick. I really like what I'm seeing of him, even though he has had only a couple of shots on goal this game despite a lot of PP time.

EDIT: Vatanen with a minus, weird two on one. Two providence forwards behind Bobkov's goal, Vatanen in front. And nobody there to help even when the situation lasted for several seconds. Hard to put that on Vatanen, but those situations are the one's better to learn in AHL than in NHL.
EDIT2: Another goal for providence. 3-1.


Last edited by Hagged: 04-14-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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04-14-2013, 04:48 PM
  #960
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Norfolk loses.

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04-14-2013, 04:57 PM
  #961
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Like Schultz? That's working out just peachy for Edmonton at ES, isn't it?
Yep. I honestly can't think of a defenseman that had an amazing first season, which is what a few people seem to be promising, in the last few years. I like how for all the *****ing about Sbisa's problems some people don't seem to realize that any prospect we bring up will suffer from similar problems.

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04-14-2013, 05:17 PM
  #962
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Yep. I honestly can't think of a defenseman that had an amazing first season, which is what a few people seem to be promising, in the last few years. I like how for all the *****ing about Sbisa's problems some people don't seem to realize that any prospect we bring up will suffer from similar problems.
The last guy I can remember who came in at an early age with an amazing first season and never looked back is Brian Leetch. It really, really doesn't happen that often.

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04-14-2013, 05:26 PM
  #963
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Maybe Pietrangelo if you count 2011 as his first year.

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04-14-2013, 06:15 PM
  #964
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Maybe Pietrangelo if you count 2011 as his first year.
I don't think you can. He played in the prior two seasons, but he just wasn't ready. When he was ready he was damn good, though.

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04-14-2013, 06:38 PM
  #965
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Dion had a great two year opening, and then his bad habits formed and destroyed him.

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04-14-2013, 06:40 PM
  #966
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I don't think you can. He played in the prior two seasons, but he just wasn't ready. When he was ready he was damn good, though.
i think vatanen has close to the upside of shattenkirk (offensively) and hes following a similar development pattern imo. (I dont know how good shattenkirk is defensively)

shattenkirk drafted in 07. spent multiple years getting ready, and then once he cracked his NHL spot (on pretty poor colorado avs defense core) he stayed.

vatanen has put in his work, I just see him taking a bit longer than shattenkirk because he needs to get accustomed to the style of the NA game.

I do imagine that we'll most likely see vatanen as a full time NHL'er next season, whether that be at the beginning of next season, or half-way through next season due to either him playing too well, or injuries, or our vets sucking lol (assuming he spends the full offseason getting stronger)

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04-14-2013, 08:04 PM
  #967
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Which is what three years in SM-Ligia and one year in the A was for. He could very well spend some more time there next season but he should be penciled in to start the season with the Ducks and have to play his way to Norfolk. We can debate more mature one aspect of his game is forever but you can't give a kid like this the impression that he doesn't deserve that shot with the season he's had. I'm willing to deal with the things he needs to work on as long as he gets to do the things does very well. Seriously though, wouldn't you rather have him here than Lovejoy or Lydman?
3 years in FEL helped him with other stuff, but did not help him with what I was describing. In fact that's how he could pick up those habits that need to be ironed out. But yes the 1 year in the AHL is a good start.

I actually think it will be similar. In my crystal ball, Vatanen starts next year on the team. Hits a patch and gets sent down. About February he gets called up permanently.
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It does seem like he is coached to play that way. At least in this game he maintains his speed a lot better than I have seen before. He only plays the body to separate the puck and the forward. He doesn't go for the checks to take off the speed as much as he did. His defensive game is going towards covering the pass lines and using his stick. I really like what I'm seeing of him, even though he has had only a couple of shots on goal this game despite a lot of PP time.

EDIT: Vatanen with a minus, weird two on one. Two providence forwards behind Bobkov's goal, Vatanen in front. And nobody there to help even when the situation lasted for several seconds. Hard to put that on Vatanen, but those situations are the one's better to learn in AHL than in NHL.
EDIT2: Another goal for providence. 3-1.
Sounds promising. That's exactly the kind of thing he needed to change. In his stint up with the big team, I liked his instincts but he would just get completely outmuscled in the corners. If he played a little differently it could help hide his deficiencies.

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04-14-2013, 08:12 PM
  #968
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3 years in FEL helped him with other stuff, but did not help him with what I was describing. In fact that's how he could pick up those habits that need to be ironed out. But yes the 1 year in the AHL is a good start.

I actually think it will be similar. In my crystal ball, Vatanen starts next year on the team. Hits a patch and gets sent down. About February he gets called up permanently.

Sounds promising. That's exactly the kind of thing he needed to change. In his stint up with the big team, I liked his instincts but he would just get completely outmuscled in the corners. If he played a little differently it could help hide his deficiencies.
Yeah, he needs to be Enstrom or Timmonen. Not Fleury.

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04-14-2013, 10:53 PM
  #969
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Was at the game today at the Dunk. Ads looked good in the first and caught up in shots in the second. Third sucked. I was happy to get to see a lot of the guys (I'm an intern). Saw Hampy, Rolo, Clark (who walked in way late with a bag of convenient store goods. Is he hurt?). Fun day though. Hoping next week will end differently.

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04-14-2013, 11:03 PM
  #970
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Dion had a great two year opening, and then his bad habits formed and destroyed him.
It's been under the radar(which is surprising, given where he plays), but I'd say he's bounced back quite considerably. Rotation of D partners, none of whom are that great(seriously, his three most common on-ice partners are all forwards), starts in the offensive zone least of all Leafs defensemen, and one of the least in the league, plays the toughest competition of any defenseman, but all in all having a very good year.

He's a guy who was a victim of looking great because of the highlight reel. He put up great offensive numbers, had a booming shot and even bigger hits(which made people assume he was great defensively). Now he's matured his game quite a bit, but it goes unnoticed because it's not highlight reel stuff. Not sure how we'd make it work, but really wouldn't mind trying to add him next year or after. I really like his game these days.

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04-15-2013, 03:14 AM
  #971
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Vatanen seems to also be getting a nice amount of PK time (and looking good I might add). This is also something he just couldn't get in the NHL.

EDIT: Ok now looking at the game I can see why there is the second wave of the Vatanen hype as his defense is definitely among the best in Norfolk now. But if he develops his defensive game at a pace like this, why on earth would you like to take him away from there, his coach must be a wizard. Keep him there for another full season!

DSP and Maroon also looking good. The game is entertaining. I might even watch a full season of AHL if the feed was even a tad better.
If Anaheim decided to keep him in Norfolk for another full season could he go back to Europe after 13-14 for a year and return to North America as a free agent? I read somewhere his contract ends 13-14.

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04-15-2013, 03:23 AM
  #972
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If Anaheim decided to keep him in Norfolk for another full season could he go back to Europe after 13-14 for a year and return to North America as a free agent? I read somewhere his contract ends 13-14.
His contract does run out then, but he would be a restricted free agent (RFA) at that point, so he couldn't sign with anyone other than Anaheim. Also, for next season, he'd need the Ducks' permission to go play in Europe, even if they keep him in Norfolk.

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04-15-2013, 05:06 AM
  #973
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i think vatanen has close to the upside of shattenkirk (offensively) and hes following a similar development pattern imo. (I dont know how good shattenkirk is defensively)

shattenkirk drafted in 07. spent multiple years getting ready, and then once he cracked his NHL spot (on pretty poor colorado avs defense core) he stayed.
If Vatanen becomes as good as Shattenkirk I would be more than happy!

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04-15-2013, 08:45 AM
  #974
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If Vatanen would have been after the money he would have taken the KHL route. He was the 2nd overall KHL 2010 draft pick by Metallurg Novokuznetsk wasn't he. Novokuznetsk is not one of the big market teams so he would have been able to get maybe from 1 to max 4 million per season. In NLA he could maybe get a max of million a season, in FEL max 400 thousand.

I think that AHL route is the most profitable for Vatanen if he pans out on top of his dream that is NHL. I think that Vatanen can wait for another season, and then still take a one year two-way contract. If he doesn't seem to be closer to get to play in the NHL then it might be better for him to sign a KHL deal to secure his future.

Does anybody know how much Vatanen gets playing in the AHL. It would be nice to know when comparing different career scenarios for him?


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04-15-2013, 09:11 AM
  #975
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According to Capgeek, Vatanen makes $67,500 in the AHL.

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