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2013 NHL Entry Draft Talk 6.0

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Old
04-16-2013, 03:07 PM
  #201
Tim Wallach
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
We will be lucky if Bournival is half as good as Carbo, and I say this with high hopes for the man.

Actually, the best option within the next 4ish years to play in a Carbo role if Eller develops his offensive game more will be...Plekanec.
Agreed. I think people forget how bloody good Carbonneau was.

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04-16-2013, 03:08 PM
  #202
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Great and very informative posts. Thanks as always for your interesting feedback.
Any time Frank. I'm lucky enough to see a LOT of OHL hockey, so I can usually give pretty good reports on those kids.

I like the crop this year. Our 2nd round should be fruitful if we don't blow it on too many project picks.

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04-16-2013, 03:08 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
Agreed. I think people forget how bloody good Carbonneau was.
That was a different time, when guys like that could get away with mugging guys like Gretzky Lemieux etc with obstruction and hooking.

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04-16-2013, 03:12 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That was a different time, when guys like that could get away with mugging guys like Gretzky Lemieux etc with obstruction and hooking.
Partly true, but Carbonneau wasn't exactly a 6'4 gorilla. He was as smooth a skater as there was in the league at the time and was about as good a player as I've seen at being in position and recovering on the defensive side of the puck. Plus, he added significant offence.

I remember watching playoff games where my heart rate slowed right down with him on the ice because you knew his line wasn't getting scored on. And to have that, plus the counter-attack ability to pop 50-60 points? Amazing.

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04-16-2013, 03:17 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
Partly true, but Carbonneau wasn't exactly a 6'4 gorilla. He was as smooth a skater as there was in the league at the time and was about as good a player as I've seen at being in position and recovering on the defensive side of the puck. Plus, he added significant offence.

I remember watching playoff games where my heart rate slowed right down with him on the ice because you knew his line wasn't getting scored on. And to have that, plus the counter-attack ability to pop 50-60 points? Amazing.
50-60 points in the 80's is 30-35 in today's NHL. Bournival may never be as good defensively but he can be as good offensively.

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04-16-2013, 03:26 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
We already have beef on the back end...Tinordi Beaulieu Emelin Ellis Pateryn Dietz Didier etc

I have no problem drafting Morin or Diaby but not both...and not unless they are clearly BPA at the pick. In the 1st two rounds you draft for value, that means you draft the player that is on top of your board. If it's pretty even then you take the bigger need. Right now the biggest need we have is more skill up front and maybe a goalie for depth, we have a ton of young d-men, both in terms of quality and quantity.
The problem lies in the fact that the only NHL defenceman youve named is Emelin and he's out with an injury.That says how much depth the Habs have as shutdown Dmen.

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04-16-2013, 03:29 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
The problem lies in the fact that the only NHL defenceman youve named is Emelin and he's out with an injury.That says how much depth the Habs have as shutdown Dmen.
Gorges and Subban are our shutdown d-men right now. Guys like Morin and Diaby won't step right into the NHL either, so you create a logjam of similar players for no good reason.

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04-16-2013, 03:51 PM
  #208
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Gorges and Subban are our shutdown d-men right now. Guys like Morin and Diaby won't step right into the NHL either, so you create a logjam of similar players for no good reason.
Yeah,but where's the beef? There is no player that when the going gets tough,slides in and everybody quiets down,like Larry could?

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04-16-2013, 03:54 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
Yeah,but where's the beef? There is no player that when the going gets tough,slides in and everybody quiets down,like Larry could?
The beef is Emelin and eventually Tinordi.

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04-16-2013, 04:15 PM
  #210
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The beef is Emelin and eventually Tinordi.
Neither of which will be able "to calm the animals at the zoo's" like Larry Robinson could. Without a player that has the ability to squash that behavior the Habs system won't work in the new Stanley Cup Playoffs.The players all acknowledge this fact why don't the owners realize that?Balance is a team thing and when another team can get you off-balance as easy as Boston/Toronto and a host more since watching the Habs humbled on TV can.What's to do? Beef up is what to do!

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Old
04-16-2013, 04:18 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
50-60 points in the 80's is 30-35 in today's NHL. Bournival may never be as good defensively but he can be as good offensively.
I don't know. I'm still evaluating guys relative to their peer group. Debating the differences in the game between eras is impossible. And Carbonneau was the absolute elite of his peer group. Can Bournival be? I wouldn't think so.

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04-16-2013, 04:20 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
I don't know. I'm still evaluating guys relative to their peer group. Debating the differences in the game between eras is impossible. And Carbonneau was the absolute elite of his peer group. Can Bournival be? I wouldn't think so.
I'd say the closest players to Carbonneau in this NHL are Bergeron and Plekanec. Don't think Bournival will be that good.

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Old
04-16-2013, 08:09 PM
  #213
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I don't understand why any team would draft according to their current needs. It just doesn't make any sense, since the players drafted this year won't have an impact for 4 or 5 years on average. Can you seriously predict what the team's needs will be at that time? Won't management fill those current needs through other means?

You draft the BPA available in all cases.
Sure, but I've always seen BPA as an elastic concept. In the abstract, is a classic Russian attack winger better than a traditional Western Canadian "boeuf" defenceman? They're hardly comparable styles. I guess that you can rate each one on the basis of how good they project to be at their respective position. For example, the winger has good speed, great shot, but lousy vision, all relative to what a successful NHL attack winger needs to be. Just like, the defenceman has big fists, good positioning, but crappy lateral movement. So the winger (let's say) gets a ranking of 7 and the defenceman gets a ranking of 6.

But where does that get you, especially if you factor in likelihood to reach projected upside? If the defenceman has a lower projected ceiling but a greater chance of reaching it, which is the BPA? I would suggest that the question likely leads to a debate about which type of player is more valuable to have in the organization.

It would be great to hear from scouts or others who know. It just seems to me that BPA -- at the draft table -- is a complex evaluation that has to privilege certain factors over others, some of which have nothing to do with a side-by-side evaluation of each player according to some objective and generic matrix.

I would also think that having multiple picks in the top 60 factors into the risk tolerance. As in, a team might be more inclined to take a flyer on a boom-bust player than they would be if it had one pick in the top 90. Or, being armed with intelligence that another team in particular really likes a player who won't be around the next time the team picks, just as having the smug comfort that no other team has a particular player on their radar.

To be clear, I really mean to put this notion of BPA as an open question rather than a challenge to you. I see it every year in these draft threads, and frankly I just don't get how all the potential nuances actually work at the draft table or even before when making a master list leading up to the draft.

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Old
04-16-2013, 08:32 PM
  #214
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I'd like Carrier with any of our picks. I'm sure Morgan Ellis could vouch for him.

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04-16-2013, 09:47 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Souffle View Post
Sure, but I've always seen BPA as an elastic concept. In the abstract, is a classic Russian attack winger better than a traditional Western Canadian "boeuf" defenceman? They're hardly comparable styles. I guess that you can rate each one on the basis of how good they project to be at their respective position. For example, the winger has good speed, great shot, but lousy vision, all relative to what a successful NHL attack winger needs to be. Just like, the defenceman has big fists, good positioning, but crappy lateral movement. So the winger (let's say) gets a ranking of 7 and the defenceman gets a ranking of 6.

But where does that get you, especially if you factor in likelihood to reach projected upside? If the defenceman has a lower projected ceiling but a greater chance of reaching it, which is the BPA? I would suggest that the question likely leads to a debate about which type of player is more valuable to have in the organization.

It would be great to hear from scouts or others who know. It just seems to me that BPA -- at the draft table -- is a complex evaluation that has to privilege certain factors over others, some of which have nothing to do with a side-by-side evaluation of each player according to some objective and generic matrix.

I would also think that having multiple picks in the top 60 factors into the risk tolerance. As in, a team might be more inclined to take a flyer on a boom-bust player than they would be if it had one pick in the top 90. Or, being armed with intelligence that another team in particular really likes a player who won't be around the next time the team picks, just as having the smug comfort that no other team has a particular player on their radar.

To be clear, I really mean to put this notion of BPA as an open question rather than a challenge to you. I see it every year in these draft threads, and frankly I just don't get how all the potential nuances actually work at the draft table or even before when making a master list leading up to the draft.
Great post, I agree with everything, BPA is very suggestive. Would be nice if Grant gives us some insights about that...

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Old
04-16-2013, 10:11 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Souffle View Post
Sure, but I've always seen BPA as an elastic concept. In the abstract, is a classic Russian attack winger better than a traditional Western Canadian "boeuf" defenceman? They're hardly comparable styles. I guess that you can rate each one on the basis of how good they project to be at their respective position. For example, the winger has good speed, great shot, but lousy vision, all relative to what a successful NHL attack winger needs to be. Just like, the defenceman has big fists, good positioning, but crappy lateral movement. So the winger (let's say) gets a ranking of 7 and the defenceman gets a ranking of 6.

But where does that get you, especially if you factor in likelihood to reach projected upside? If the defenceman has a lower projected ceiling but a greater chance of reaching it, which is the BPA? I would suggest that the question likely leads to a debate about which type of player is more valuable to have in the organization.

It would be great to hear from scouts or others who know. It just seems to me that BPA -- at the draft table -- is a complex evaluation that has to privilege certain factors over others, some of which have nothing to do with a side-by-side evaluation of each player according to some objective and generic matrix.

I would also think that having multiple picks in the top 60 factors into the risk tolerance. As in, a team might be more inclined to take a flyer on a boom-bust player than they would be if it had one pick in the top 90. Or, being armed with intelligence that another team in particular really likes a player who won't be around the next time the team picks, just as having the smug comfort that no other team has a particular player on their radar.

To be clear, I really mean to put this notion of BPA as an open question rather than a challenge to you. I see it every year in these draft threads, and frankly I just don't get how all the potential nuances actually work at the draft table or even before when making a master list leading up to the draft.
I also agree. Great post

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Old
04-16-2013, 10:17 PM
  #217
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why no love for nic petan? 120 points at 18 in the W. No one else in this draft has as many points.

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04-16-2013, 10:19 PM
  #218
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why no love for nic petan? 120 points at 18 in the W. No one else in this draft has as many points.
His name popped many times through the draft threads.

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Old
04-16-2013, 10:23 PM
  #219
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I'd like Carrier with any of our picks. I'm sure Morgan Ellis could vouch for him.
I agree that's definitely as easy peazy as they get.My wonder is that in a draft year like this one why do Calg. CBJ. and Buff. have eight 1st round picks between them.It means five teams have traded their 1st picks off.Then there are eight 2nd round picks that also have been traded,the Habs have two of them so why is it that all of these picks have been traded off? This is the best kept secret in this year's Entry Draft at New Jersey,can you solve this mystery?

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04-16-2013, 10:31 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
I agree that's definitely as easy peazy as they get.My wonder is that in a draft year like this one why do Calg. CBJ. and Buff. have eight 1st round picks between them.It means five teams have traded their 1st picks off.Then there are eight 2nd round picks that also have been traded,the Habs have two of them so why is it that all of these picks have been traded off? This is the best kept secret in this year's Entry Draft at New Jersey,can you solve this mystery?
Teams want cup.

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Old
04-16-2013, 10:33 PM
  #221
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Teams want cup.
Overall it backfired pretty massively for Nashville. Take note people who wanted to sell the farm at the deadline.

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04-16-2013, 11:01 PM
  #222
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why no love for nic petan? 120 points at 18 in the W. No one else in this draft has as many points.
He is one of my favorite prospect coming from this draft. I would be ok to pick him in the 1st.

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Old
04-16-2013, 11:08 PM
  #223
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NSH pick now 35th overall. If CAR wins just 1 of their 2 games in hand, or loses twice in OT in those games in hand, they'd bump that pick up to 34th.

CGY pick remains 33rd overall.

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04-17-2013, 12:11 AM
  #224
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If Valeri Nichushkin drops, that would be a good reason to trade up.

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04-17-2013, 01:29 AM
  #225
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As a habs fan, if we would get one of those 3 guys with our first pick i would more than happy

-Bo Horvat
-Morgan Klimchuk
-Ryan Hartman

3 pick in the top 35 (27, 33 & 35) is very interesting for Bergevin & Timmins

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