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Old
04-14-2013, 09:42 PM
  #201
The Apologist
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Originally Posted by Garbs View Post
Last year he was 38th in scoring for centres, which would suggest he's a very good second line C, right? Except one thing, these were the centres in front of him:

Stamkos
Lecavalier

Sedin
Kesler

Malkin
Staal

Thornton
Couture
Pavelski

Datsyuk
Filppula
Hudler

O'Reilly
Stastny

Bergeron
Krejci

Benn
Ribeiro

Richards
Stepan

Plekanec
Descharnais

Legwand
Fisher

There were 11 teams in the league who had 2 or 3 centres produce more than him last year. Seven of those teams went to the playoffs. This list also doesn't including players with injuries (Crosby, Zajac), or players that had sub-par years (M. Richards, Briere), or else it would have been more.

When basically half the league (the better half) have 2 centres who produce more than Bozak, how can you have any confidence in him? He's not a top 6 centre on a contending team. He's a top 6 on a fringe team.
How many of their top six wingers outscored Bozak?

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04-14-2013, 09:56 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
How many of their top six wingers outscored Bozak?
Why am I comparing two different positions?

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04-15-2013, 04:44 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
So in your opinion, there are less than 60 top six c's, yet the Leafs are supposed to have two of them (we have one already) and one of the deepest top 6 pools of wingers in the game?

Bozak isn't our primary source of offence like many of the centers you are naming. Our wingers are our top scorers. Yet he's still scoring at a lower top three higher top 6 last year, and in the lower top three this year.


By the way, he's top 80 in scoring THIS year, assuming only 5 dmen in there, he is scoring among the top liners in the game.

Statistically, he is a top line scorer, no matter how you try to twist it.
Definitely. Look at the teams that have won the SC, they have all had better centres than us.

Like I said, there is an uneven distribution of legitimate top 6 centres in the league, and winning the SC typically takes having two centres of that calibre.

Theres a reason why Pittsburgh, LA, Boston, SJ, etc have all been good teams for a while, and reasons why teams like Tor, Clb, Cal, etc have not been. And part of that has to do with the fact that those teams have traditionally had much better centres.

The mere fact that youre trying to argue that Bozak is maybe somewhat close to the bottom end statistically of a top line player, shows that he's not a legitimate top line player. If he was, there wouldnt be any debate.

Look at his stats given some actual context (he played with two PPG players last year... But personally he couldnt crack 50 points. He also gets a disproportionally high number of secondary assists, which is usually an indication of overinflated stats due to your linemates). Here's a decent article on him, http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/02/16...e-tyler-bozak/

Seriously. Put Chris Kelly between Kessel and Lupul or Kessel and JVR, and im sure Kelly could put up 45-50 points. Matt Stajan put up 50+ points when he was in Toronto, without playing with Kessel on the wing. Were you one of the fans back then grasping at straws trying to argue that he was "statistically in the top 30 centres in the league, therefore blah blah blah"? Because statistically, no matter how you twist it, Matt Stajan was a significantly better centre for us than Bozak has been

If the way you define players and how good they are is by going to NHL.com/stats, and then sorting stats for centres, and then ignoring all context, linemates, PP time, which teams have which centres, what else those players bring to the table, who was injured that year, who was having off years versus careeer years, etc... Then not many people are going to take your opinion very seriously.

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04-15-2013, 05:05 AM
  #204
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Bozak Kadri Mcclement are our guys! Theres no one in free agency that is gonna help us... Maybe Weiss but why screw with the chemistry Bozak and Kessel have plus Bozaks more of a carlyle type player... He is not a bad 1st line center as long as we have 2 lines producing offense for us with a 3rd that chips in we will be fine.. We have a strong offensive blueline especially with Gardiner and Rielly developing so the D will chip in a lot too.. Nothing to worry about offensivley, i think Mac Kulemin and Frattin are all mediocre top six wingers who can fill in on a Kadri Lupul second line. Right now we have a pretty strong team... I think we could do some damage in the playoffs if everything goes well..aka goaltending and consistency to do what we have done this season.

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04-15-2013, 05:16 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Rielly4 View Post
Bozak Kadri Mcclement are our guys! Theres no one in free agency that is gonna help us... Maybe Weiss but why screw with the chemistry Bozak and Kessel have plus Bozaks more of a carlyle type player...
Ive never really understood why people say this....

This year, Bozak has had the primary assist on 4 out of Kessels 15 goals.
Last season.. 8 out of 37.

When Kessel played with Savard? 20 out of 36 were primary assists by Savard..

Sure, there may not be any good options for us to find as an upgrade over Bozak in the next year or so, but eventually we will need to find an upgrade.

But there's really no evidence at all that Kessel and Bozak have good chemistry... Its essentially Kessel puts up big numbers despite Bozak, not because of Bozak...

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04-15-2013, 08:15 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Ive never really understood why people say this....

This year, Bozak has had the primary assist on 4 out of Kessels 15 goals.
Last season.. 8 out of 37.

When Kessel played with Savard? 20 out of 36 were primary assists by Savard..

Sure, there may not be any good options for us to find as an upgrade over Bozak in the next year or so, but eventually we will need to find an upgrade.

But there's really no evidence at all that Kessel and Bozak have good chemistry... Its essentially Kessel puts up big numbers despite Bozak, not because of Bozak...
no person has spoke more truer words on this board.

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04-15-2013, 08:21 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Grabo's contract will push Bozak's to the 5 million per range with us.

Grabo's poor season makes signing Bozak more critical.

Grabo will be a 3rd line c making 5.5 next season, he will be be gone sometime next season or the summer of 2014 if he his play doesn't rebound to where it was the previous couple seasons.

My 2 cents.
Let Bozak go UFA and if another team offers him 5+ he can sign there.

If he's worth it to another team he's worth it.

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04-15-2013, 08:32 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Let Bozak go UFA and if another team offers him 5+ he can sign there.

If he's worth it to another team he's worth it.
3.75m

The point about Stajan being better then Bozak is true, it hard to believe but so true.

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04-15-2013, 09:01 AM
  #209
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Leafs will stay in tact. I see this team going a couple of rounds considering that there is only one team (Penguins) that dominate the Leafs.

The East is weak. If the Leafs extend the postseason, this team will stay in tact.

There are no good players out there.

Grabo will bounce back next season and earn his money.

Bozak is one of the main pieces of our PK.

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04-15-2013, 09:18 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Ive never really understood why people say this....

This year, Bozak has had the primary assist on 4 out of Kessels 15 goals.
Last season.. 8 out of 37.

When Kessel played with Savard? 20 out of 36 were primary assists by Savard..

Sure, there may not be any good options for us to find as an upgrade over Bozak in the next year or so, but eventually we will need to find an upgrade.

But there's really no evidence at all that Kessel and Bozak have good chemistry... Its essentially Kessel puts up big numbers despite Bozak, not because of Bozak...
Thank you for displaying what some can see just by watching. It's a total myth, that Bozak has any significant effect on Kessel's play/production.

Out of curiosity, I wonder what his numbers would be the other way (Kessel --> Bozak)

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04-15-2013, 09:19 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
3.75m

The point about Stajan being better then Bozak is true, it hard to believe but so true.
Stajan is superior defensively.
all you have to do is watch.

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04-15-2013, 09:32 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Thank you for displaying what some can see just by watching. It's a total myth, that Bozak has any significant effect on Kessel's play/production.

Out of curiosity, I wonder what his numbers would be the other way (Kessel --> Bozak)
Kessel got the primary assist on 7 of Bozaks 18 goals last season and 6 out of 12 this season. So 43.3% of Bozaks goals had Kessel as a the primary assist over the past two seasons, while 23.1% of Kessels goals over that time came from Bozak.

Kessel makes Bozak better. Bozak is just along for the ride. Which is fine, he looks like he could actually be a pretty effective 3rd line C. But it's annoying when people act like Bozak is a great top 6 forward, like he has good "chemistry" with Kessel, and/or that he deserves 5M+, or even 4.5M+. His comparables should be guys like Chris Kelly, Jarret Stoll, etc. Who make 3-3.5M.

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04-15-2013, 09:33 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Stajan is superior defensively.
all you have to do is watch.
Bozak is superior at standing up

But yea, there's really no evidence that Bozak is doing better for us currently than Stajan did. Stajan put up better points while not playing with Kessel.

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04-15-2013, 09:46 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Kessel got the primary assist on 7 of Bozaks 18 goals last season and 6 out of 12 this season. So 43.3% of Bozaks goals had Kessel as a the primary assist over the past two seasons, while 23.1% of Kessels goals over that time came from Bozak.

Kessel makes Bozak better. Bozak is just along for the ride. Which is fine, he looks like he could actually be a pretty effective 3rd line C. But it's annoying when people act like Bozak is a great top 6 forward, like he has good "chemistry" with Kessel, and/or that he deserves 5M+, or even 4.5M+. His comparables should be guys like Chris Kelly, Jarret Stoll, etc. Who make 3-3.5M.
This last paragraph is truth.

The myth of his chemistry with Kessel has been beaten to death. He is a 3rd line guy, put in the position to play with 1st line wingers, and despite this opportunity, his numbers still don't show evidence of him being worth any more than 3-3.5M.

In reality, his defense is good, not great, and his playmaking is average. The 3rd line, with a $3-3.5M contract is where this guy should be. If not, let him see if he gets anywhere near the opportunity for more money somewhere else. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't get near the luxury.

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04-15-2013, 10:25 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
Leafs will stay in tact. I see this team going a couple of rounds considering that there is only one team (Penguins) that dominate the Leafs.
Wait...what?

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04-15-2013, 10:39 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
This last paragraph is truth.

The myth of his chemistry with Kessel has been beaten to death. He is a 3rd line guy, put in the position to play with 1st line wingers, and despite this opportunity, his numbers still don't show evidence of him being worth any more than 3-3.5M.

In reality, his defense is good, not great, and his playmaking is average. The 3rd line, with a $3-3.5M contract is where this guy should be. If not, let him see if he gets anywhere near the opportunity for more money somewhere else. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't get near the luxury.
I mentioned before about him maybe not even being a center and that maybe his face-off skill has masked this. I don't think he has great vision which is something that is common with bottom 6 types, even the most skilled ones, like Peca and Staal where they can be moved to a top line and still be somewhat effective, but they can't sustain a ton of point production in that role. The other thing is if you move a natural winger to center, in addition the the lack of face-off ability, they typically start producing less. Or moving a player from one wing to the other. Some thrive and some can't adapt. Or when you start playing a 3rd pairing defenseman beyond his comfort left for minutes and his game sags. It isn't magic and it isn't certainly isn't Bozak specific. Players used in the wrong role are never as productive. I don't think they have ever spent much time looking at TB as anything other than a
center have they? Nonis isn't taking my calls though so it seems like his future with the team is predicated on being Kessels center. If he can do better in another role or position, we will only find out if he leaves the Leafs.

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04-15-2013, 10:29 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
I would rather sacrifice the 5-10 points Weiss would maybe give us and keep Bozak over Weiss. He's more durable, dependable and has established chemistry with Phil Kessel. The only way you let Bozak leave is if you have a significant upgrade - Weiss is not. My number 1 target is still Stastny and if they draft Lindholm or Mackinon that leaves them with (Duchene-Lindhom-O'reilly) Stastny is as good as gone. Bozak at 3.5-4.0 and you keep him without thinking. Any more and you consider letting him walk.
Stasny is owed $6.6 million next year.
You want that???
Stasny is no better offensively than Bozak and far less dependable as a 2 way player.
Stasny scored 57 points and 53 points and is on pace in a full season to score 43 points this year.
Dude has regressed for 3 straight years after getting an inflated contract.
I would stay FAR away.

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04-16-2013, 01:16 AM
  #218
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A lot of people are saying sign Bozak and then move him off the first line which sort of defeats the purpose of signing him in the first place if you ask me.

The Leafs would be smart to sign Bozak and Kadri to contracts where their salary and cap hit go up each year. That way we don't need to worry about cap pressure from their contracts until Komisarek and Connolly are gone next year and management has had one more season to look at Grabovski.

A lot of people seem to think Grabovski can only play under Wilson's brand of hockey but he was a key man for the Hamilton Bulldogs when they won the Calder Cup in 2007. The year after that he had 8 goals and 20 points in his first 12 games before being called up by the Montreal Canadiens. There he clashed with players and coaches, his output dropped and he was sent to Toronto for virtually nothing. This year he played on the top line in Moscow with Pavel Dastyuk (he had 24 points in 29 games) before the lockout ended. If you want to be objective, that's two systems of hockey he hasn't succeeded under (including this year under Carlyle) and three systems where he's done very well for himself. All of this assumes the system is the problem to begin with, which may not be the case.

He'll probably never be worth the 5.5 million but I'm very worried that we'll ship him off for nothing and this year will just turn out to be a slump. Buying him out means taking an annual cap hit of 1.8 million so replacing him and improving the team will have to involve finding a better centre for 3.7 million (or else we've paid more for less). Unless of course, we find a WAY better centre and don't mind spending more than 5.5 million overall. I don't think we'll be able to do that in the off season so I say we try to keep what we have and see how it all pans out in the first few months of next season.


Last edited by GrabsOverHabs: 04-16-2013 at 01:57 AM. Reason: added information
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04-16-2013, 01:48 AM
  #219
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Why am I comparing two different positions?
Because the two positions when it comes to offensive isn't that different. The big difference between the centre and winger is the ability to backcheck. Heck, Bozak could even be asked to play on wing and he'd score at a top-six level.

Speaking of Mat Stajan, he didn't produce big numbers when tried with Iginla. I can see Bozak being a similar player, his offensive production would be more-or-less stable on any team. Poni is no different in that regard.

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04-16-2013, 02:13 AM
  #220
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Stasny is owed $6.6 million next year.
You want that???
Stasny is no better offensively than Bozak and far less dependable as a 2 way player.
Stasny scored 57 points and 53 points and is on pace in a full season to score 43 points this year.
Dude has regressed for 3 straight years after getting an inflated contract.
I would stay FAR away.
Bingo. Stastny is a waste of time. I'd rather just put Colborne up there. During the off season, he could be put into an intensive program where he can improve his skating. It can be easily done.

As for Bozak, he's not going to be signed as a third line player. He will be signed to play on the first line or allowed to leave. Our third line checking guy is Jay McClement. That other line is called a sheltered scoring line not a 3rd line. In other words, similar to Kadri's line in the beginning of the season.

JVR - Big C - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - Kulemin
Biggs (off-wing) - Colborne - Frattin
McClaren - McClement - Komarov
Orr

If we can't find that C, just use Colborne. He's going to develop into a second line C and he is more crafty than Couts. Instead, McClement can centre the sheltered line. Whoever will replace Steckel during the off-season is on the 4C.

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04-16-2013, 06:19 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Ive never really understood why people say this....

This year, Bozak has had the primary assist on 4 out of Kessels 15 goals.
Last season.. 8 out of 37.

When Kessel played with Savard? 20 out of 36 were primary assists by Savard..

Sure, there may not be any good options for us to find as an upgrade over Bozak in the next year or so, but eventually we will need to find an upgrade.

But there's really no evidence at all that Kessel and Bozak have good chemistry... Its essentially Kessel puts up big numbers despite Bozak, not because of Bozak...
It's obvious 416, so many of the lovers don't have a clue whats going on, so they just parrot the buzz words used from the sports shows.

Don't get too concerned, there is a reason DN has not signed TB .


Last edited by Faltorvo: 04-16-2013 at 06:44 AM.
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04-16-2013, 06:20 AM
  #222
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I just don't get why people are so offended by the notion of paying Bozak $5m. It's probably right around his market value, maybe a little high, but not offensive. The guy is our #1 centre, has chemistry with our #1 winger, plays more than any other forward on our team, and the only player in the league who's taken more faceoffs than he has is Claude Giroux.

People act like we've got a better alternative. Newsflash. Ryan Getzlaf signed. The available UFAs are Stephen Weiss, Derek Roy, and Mike Ribeiro. The only guy who MIGHT be a better #1 for us than Bozak would Weiss, and he's undoubtedly going to cost more, plus come with an injury history.

In talking about building a winner, it starts with retaining the players contributing to your success. Bozak is certainly in that group. If the cap becomes an issue for us, the $5.5m Mikhail Grabovski is the one to target.

I'd hope for a contract similar to that of David Desharnais, but, realistically, we're clearly better off with Bozak as long as he makes less than Mikhail Grabovski.

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04-16-2013, 06:39 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
This last paragraph is truth.

The myth of his chemistry with Kessel has been beaten to death. He is a 3rd line guy, put in the position to play with 1st line wingers, and despite this opportunity, his numbers still don't show evidence of him being worth any more than 3-3.5M.

In reality, his defense is good, not great, and his playmaking is average. The 3rd line, with a $3-3.5M contract is where this guy should be. If not, let him see if he gets anywhere near the opportunity for more money somewhere else. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't get near the luxury.
No thanks, we have McLem at 3rd C and at the proper pay.

Boz either gets 4th line C $ or the door will be his to use.

Shocking report, TB has only 1 more 5/5 point than McLem.

Starting to think McLem could slot in with Kes/JVR even better then TB.

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04-16-2013, 06:47 AM
  #224
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I just don't get why people are so offended by the notion of paying Bozak $5m. It's probably right around his market value, maybe a little high, but not offensive. The guy is our #1 centre, has chemistry with our #1 winger, plays more than any other forward on our team, and the only player in the league who's taken more faceoffs than he has is Claude Giroux.

People act like we've got a better alternative. Newsflash. Ryan Getzlaf signed. The available UFAs are Stephen Weiss, Derek Roy, and Mike Ribeiro. The only guy who MIGHT be a better #1 for us than Bozak would Weiss, and he's undoubtedly going to cost more, plus come with an injury history.

In talking about building a winner, it starts with retaining the players contributing to your success. Bozak is certainly in that group. If the cap becomes an issue for us, the $5.5m Mikhail Grabovski is the one to target.

I'd hope for a contract similar to that of David Desharnais, but, realistically, we're clearly better off with Bozak as long as he makes less than Mikhail Grabovski.
Very solid post I couldn't agree more.

Bozak is an easy re sign for reasons stated above. The Leafs have zero issues at center (finally).

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04-16-2013, 06:49 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I just don't get why people are so offended by the notion of paying Bozak $5m. It's probably right around his market value, maybe a little high, but not offensive. The guy is our #1 centre, has chemistry with our #1 winger, plays more than any other forward on our team, and the only player in the league who's taken more faceoffs than he has is Claude Giroux.

People act like we've got a better alternative. Newsflash. Ryan Getzlaf signed. The available UFAs are Stephen Weiss, Derek Roy, and Mike Ribeiro. The only guy who MIGHT be a better #1 for us than Bozak would Weiss, and he's undoubtedly going to cost more, plus come with an injury history.

In talking about building a winner, it starts with retaining the players contributing to your success. Bozak is certainly in that group. If the cap becomes an issue for us, the $5.5m Mikhail Grabovski is the one to target.

I'd hope for a contract similar to that of David Desharnais, but, realistically, we're clearly better off with Bozak as long as he makes less than Mikhail Grabovski.

Building a winner means that on the way up, you don't get suckered into bad contracts.

If mediocre players won't settle for mediocre contracts, then they are shown the door.


If there was no cap, i would not care one lick what we pay him, but seeing that we are one of the very few teams that has not tied up key players to long term back diver deals, we will have to be extra diligent when it comes to signing guys.

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