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Best young top-6 forward available for Cory Schneider

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Old
04-15-2013, 01:56 AM
  #176
JohnHodgson
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Actually it makes a world of a difference lol...the goalie and defensemen markets are completely different. More teams need top 4 Ds than they need goalies. And for the goalies value thing, the reason we don't see many trades involving starters is because they're just picked up during UFA or have been drafted by their current team...but when they are traded its usually for low.

Anaheim - Signed undrafted Hiller
Boston - Traded for Rask, paid high (Andrew Raycroft)
Buffalo - Drafted Miller
Calgary - Traded for Kipper, paid low (2nd round)
Carolina - Drafted Ward
Chicago - Drafted Crawford/signed UFA Emery
Colorado - Traded for Varlamov, paid high (1st round)
Columbus - Traded for Bobrovsky (vezina candidate), paid low (2nd round + 4th round)
Dallas - Traded for Lehtonen, paid low (Vishnevskiy + 4th round)
Edmonton - Drafted Dubnyk
Florida - Drafted Markstrom
Los Angeles - Drafted Quick
Minnesota - Drafted Backstrom
Montreal - Drafted Price
Nashville - Drafted Rinne
New Jersey - Drafted Brodeur
NYI - Signed Nabokov UFA/waivers
NYR - Drafted Lundqvist
Ottawa - Traded for Anderson, paid low (Brian Elliott)
Philadelphia - signed UFA Bryz
Phoenix - Signed UFA Mike Smith
Pittsburgh - Drafted Fleury, traded for Vokoun (7th round)
San Jose - Signed UFA Niemi
St Louis - Traded for Halak, paid low (Eller) and signed UFA Elliott
Tampa Bay - Traded for Bishop, paid low (Conacher)
Toronto - Drafted Reimer
Vancouver - Draftet Schneider, traded for Luongo and paid high (Bertuzzi)
Washington - Drafted Holtby
Winnipeg - Drafted Pavalec

So yeah...safe to say most starters (if not drafted) are either signed as UFAs or traded for cheap with the exception of Luongo, Varlamov and Rask. I'd say Schneider would get something in between Varlamov and the rest of the goalies.

Also, keep in mind that Luongo and Rask were dealt over 7 years ago, the market has changed since and most goalies are either signed as a UFA or simply traded for the usual 2nd or worse with the exception of Varlamov.
This whole goalie market is non-existent/small is completely false. People like to become sheep and follow what everyone says despite cold hard facts proving that the goalie market exists. Colorado gave up the 11th overall pick for Varlamov, a goalie who had 53 starts in a span of 3 years, had a .917 career percentage and also several injury concerns. Ben Bishop (career .912 save percentage) who had one good year (13 games played), got a leading calder candidate Cory Conacher. Lindback (a nobody before last year, played decent in a small amount of games in Nashville) got 2 2nd round picks, and a 3rd round pick. Schneider's value would be sky high, especially what he has been doing this year.

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04-15-2013, 02:04 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
What homer comments? lol

In this draft think he could fetch a very late 1st rounder at best, I think most people would agree Varlamov may have been worth a 1st rounder but he definitely wasn't worth a 9th overall. And what does Regehr have to do with a goalie trade?


Anders Lindback gets 2 2nd round picks and a third round pick (which is arguably worth mroe than a late first), but Schneider is lucky to get a late first rounder. Now think about what you said for a second, and go back to being someone who lacks any knowledge about hockey.

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04-15-2013, 03:35 AM
  #178
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And to be honest, I have a strong feeling that Roy will walk in the offseason, moving Henrique and Schroeder up a spot, and that allows us to shore up our depth positions.
I'm indifferent to the goaltending situation at this point but while that forward line is sexy. A top six with Cam Baker is cringe-worthy. And as Sergei pointed out, Tanev will want more than 1.2M. I doubt we could keep Roy in this scenario. If he does walk, well we move Kesler back to centre and maybe shop for a winger. Or do as you suggested. I'd say whether we could get Roy before pulling any triggers though.

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04-15-2013, 03:58 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
This whole goalie market is non-existent/small is completely false. People like to become sheep and follow what everyone says despite cold hard facts proving that the goalie market exists. Colorado gave up the 11th overall pick for Varlamov, a goalie who had 53 starts in a span of 3 years, had a .917 career percentage and also several injury concerns. Ben Bishop (career .912 save percentage) who had one good year (13 games played), got a leading calder candidate Cory Conacher. Lindback (a nobody before last year, played decent in a small amount of games in Nashville) got 2 2nd round picks, and a 3rd round pick. Schneider's value would be sky high, especially what he has been doing this year.
Exactly.

The issue isn't that the goalie market is negligible, it is that it fluctuates wildly because with only 30 starting spots in the league, demand is extremely elastic.

Any team can use another top 6 forward or top 4 d-man because there are 180 top 6 forward spots and 120 top 4 d-man spots in the NHL.

Come the off-season, goalie demand is going to shoot back up while there are multiple teams in need of starters and other teams considering maneuvering for upgrades.

Schneider's value is extremely high. It came out that Colorado offered their pick for him before they went to Washington and the offer was obviously turned down(wisely it would seem). To think that his value is a late first - what he was drafted with years ago - is silly. That would be to say that all the development and at this point, actual production is worth nothing.

Furthermore, Luongo has only been proven to be immovable so far. Things change. As I already said, the goalie market fluctuates wildly and there will be an actual full off-season this year. There will be many teams with needs and the Canucks are not going to be as picky about the return when the cap space can immediately be flipped for tangible assets in free agency. I don't think he is immovable at all. There are teams that don't spend to the cap for which his cap penalty upon retirement is no issue. His term is a risk, but one that teams are still willing to take when given actual production. He has value(admittedly dwindling considering Van's situation), it is a matter of the market demand rising to meet that falling value.

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04-15-2013, 04:18 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
This whole goalie market is non-existent/small is completely false. People like to become sheep and follow what everyone says despite cold hard facts proving that the goalie market exists. Colorado gave up the 11th overall pick for Varlamov, a goalie who had 53 starts in a span of 3 years, had a .917 career percentage and also several injury concerns. Ben Bishop (career .912 save percentage) who had one good year (13 games played), got a leading calder candidate Cory Conacher. Lindback (a nobody before last year, played decent in a small amount of games in Nashville) got 2 2nd round picks, and a 3rd round pick. Schneider's value would be sky high, especially what he has been doing this year.
In case you forgot the general public thought Colorado overpaid for Varlamov, the reactions were hilarious in fact but I'll give you that one...Varlamov was sold high but they didn't trade an 11th overall like you claim they did, they actually gave up a 1st round pick in 2012 which turned out to become an 11th pick overall, huge difference.

As for the Conacher for Bishop trade, it was no overpayment from either side, it's mostly equal imo. It's been said over and over again, Conacher got most his points while he was playing with Stamkos and St-Louis, he got taken off that line and his production dipped...in fact in his last 22 games he only has 6 points and he is not doing great with the sens either right now.

The Lindback trade included two 2nds from 2012 and one third in 2013...I would say that's pretty much what Schneider is worth to be honest, I hadn't thought of it that way. Both goalies are inexperienced (though Schneider has more GP), neither have ever played more than half a season so they're unproven over the course of a full season but they both have good potential.

And how is the small goalie market thing non-existent...can you provide more than 1 example (the Varlamov one). I kind of provided you with a huge list...I'd say what Bishop and Lindback returned is just about fair market value, Varlamov was clearly an overpayment.

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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post


Anders Lindback gets 2 2nd round picks and a third round pick (which is arguably worth mroe than a late first), but Schneider is lucky to get a late first rounder. Now think about what you said for a second, and go back to being someone who lacks any knowledge about hockey.
stay classy


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04-15-2013, 06:46 AM
  #181
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In case you forgot the general public thought Colorado overpaid for Varlamov, the reactions were hilarious in fact but I'll give you that one...Varlamov was sold high but they didn't trade an 11th overall like you claim they did, they actually gave up a 1st round pick in 2012 which turned out to become an 11th pick overall, huge difference.

As for the Conacher for Bishop trade, it was no overpayment from either side, it's mostly equal imo. It's been said over and over again, Conacher got most his points while he was playing with Stamkos and St-Louis, he got taken off that line and his production dipped...in fact in his last 22 games he only has 6 points and he is not doing great with the sens either right now.

The Lindback trade included two 2nds from 2012 and one third in 2013...I would say that's pretty much what Schneider is worth to be honest, I hadn't thought of it that way. Both goalies are inexperienced (though Schneider has more GP), neither have ever played more than half a season so they're unproven over the course of a full season but they both have good potential.

And how is the small goalie market thing non-existent...can you provide more than 1 example (the Varlamov one). I kind of provided you with a huge list...I'd say what Bishop and Lindback returned is just about fair market value, Varlamov was clearly an overpayment.
Varlamov was traded for a 1st (the Avs and everyone else knew they weren't and weren't going to be a top team) and a 2nd, presumably after the Canucks rebuffed Colorado's attempts to trade for Schneider.

Schneider = Lindback/Bishop? Insane.

In 42 NHL games, never as the #1 goaltender, Bishop has a save % of .912 and a GAA of 2.67.

In 59 NHL games, with now 21 games as a #1 goalie, Lindback has a save % of .910 and a GAA of 2.66. His stats were slightly better at the time of the trade - somewhere around .914 SV% and a 2.5 GAA.

In 94 NHL games, having over the course of last season wrestled the starting position from a proven high quality NHL goaltender with 744 career starts, Schneider has a save % of .927 and a GAA of 2.21. He has seen action in 8 playoff games with a save % of .940 and a GAA of 1.91.

I would argue he is exponentially more proven than either Lindback or Bishop at the time of their trades. I would also argue that he is flat out statistically superior.

All that goes without saying that NHL GMs don't simply check the stats of goalies:

Quote:
"In Semyon Varlamov we are acquiring a highly touted NHL goaltender," Avalanche general manager Greg Sherman said. "At 23 years old, he is regarded as a solid and talented netminder by our staff. We definitely feel we have addressed our top priority this offseason and for many years to come."
They watch and have paid employees breakdown their game.

The eye test is in favor of Schneider as well. You watch him and he looks like an elite goalie - elite positioning, elite side to side movement, amazing efficiency of movement, always in control.... etc.

And that is over more than a season's worth of games at the NHL level, including at least two (going by memory) stretches of about 10 games straight in separate seasons. This year the Canucks forward corps has undergone constant injuries. They have lacked the faceoff ability of years past (27th in the league this year) and their possession game has been abysmal for most of the season. Schneider has been the best player this year on a team that has hardly been able to play up to its own system.

NHL GMs know what Schneider is worth and it is a lot more than Lindback, Bishop, a couple 2nds or Conacher. None of that approaches the value he has proven.

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04-15-2013, 08:11 AM
  #182
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Although OP says "young," this appears to be a win now strategy discussion to employ if Lou cannot be moved and Vancouver is unwilling to buy him out. If that is true, would ask you to consider Buffalo sending Vanek at 1/2 salary and Vancouver adds a prospect (e.g. Gaunce) to Schneider (picks to balance between clubs if needed). This deal allows Vancouver to upgrade for next season by putting a highly proven goal machine on the wing with Lou (an elite goalie from all accounts from Vancouver posters in these trade forums) in goal instead of Lou (as a backup) and Schneider in goal. This offer results in Vancouver gaining elite level talent to address a team weakness for what is essentially 1 of 2 players currently playing in a position for Vancouver where only one can play with - even worse - a cap impact from that 2 starters in 1 roster spot situation which handcuffs win now FA and deadline day trades for improvement by Vancouver. Despite earlier posts in this thread saying that the cap impact is not a big deal, that much dough tied up in goalies definitely impacts non-goalie improvements in a win now environment for a team that is a Cup contender and wants to improve to better the odds of success (which costs $'s in cap space).

Edit: Why does MG do this? I think it's his job if he can't find a way to either get rid of Luongo while stabilizing the team for long term yet keeping it competitive at high level OR win a cup. I think he will go with trying to win a cup now. This move reflects that win now path. Maybe not what fans want but I can see MG doing something like this if he can't offload Luongo or buy him out.


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04-15-2013, 09:06 AM
  #183
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I can almost guarantee you the Canucks will never trade with the Leafs for another decade at least. You can bet on it. So dont worry about Schneider.

I think your plan to develop Remier is a good one, but I caution you on Bernier. He has been given VERY sheltered minutes behind a great defensive team to showcase for trade. At age 25, he is not a goalie capable of carrying a franchise. I dont know if he will ever become more than a mediocre starter for a second tier team.
Bernier has succeeded at every level which is why he was drafted as a high 1st rounder. His situation is really no different then Schneiders. Your argument I'm guessing is that Cory is more proven because he is the #1 goalie and has been for two years while Bernier has never been that guy.
That may be a fair assessment but I'm willing to bet Bernier has all star potential. Just watching him play is proof enough for me. He lacks ideal size but has all the other variables.
Van is not trading Schneider so that pretty much makes Bernier the first option in the offseason.
Lu just doesn't make any sense to me.

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04-15-2013, 09:19 AM
  #184
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I guess we just disagree on the value of Conacher. Imo the difference between Schneider and Bishop is comparable to the difference between Conacher and most of the players I listed.
And points don't tell the whole story. Just take a look at Brad Boyes numbers this year.

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04-15-2013, 11:28 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
I'm pretty sure it isn't bad management when this guy has shown himself to be an elite goaltender.

If Schneider wasn't capable of this, he wouldn't be here. He has proven even with Luongo here that he is capable.

I don't see how its bad management when the guy is fully capable.v
Well, let me put it to you this way in another situation:

32 year old former Vezina Trophy winning goalie posts 33 games played, a GAA of 2.69 and a SV% of .907 and has come off some spotty playoff seasons as well as a conference finals appearance and a Stanley Cup finals appearance a few years before.

Then you have a 27 year old backup who has posted up a 41 games, 2.16 GAA and SV% of .927.

To make things worse , the understudy has posted superior GAA and SV% the year before, while two years back, the backup had a superior SV% and a slightly higher GAA.

Seems rather obvious that the understudy is ready to take over.

Well, in this case, the veteran washup is Ed Belfour in Chicago, and his young backup is Jeff Hackett. Belfour lands in Dallas eventually and wins a cup and plays another decade of Hall of Fame hockey, while Jeff Hackett tops out as a slightly above average starter.

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04-15-2013, 11:43 AM
  #186
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I'm indifferent to the goaltending situation at this point but while that forward line is sexy. A top six with Cam Baker is cringe-worthy. And as Sergei pointed out, Tanev will want more than 1.2M. I doubt we could keep Roy in this scenario. If he does walk, well we move Kesler back to centre and maybe shop for a winger. Or do as you suggested. I'd say whether we could get Roy before pulling any triggers though.
Any trade would be in the offseason, so we would likely know where we stand with Roy. Also, I could be wrong, but I think Henrique has also played wing.

I don't think Tanev will get much more than ~1.2 mil, but that's just me.

EDIT: If we do retain Roy, we might be best off simply trying to get the highest draft pick we can.


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04-15-2013, 01:17 PM
  #187
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You should have left JVR off the OP. It would have made this thread a lot more readable.

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04-15-2013, 08:11 PM
  #188
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Isles would trade Strome for Schneider in a heartbeat.

Strome could be a great player down the line but the Isles are reliant on a keeper pushing forty years old and Snow loves Americans, Swiss and guys with ties to New England and Schneider is all three.

How about Strome, DeHaan and Dipietro (who Vancouver can afford to amnesty buyout) for Schneider and a #5pick?

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04-15-2013, 08:14 PM
  #189
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Isles would trade Strome for Schneider in a heartbeat.

Strome could be a great player down the line but the Isles are reliant on a keeper pushing forty years old and Snow loves Americans, Swiss and guys with ties to New England and Schneider is all three.

How about Strome, DeHaan and Dipietro (who Vancouver can afford to amnesty buyout) for Schneider and a #5pick?
I would do that. The only thing I'm not sure about is if we're allowed to buy out DiPietro after trading for him, but it meets our needs and seems fair valuewise to me.

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04-15-2013, 08:38 PM
  #190
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Isles would trade Strome for Schneider in a heartbeat.

Strome could be a great player down the line but the Isles are reliant on a keeper pushing forty years old and Snow loves Americans, Swiss and guys with ties to New England and Schneider is all three.

How about Strome, DeHaan and Dipietro (who Vancouver can afford to amnesty buyout) for Schneider and a #5pick?
Isles would not 'trade Strome for Schneider in a heartbeat'.

Isles are faced with 2 top 6 forward spots, that the local press says Snow hopes can be filled internally: 1st line rw and 2nd line center.

With Moulson scheduled to become a ufa in 2014, Snow may have another 1st line spot open.

Nabokov's 37, not pushing 40. Local press reported a) Isles most skilled goalie prospect was diagnosed with a B12 issue, but is expected to fully recover and b) Snow wants to sign Nabby to an extension.

Isles will either pay Dipietro's $1.5m per buyout, like they paid Yashin's buyout, Witt's buyout and Bates buyout. With Wang looking to sell the team, he's not on the hook for that $1.5m. The next owner will be.

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04-15-2013, 09:57 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Not that I'm saying we should trade Schneider, but I think Vancouver should at least be listening to offers on him if Luongo is really as unmoveable as all that.

So, following in line with the Bishop-Conacher trade, I think trading him for something around a young top-6er or potential top-6er would make the most sense for us.

Some guys I would be looking at:

Ryan Strome
JVR
Evgeni Kuznetsov
Sean Couturier
Adam Henrique
Sven Baertschi

Would a deal around one of these players(or someone else?) make sense for the other team?
Well the Caps and Leafs seem to have young goalies worth keeping for now, so I think you can cancel out Kuznetsov and JVR. Calgary needs goaltending, but they also lack star power up front. They simply need to acquire draft picks and build up depth, so Baertschi is someone they should keep even if it means missing out on a goalie.

That leaves Henrique, Couturier, and Strome. Will Marty come back? That does matter. Is Bryz done in Philly? I am not so sure he is despite so much chatter. He was hung out to dry a lot. Strome is a great young prospect, but perhaps the Isles would part with him? I vote Strome most likely, but I also think Lu is moving and not Schneider.

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04-15-2013, 11:23 PM
  #192
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To reply to the OP, I think those players suggested for Schnieds are actually quite fair...as a Flyer fan though, I am loathe to trade Couts right now when his value is down...he is only going to get better for us...

Otherwise, I think Schnieds could get quite a bit....in fact I do not understand why the Canucks simply do not hang onto Lou and trade Schnieds?

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04-15-2013, 11:45 PM
  #193
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I think there will be a few teams bidding for Schneider in the offseason as long as his numbers are alright.

I was all for trading luongo but trading Schneider is now the best move for the franchise.

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04-16-2013, 05:56 AM
  #194
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Isles would trade Strome for Schneider in a heartbeat.

Strome could be a great player down the line but the Isles are reliant on a keeper pushing forty years old and Snow loves Americans, Swiss and guys with ties to New England and Schneider is all three.

How about Strome, DeHaan and Dipietro (who Vancouver can afford to amnesty buyout) for Schneider and a #5pick?
No way would NYI trade Strome

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04-16-2013, 12:17 PM
  #195
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No way would NYI trade Strome
For a franchise keeper? Of course they do. They are very deep with young assets up front and need to address the gaping hole in net when Nabby leaves, which could be in June.

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04-16-2013, 12:37 PM
  #196
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For a franchise keeper? Of course they do. They are very deep with young assets up front and need to address the gaping hole in net when Nabby leaves, which could be in June.
No they won't. No matter how many times opposing fans toss Strome's name in their proposals

Isles have plenty of good prospects, but they lack elite prospects. Strome has that elite potential.

Brock Nelson-Isles front office reportedly loves the 6'4 Nelson's defense, pk work and size. His upside is 2nd liner.

Nino-Isles think his development is back on track. His immaturity and sense of entitlement should be a concern.

Kabanov-2nd/3rd line potential. Coming off a yr in which he had arm surgery and is rumored to still be suffering nerve damage.

Ullstrom/Sundstrom/Lee/Persson- 2nd/3rd line potential.

Btw, Nabby says he wants to stay. Snow says he wants to keep him. If Nabby prices himself off the island, there will be quite a few goalies available this summer.
Isles aren't trading Strome to land a goalie.


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04-16-2013, 01:04 PM
  #197
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No they won't. No matter how many times opposing fans toss Strome's name in their proposals

Isles have plenty of good prospects, but they lack elite prospects. Strome has that elite potential.

Brock Nelson-Isles front office reportedly loves the 6'4 Nelson's defense, pk work and size. His upside is 2nd liner.

Nino-Isles think his development is back on track. His immaturity and sense of entitlement should be a concern.

Kabanov-2nd/3rd line potential. Coming off a yr in which he had arm surgery and is rumored to still be suffering nerve damage.

Ullstrom/Sundstrom/Lee/Persson- 2nd/3rd line potential.

Btw, Nabby says he wants to stay. Snow says he wants to keep him. If Nabby prices himself off the island, there will be quite a few goalies available this summer.
Isles aren't trading Strome to land a goalie.
Just because a prospect is very good doesn't mean he won't be traded. I can't say for sure one way or another regarding whether NYI views Strome as untouchable, but given that the Islanders need in goal seems greater than their need for offense, I don't think it's impossible he would be made available.

Strome has elite potential, but so does Schneider, who's also come a lot closer towards reaching that at the NHL level. I wouldn't trade Schneider for any player that didn't have 1st line potential.

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04-16-2013, 02:43 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Just because a prospect is very good doesn't mean he won't be traded. I can't say for sure one way or another regarding whether NYI views Strome as untouchable, but given that the Islanders need in goal seems greater than their need for offense, I don't think it's impossible he would be made available.

Strome has elite potential, but so does Schneider, who's also come a lot closer towards reaching that at the NHL level. I wouldn't trade Schneider for any player that didn't have 1st line potential.
37 yr old Nabby has given them back to back good seasons, along with on ice and locker room leadership. The isles most talented goalie prospect, a 22 yr old Nilson, had an mystery illness that wasn't diagnosed until Feb./March, with the team saying they expect he'll fully recover.

The only ones who seem to think the isles are in some desperate need for goaltending, are fans of teams looking to move a goalie.


In Newsday's trade deadline article, they mentioned a possible influx of prospects next season, Snow's wish to fill team needs internally (in particular 1st line rw and 2nd line center spots). Also, Moulson is a ufa in 2014, creating another possible hole in the roster.

Isles are not giving up Strome for Schneider. They're hoping he's their longterm answer for Tavares rw.


Last edited by CREW99AW: 04-16-2013 at 03:12 PM.
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04-16-2013, 03:18 PM
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HappyGilmourr
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Goaltending is everything so if Reimer never blossomed I would take the bullet and do JVR for CS. So if Reimer blows up next year i'll get back to you.

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